bobmon@iuvax.UUCP (01/31/87)
In article <1373@bnrmtv.UUCP> perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes: > >I'm using an Adaptec RLL controller with a generic (i.e., cheap) hard >disk in my Compaq DeskPro. It works fine, and I'm now getting 30 Mb >instead of 20 Mb ... BUT I can't boot from hard disk anymore, since >Compaq's boot ROM (and Compaq DOS, too, but that's another story) >assumes 17 sectors/track. RLL encoding gives 25 sectors/track instead >of 17. Interesting...my Zenith documentation is quite sure of 17 sectors/track, but (after some initial difficulties with installation) I can boot off my Seagate drive/Adaptec controller. However, it ALWAYS checks the A drive first, even if I use the Monitor ROM and tell it to go directly to the hard disk. As long as I don't leave a disk in the A drive I'm okay, although it is just a trifle irritating to have it spin the A drive (it doesn't BELIEVE me?).
timothym@tekigm2.UUCP (02/04/87)
>In article <1373@bnrmtv.UUCP> perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes: >>I'm using an Adaptec RLL controller with a generic (i.e., cheap) hard >>disk in my Compaq DeskPro. It works fine, and I'm now getting 30 Mb >>instead of 20 Mb ... BUT I can't boot from hard disk anymore, since The problem may well be in how you formatted the hard disk. The BIOS that is located on the disk controller is what sets the disk parameters, the system BIOS on the motherboard only calls the HD BIOS when HD specific calls are made (actually the call is made anytime a disk request is made, and the HD BIOS then passes control back to system BIOS if the request is for floppy disk I/O), otherwise the controller has full and absolute control of what goes onto and off of the hard disk. All of the interface between the system and the controller deals in absolute cylinders and absolute sectors, but internal to the Adaptec 2070 the cylinder and sector count is converted to the proper logical sector then back into a relative head, cylinder, and sector number that applies to the RLL encodeing technique. The only thing that will affect booting is if the sector conversion in the Adaptec wil not let the OS write the correct sector for some reason. This is fairly unlikely... unless the sector is marked as defective which (by using RLL on a 'cheap' drive) is very likely. So, either you have formatted the disk improperly, or, cylinder 0, head 0, and sector 1 is marked defective. Good luck... (if you see the message XXXX bytes in bad tracks when you run CHKDSK, the problem is more than likely the second case). Oh yeah, I also recommend doing LOTS of backups until you are absolutely certain your data isn't slowing fading into the magnetic void (common on disks not designed or tested for RLL - Adaptec should have a notice to this effect in their documentation). -- Tim Margeson (206)253-5240 PO Box 3500 d/s C1-937 @@ 'Who said that?' Vancouver, WA. 98668 {amd..hplabs}cae780!tektronix!tekigm2!timothym (this changes daily)
perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (02/05/87)
[Tim was referring to my problem -- not being able to boot from a cheap (Disctron) hard disk formatted with an Adaptec 2070B RLL controller:] > So, either you have formatted the disk improperly, or, cylinder 0, head 0, and > sector 1 is marked defective. > > Good luck... (if you see the message XXXX bytes in bad tracks when you run > CHKDSK, the problem is more than likely the second case). > > Tim Margeson {amd..hplabs}cae780!tektronix!tekigm2!timothym I don't see ANY bytes in bad tracks from CHKDSK -- the bad sector marking is done at the controller level. I get a somewhat smaller disk capacity than would otherwise be the case, but there's an improvement in performance over having DOS manage bad clusters. I suppose there could be a problem at the physical boot location, but that wasn't on the list written on the disk drive. I could reformat it and check again, I suppose. -- {hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins --Henry Perkins It is better never to have been born. But who among us has such luck? One in a million, perhaps.
henkp@nikhefk.UUCP (02/08/87)
In article <1391@bnrmtv.UUCP> perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes: >[Tim was referring to my problem -- not being able to boot from a > cheap (Disctron) hard disk formatted with an Adaptec 2070B RLL > controller:] > Mostly the problem is (old) fdisk and format will only handle 17 sectors per track and not the 25 of the 2070. You must first run "fdisk" and "format c:" without "/s"!!! Now change byte 24 of trac 0 sector 0 from "11H" in "19H" and delete (change to zero) the 2 hidden system file names from the root directory. Run the "sys" program. Put your files on the disk. henk peek, henkp@nikhefk.UUCP seismo!mcvax!nikhefk!henkp.UUCP
paryavi@harris.cis.ksu.edu (Saiid Paryavi) (11/11/88)
Does anyone out there know if an RLL controller can be used on any drive.
