mic@lapis.berkeley.edu.UUCP (06/17/87)
I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but nobody has yet answered my questions. Let me repeat them. Any words of wisdom can be shared on the net as the volume is low in this newsground anyhow, and I am never able to send thank you notes by e-mail as my mailman doesn't recognise half the destinations (as any good mailman in real life by the way). Questions: 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? Is the mouse included? Keyboard? What is the chip at the heart of the machine? How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? What is the speed of the hard- disk? Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? Is the famouns SimulTask included? In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like the DOS boxes?? 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and how can you contact it? How long is the warranty? Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. Awaiting your answers, Michel Bruneau
rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (06/19/87)
In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: > I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the > UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but > nobody has yet answered my questions. Let me repeat them. Any words of > wisdom can be shared on the net as the volume is low in this newsground > anyhow, and I am never able to send thank you notes by e-mail as my > mailman doesn't recognise half the destinations (as any good mailman in real > life by the way). > Questions: > 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? yes, monichrome graphics. <perminatly attached> > Is the mouse included? yes. > Keyboard? yes. > What is the chip at the heart of the machine? 68000 of some sort. > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? Speed is moderate, but I HATE the STUPID OFFICE WINDOW enviroment. I slows things down and screws them up. > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? yes, but some versions of the os trash their swap space if you don't run shutdown every couple of days. > What is the speed of the hard- disk? Don't Know. but it usually makes an auful racket. > Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... No, you can put in more, but I dont know how much, their are only three (3) slots so pick and chose [a dual line phone controler with one built-in modem, and a serial and parallel port is included. > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 Yes, faster clock and extra electronics improve the machine beyond human belief. Real difference [and bigger case] but I don't know the details. > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? slightly larger box in general [all demensions] and the monitor sits up on an extra inch or so of pedistal [added to contain some extra electronics. > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? yes, "DOS-73" card. 640k herc/monichrome graphics/ms-mouse effective behavior. modem is com1, diskette is "A" and modt functions similarly mapped. Print is spooled. > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? Not hayes compatable [though the dos-73 does some compatibility buisness [don't remember the details.] > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? Yes, but it can be a pain. > Is the famouns SimulTask included? not per say, but the dos-73 driver does window the dos partition. > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? no. no. and no. > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > the DOS boxes?? Shutting it down is just about manditory on a periodioc basis for system V rel 3 or eirler <not realy those versions and behaviors. The OS is a bastard of SVR1.x and Sun (or something) courne shell and all> > 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? 7300, I think yes <maybe>, 3B1 definatly not. > What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and > how can you contact it? Dont know. > How long is the warranty? Dont know. > Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? They claim so to us. > > That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated > as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for > a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. I would maby buy the 3B1, but the 7300's I have been exposed to tent to disapoint me. They have a bastard child for UNIX. It does not function consistantly and is suspended between SVR3 and System 7. All you get is the user environment and ed. No cc, vi, nroff, make, or electronic mail, though uucp is in place their is no mailx or mail window, included in the standard software release. all these things are available for extra, everything mentioned above comes in the development set. We don't have 3.5 yet, but terminal sessions, and some other functions lock up from time to time. Usually because of swap space corruption. I say buy at you own risk. Robert. Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by random excursions into a wilderness of abstractions and incipient ideas that the practical purposes of the moment are often submerged in my consciousness and I don't know what I'm doing. [my employers cirtanily have no idea]
daveb@rtech.UUCP (06/19/87)
[ Questions answered in line ] In <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mic@lapis.berkeley.edu(Michel Bruneau) writes: >I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the >UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but >nobody has yet answered my questions. Let me repeat them. Any words of >wisdom can be shared on the net as the volume is low in this newsground >anyhow, and I am never able to send thank you notes by e-mail as my >mailman doesn't recognise half the destinations (as any good mailman in real >life by the way). >Questions: >1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? >Is the mouse included? >Keyboard? >What is the chip at the heart of the machine? >How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? Includes keyboard, mouse, monochrome (green) monitor. Other monitors (like) white) are available from Amperfax for around $150-200. >Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? Yes, very much so. Around 1100 dhrystones, about the same class compute-wise as a VAX 750 or a Sun-2. It is NOT a screamer like a 68020 Sun, but it cost a LOT less. As noted below, you want more than 1M memory. >What is the speed of the hard- disk? The 10 & 20M drives on the 7300 are 85ms slugs. You can either get a 3b1 instead, or replace the drive with any 7 head st506 1/2 high. A Full high can be installed if you get the 3b1 case top, which is about $72 from AT&T. Regretabbly, I've lost the select code. Or you can hang some wires out the case, which is what I've done. >Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... The 7300 is limited to 2-1/2M, 2M expansion, 512k on the motherboard. >Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 >(i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? The top is a bit thicker to house a full height drive. >Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? Yes, though it isn't