If not, what are the constrainst on the hard drive that can support an RLL
controller.
Thanks
***/\/\****/\/\******/\/\****/\* Saiid Paryavi
**/*/\*\**/*/\*\****/*/\*\**/*/* paryavi@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu
*/*/**\*\/*/**\*\**/*/**\*\/*/** paryavi@ksuvax1.BITNET
*\/****\/\/****\*\/\/****\/\/*** {pyramid,ucsd}!ncr-sd!ncrwic!ksuvax1!paryavipjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (11/12/88)
Use an RLL controller ONLY with drives certified by their manufacturer
to be compatible with RLL operation.
--
Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800del@Data-IO.COM (Erik Lindberg) (11/14/88)
In article <400@mccc.UUCP> pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) writes: >Use an RLL controller ONLY with drives certified by their manufacturer >to be compatible with RLL operation. >-- Sigh. Here we go again... I think this piece of mis-information was started by a conspiracy between Western Digital and Seagate. And it keeps getting spread around and around. RLL was originally designed to work with *standard* hard drives. And it will, with any high quality drive/controller combination. Unfortunately, price seems to be the main criteria for purchases to most people, and WD and Seagate have filled that demand admirably, sacrificing performance (both of course have quality products available, but these aren't the most popular). Anyway, this is an old issue and I am tired of repeating the technical details (why didn't I just save a boilerplate to post?). I will just say that I have installed many non "RLL certified" drives and they work fine. Specifically, most Miniscribe drives and Maxtor drives are not "RLL certified" but will work with RLL (as long as you don't use the Western Digital 1002-27x controller). Many other drives will also work. I suspect Maxtor and Miniscribe "RLL certified" drives are not any different from their "regular" drives, but they are filling the public demand for "RLL certification". At a price. If you are a novice at hardware installation, and are purchasing both the drive and the controller new, it is good advice to stick with an RLL certified combination. If you already have a drive and are wondering whether it will work with RLL, buy an OMTI or Adaptec controller and try it. Contrary to some rumors you may hear it is not possible to damage your drive through the use of RLL. Again this is a result of WD 1002-27x 'ism. This controller will sometimes respond to certain drive conditions by locking up the machine, preventing the user from doing a low level format. The drive is not damaged, you will just have to format on a controller other than WD. -- del (Erik Lindberg) uw-beaver!tikal!pilchuck!del
jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) (11/15/88)
In article <1038@pilchuck.Data-IO.COM>, del@Data-IO.COM (Erik Lindberg) writes: > Sigh. Here we go again... I think this piece of mis-information was > started by a conspiracy between Western Digital and Seagate. And it > keeps getting spread around and around. > > RLL was originally designed to work with *standard* hard drives. And > it will, with any high quality drive/controller combination. [.....etc...] Absolutely! I have tried using a number of drives and have found that most drives are suitable for RLL use except for the very least expensive. I think the low-end is just marginally acceptable with MFM so any attempt to cram them with more data simply fails on that account. A real interesting com- bination (which I'm using now) is a Micropolis 1325 (71MB/MFM) and an Adap- tec 2070A controller for over 100MB. Micropolis specifies their drive for MFM only, and makes no mention of any other coding schemes. Informal (and inadvertent) temperature testing confirms this combination is stable over a wide range. Generally, I agree that drives built for industrial and commercial use are very conservatively spec'd. Many of the "smaller" drives are available as 'refurbs', or used. Sometimes the price of two of these drives is less than an equivalent new product - you get a spare, too.
bill@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Bill Gallagher) (11/15/88)
In article <77576@sun.uucp> jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) writes: > A real interesting com- >bination (which I'm using now) is a Micropolis 1325 (71MB/MFM) and an Adap- >tec 2070A controller for over 100MB. Micropolis specifies their drive for >MFM only, and makes no mention of any other coding schemes. Yow! I want to do this, too! Forgive me, but is there an AT class Hard/floppy "RLL" controller available? I have a Micropolis 1335 (very similar to 1325) and a WD controller (1003? It's *inside* the machine now). I would love to get extra bits out of that drive; isn't it amazing how the stuff you have expands to fit your storage capacity? Please *Mail* me suggestions or recommendations and I'll post if it's warranted. Thanks. -- Bill Gallagher aardvark@nmt.edu NMT Computer Center "What's that watermelon doing here?" Socorro, NM 87801 Drop bomb here--->[34 03'58"N/106 54'12"W]
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (11/18/88)
In article <1038@pilchuck.Data-IO.COM> del@pilchuck.Data-IO.COM (Erik Lindberg) writes: =In article <400@mccc.UUCP> pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) writes: =>Use an RLL controller ONLY with drives certified by their manufacturer =>to be compatible with RLL operation. =>-- = =Sigh. Here we go again... I think this piece of mis-information was =started by a conspiracy between Western Digital and Seagate. And it =keeps getting spread around and around. Erik, that was a recommendation, not a piece of information. = =RLL was originally designed to work with *standard* hard drives. On mainframes, not on micros. =And it will, with any high quality drive/controller combination. Define "high quality drive/controller combination" please. =I have installed many non "RLL certified" drives and they =work fine. Specifically, most Miniscribe drives and Maxtor drives =are not "RLL certified" but will work with RLL (as long as you don't =use the Western Digital 1002-27x controller). Many other drives will =also work. I suspect Maxtor and Miniscribe "RLL certified" drives are =not any different from their "regular" drives, but they are filling =the public demand for "RLL certification". At a price. Now if you would just tell us which Miniscribe and which Maxtor drives won't work with RLL, we'll be home free! =If you are a novice at hardware installation, and are purchasing =both the drive and the controller new, it is good advice to stick =with an RLL certified combination. If you already have a drive and =are wondering whether it will work with RLL, buy an OMTI or =Adaptec controller and try it. Be sure to back up your hard disk first. Then be scrupulous in backing up your work on the newly formatted disk. This is probably good advice to folks who aren't novices, although they probably don't need it. =del (Erik Lindberg) =uw-beaver!tikal!pilchuck!del What do I have in my XT clone? A Rodime 203E RLL-formatted to 48MB and an Adaptec 2070A controller. But I know what I'm doing (TONGUE-IN_CHEEK!!). Pete -- Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334 1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (11/23/88)
The reliability of RLL (or any self clocking recording) is influenced by
the accuracy of timing of the disk and the controller. The window is the
sum of the timing slop.
Like any product, disks and controllers have tolerances. If they are set
too tight the product cost gets very high, and if they're too low the
product is unreliable. Any non-RLL disk may still have timing margins
tight enough to run RLL. The RLL models (like ST238 vs ST225) are
testing to tighter requirements than the MFM models.
Disk controllers have a range, too, and any given controller may work
at the limit of the tolerance or half that. This all means that some MFM
disks will work for RLL, and some RLL controllers will require close
timing from the disk.
Now think about the stories you hear about good and bad products; the
person who has three Seagates which don't work well and then gets a
Miniscribe which works "for two years." Does he have a sloppy controller
which requires a really tight disk timing? Would a third Seagate have
been just as good?
Did the lady who was saying that Adaptek controllers are bad and that
she went to WD and had no trouble have bad controllers? Or was her disk
sloppy, and did she get a really good controller the last time around.
What you have is always "the best," since you would have something else
if it wasn't. I've been listening to the ST225 wars, with the people who
bought early ones say "it's been working for years, and I drag it up the
stairs every night with a rope," while others say "I had two old ones
and they were noisy, but the new one is okay." If the old one was bad
the first guy would have a new one, etc.
For the record, I have used non-RLL disks without problems, but I look
at the timing info on the data sheet when I can. I have been able to
find MFM disks which were close enough to pass for RLL. I have one disk
which has two tracks which "drift" as RLL and worked for months with
MFM. I have used Adaptek and Perstor and like them both. The old ST225
was not recommended for RLL use, Perstore says the new ones will work,
so I guess something other than the labels have changed.
Hope this helps clarify why people are having such disagreements about
disks and RLL. If they use a small number, or even a large number from
one batch, they may get results which don't match yours. Even the
shipper may be at fault, or where you are on the delivery route (the
package at the end of the route may get less love from a tired driver).
It's good that people report their experience, but bad when they say "I
had a bad one, they're all crap," or "mine has run for three years,
they're really reliable."
--
bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa)
{uunet | philabs}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -mepete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) (11/23/88)
In article <407@mccc.UUCP> pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) writes: >Now if you would just tell us which Miniscribe and which Maxtor drives >won't work with RLL, we'll be home free! >Be sure to back up your hard disk first. Then be scrupulous in backing >up your work on the newly formatted disk. This is probably good advice >to folks who aren't novices, although they probably don't need it. Of *course* you need to back up your hard disk before replacing the controller. That actually goes any time you replace the controller, even with the same model: there's no guarantee of data retention across a controller change for an MFM/RLL drive. But to the point: I posted a list of known RLL-able drives early this year. In summary: any drive is RLLable except for certain ST225's: those with S/N under 1,000,000 and/or rev level less than MLC3. I still have not experienced a single problem with an MFM->RLL upgrade that wasn't due to a controller problem. Pick the correct Adaptec controller and you'll have no pain! Pete (Holzmann, from Octopus) -- OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014 OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hpda,pyramid}!octopus!pete ___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (11/25/88)
In article <458@octopus.UUCP> pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) writes:
=Pick the correct Adaptec controller and you'll
=have no pain!
=
=Pete (Holzmann, from Octopus)
=--
= OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises
= OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014
= OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hpda,pyramid}!octopus!pete
=___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746
Hi, Pete! So, which one is the correct one? I have an old 2070A
running with a Rodime 203E, and that combo seems to be correct. But
what about the other Adaptecs?
And what about the Omti controller, a very inexpensive board for an XT??
Pete
--
Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800root@conexch.UUCP (Larry Dighera) (11/27/88)
In article <1453@nmtsun.nmt.edu> aardvark@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Bill Gallagher) writes: >In article <77576@sun.uucp> jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) writes: >> A real interesting com- >>bination (which I'm using now) is a Micropolis 1325 (71MB/MFM) and an Adap- >>tec 2070A controller for over 100MB. Micropolis specifies their drive for >>MFM only, and makes no mention of any other coding schemes. > >Yow! I want to do this, too! Forgive me, but is there an AT class >Hard/floppy "RLL" controller available? I have a Micropolis 1335 >(very similar to 1325) and a WD controller (1003? It's *inside* the >machine now). I would love to get extra bits out of that drive; isn't >it amazing how the stuff you have expands to fit your storage capacity? I don't want this to sound like a commercial message, but I do market the Adaptec ACB-2372 controller. It is a drop-in replacement for the WD-1003 controller so, it supports two floppy drives as well as two RLL hard drives. As Jim stated above, the Micropolis 1325 seems to work just fine when run with the RLL format. Many other drives work well also. In particular, Maxtor drives and virtually any hard drive which employes plated-media. If you can't find a source for the controller near you, I will be happy to fill orders for them as a service to the usenet community. Price is $195.00 plus shipping. You can place your order via e-mail, US Postal Service mail, or phone: Dighera Data Services Box 12100 Santa Ana, CA 92712 Phone: (714) 842-2862 -- USPS: The Consultants' Exchange, PO Box 12100, Santa Ana, CA 92712 TELE: (714) 842-6348: BBS (N81); (714) 842-5851: Xenix guest account (E71) UUCP: conexch Any ACU 2400 17148425851 ogin:-""-ogin:-""-ogin: nuucp UUCP: ...!uunet!turnkey!conexch!root || ...!trwrb!ucla-an!conexch!root
marvin@jungfrau.UUCP (Rico und Jan) (11/28/88)
In article <458@octopus.UUCP> pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) writes: >But to the point: I posted a list of known RLL-able drives early this >year. In summary: any drive is RLLable except for certain ST225's: those ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >with S/N under 1,000,000 and/or rev level less than MLC3. I still have >not experienced a single problem with an MFM->RLL upgrade that wasn't >due to a controller problem. Pick the correct Adaptec controller and you'll ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >have no pain! > >Pete (Holzmann, from Octopus) I have an Adaptec 4070 RLL controller and a Tandon TM262 harddisk which is a 20 Mega 3.5" MFM disk. I get a lot of read errors especially on the inner tracks of the disk. These errors occur not always, but more or less randomly and usualyy it's just a couple of bits per sector that are reversed. The outer half of the disk (the upper 300 cylinders) usually cause no problems. I've heard quite often, that Adaptec controllers are so great (and I don't doubt it), and I've also been told that the Tandon disk should have no problems with RLL, since they have plated media. But tell me anyone, why do I have all these reversed bits on the disk ??? Pete ?? Thanks, Tomas
keithe@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Keith Ericson) (11/29/88)
In article <14388@conexch.UUCP> root@conexch.UUCP (Larry Dighera) writes: [regarding the Adaptec 2732 RLL controller card:] >If you can't find a source for the controller near you, I will be happy >to fill orders for them as a service to the usenet community. Price is >$195.00 plus shipping. You can place your order via e-mail, US Postal >Service mail, or phone: > > Dighera Data Services > Box 12100 > Santa Ana, CA 92712 >Phone: > (714) 842-2862 > That's not a bad price, either. We (Tek) have a volume discount (500+ quantity prices, I think) contract with a local, well-known distributor that doesn't beat Larry's price by much. And, the Adaptec card is a _very_ nice piece of hardware. Highly recommended from here. keith
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (11/30/88)
Someone asked where to get Adaptek 2372 RLL controllers. I got mine from
"Lucky Computer" for $149. Fast delivery. 214-690-6110. I get the
Perstor PS180 from "Columbus Micro" 614-794-1981.
Both advertize regularly in PC Week and I am just a customer.
--
bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa)
{uunet | philabs}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -megk@kksys.mn.org (Greg Kemnitz) (01/20/89)
In article <4311@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM> keithe@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Keith Ericson) writes: >In article <14388@conexch.UUCP> root@conexch.UUCP (Larry Dighera) writes: > [regarding the Adaptec 2732 RLL controller card:] >>If you can't find a source for the controller near you, I will be happy >>to fill orders for them as a service to the usenet community. Price is >>$195.00 plus shipping. You can place your order via e-mail, US Postal >>Service mail, or phone: Dighera Data Services > >That's not a bad price, either. We (Tek) have a volume discount (500+ >quantity prices, I think) contract with a local, well-known distributor >that doesn't beat Larry's price by much. > >And, the Adaptec card is a _very_ nice piece of hardware. Highly >recommended from here. You should be able to find a better deal than $195 on this card. We have been selling them in single quantity for $169 for the last four months or so. It -IS- an excellent controller, however.... You may want to renegotiate prices on your 500 quantity contract. You appear to be paying a premium price, especially in the quantity you are buying. Greg Kemnitz / K and K Systems / PO Box 41804 / Plymouth, MN 55441-0804 Domain: gk@kksys.mn.org / UUCP: ...!rutgers!bungia!kksys!gk Voice: (612)475-1527 / Fax: (612)475-1979
pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) (01/21/89)
Prices... $195? Nahhh... $165? Good, but not great.
If somebody wants to do the net a favor, order from Entertainment Marketing
(nationwide, wholesale to resellers only) and sell them for $145 to the net.
You'll even make an OK profit at that price! I'd do it, but I've got no time...
(That price is based on their quantity one price, BTW...)
--
OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises
OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014
OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hpda,pyramid}!octopus!pete
___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746dve@zooid.UUCP (David Mason) (10/09/90)
I posted this question a few days ago, but I think there was a problem, so... I bought a Western Digital clone (licensed chipset) RLL controller for my formerly MFM drive. The drive is a Micropolis full height 1325 70mb 28ms unit with 1024 cylinders, 8 heads, wpcomp is 512 (I'm not sure what this last one is so please don't ask me to elaborate). The controller has a built in BIOS which contains a formatting program (at address cc00:5). However, I was not able to successfully use the BIOS formatter. For example, when I first started it, it listed the stats as all zeros (cylinders, etc). Then I chose the option to change the setup and ste it to match my drive types. When I went back in they were wrong again - set to something like 623 cylinders, etc. I then disabled the BIOS and used the SpeedStor program. I WAS able to format the drive and DOS format it within Speedstor to 110 megs, but when I rebooted my machine the AMI BIOS didn't recognize the drive and neither did FDISK. I tried setting the CMOS to my drive type (36 in this case, which is for MFM) and then used the "user-defined" drive type and set sectors to 26 (or 27, I forget which, but I tried both). Still no luck. I had to put the old controller back in and restore. I really would like to get this controller working but I don't want to go throught the backup/format/restore procedure until I have some concrete ideas. The controller is called a "WA6-VR" and is a 1:1 16-bit floppy/hard disk RLL only controller. I believe it is the same as the Western Digital WA-1006. The computer is a 25mhz 386 with no caching and a recent AMI BIOS. I tried disabling the shadow RAM, etc, all to no avail. If there are ANY ideas out there, I would sincerely appreciate them. Someone suggested to me that setting the AMI drive type to 0 and letting the controller BIOS control the drive would work, but I didn't think this would be right with an RLL controller. I know some SCSI and ESDI drives work this way but I am under the impression that RLL works under DOS and I think that letting the controller control the drive might cause some problems with utility programs that depend on the CMOS settings. Let me say right here that, yes, I know the Adaptec ARLL controller is realy nifty but I can't afford one right now so that's not a solution. And also I know some people believe that formatting an MFM drive to RLL is evil but I also happen to know that even if it is a bad idea it will format and work RLL ... at least for a while (until, if the drive is too weak for RLL, it eventually starts degenerating). I really need a solution.. my MFM drive is too small and I can't afford another right now, and also the MFM controller I have is 2:1 and I need the extra speed that the 1:1 and RLL controller provides. Thanks in advance for any suggestions (I HOPE!!!)