a whole lot cheaper than a Brand-X clone. >I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? >2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? The modem is built in. It is not hayes compaatable, but you never need to deal with it. The essential software (cu and uucp) know how to talk to it directly. Programs can dial/answer the phone using library calls in C. >Is the famouns SimulTask included? Nope. >In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of >the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? No f77 or troff. The current (3.5) software gives you C with long identifiers. The previous (2.0 and 3.0) limited you to 8 character identifiers. I suspect the two packages (Base system and "Unix Utilities") are available for less than the $700 you quote. >Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it >on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like >the DOS boxes?? It takes maybe 5 minutes to boot. I don't turn mine off. Right now I'm at home, cu-ed to work where I'm reading news. It has been up since May 27th, when I had some power problems. >3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? At these prices, It's a good bet. >What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and >how can you contact it? There is an alternate news feed (unix-pc.general), with several bay area sites. >How long is the warranty? 90 days, I think, which is typical. >Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? A good question. There are many of them internal to AT&T, so it is quite possible that there will be support after the machine is axed from the product line. Or, us on the outside may be left in the cold while the internal users get what they want. Or, eveybody is goind to be hung out to dry. >That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated >as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for >a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. > >Awaiting your answers, Michel Bruneau If you want a UNIX machine at home with minium hassle and low price, look no further. This is a real deal. I strongly recommend getting a machine with 2M of memory instead of 1M, and the price on the big 3b1 is still quite reasonable. So good, I'm thinking about getting myself another one for spares. Let me know if you find anyone local willing to make you a deal. -dB -- {amdahl, cbosgd, mtxinu, ptsfa, sun}!rtech!daveb daveb@rtech.uucp
mr@homxb.UUCP (06/19/87)
In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: > I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the > UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but > nobody has yet answered my questions. Let me repeat them. Any words of > wisdom can be shared on the net as the volume is low in this newsground > anyhow, and I am never able to send thank you notes by e-mail as my > mailman doesn't recognise half the destinations (as any good mailman in real > life by the way). > Questions: > 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? MONO > Is the mouse included? YES > Keyboard? YES > What is the chip at the heart of the machine? 68000 > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? 12 MHZ (I THINK) AND UNIX DOES SLOW IT SLIGHTLY. > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? NOT WITH A 20 MB. DISK DRIVE. YOU NEED AT LEAST 40, PREFERABLY 70 MB. > What is the speed of the hard- disk? ?? > Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... NO, THERE ARE MEMORY BOARDS AVAILABLE UP TO 4 MEG. (I THINK) > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 NOT EXTERNALLY > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? SAME > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? IT IS CALLED THE DOS-73 BOARD AND COMES WITH 1/2 MEG OF MEMORY AND WORKS REASONABLY WELL. > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? YES, NO. IT IS MORE THAN A MODEM, IT IS A TELEPHONE MANAGER (2 LINES). > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? YES. CUTE WINDOWS. > Is the famouns SimulTask included? NO, THAT IS A PRODUCT FOR THE 6300+. > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? PROBABLY, IF YOU INTEND TO DO ANYTHING SERIOUS WITH THE MACHINE. > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > the DOS boxes?? IT TAKES A WHILE, BUT NOT AN ETERNITY. IT IS RECOMMENDED TO LEAVE IT ON AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. > 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? SOMEDAY, OF COURSE. > What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and > how can you contact it? ?? > How long is the warranty? PROBABLY 1 YEAR. > Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? I AM SURE THEY WILL. > > That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated > as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for > a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. > > Awaiting your answers, Michel Bruneau Hope this helps. mark homxb!mr
lgm@ihwpt.ATT.COM (larry mayka) (06/20/87)
Answers to at least some of Michel Bruneau's questions on the UNIX PC: - Quoted prices, such as the $785 I reported in an earlier posting, almost always include a full complement of hardware: + High-res (720 x 348?) monochrome monitor; color not available + Internal 300/1200 baud modem; Hayes-compatible, I think + Keyboard with 103 keys + Mouse with 3 buttons + 360 K floppy disk drive + RS-232 serial port + Centronics parallel port as well as the advertised hard disk drive. - Microprocessor is a Motorola 68010 running at 10 MHz. - Implementation of UNIX Operating System is reportedly an efficient one. - 20 MB disk drives have about 85-ms access time, I think; 40 MB, 67 MB drives are about 28 ms. - Model 7300 can go at least up to 2.5 MB of RAM; 3B1 Computer has 4 MB RAM capacity (the maximum addressing range of a 68010, right?). - 3B1 Computer has some extra room in the base for a full-height disk drive (the Model 7300 can only fit a half-height drive); otherwise, the two models have the same external design. - The DOS-73 Coprocessor Board, available at extra cost, allows one to run most MS-DOS programs that are not copy-protected, even those requiring Hercules graphics. The board includes software to run it. - System Software v. 3.5, such as reported for $210 in my earlier posting, includes: + UNIX System V Release 2 + Window- and menu-based user interface (can also be bypassed for direct access to shell) + Communications management (including for modem and RS-232 port) + Diagnostics + UUCP + Print spooler - UNIX System Utilities 3.5, at extra cost, includes programs like + C development tools like cc, make, and SCCS + Documenting tools like nroff + Editors like vi + Libraries like curses/terminfo As far as I know, f77 and troff are not included. - Warranty is 90 days. Note that I am merely a would-be user who has done some research on the machine he's buying - I have no connection with the division of AT&T responsible for personal computer products. Larry Mayka (312) 979-2766 ihnp4!ihwpt!lgm Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of AT&T.
ark@alice.UUCP (06/20/87)
In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu.UUCP writes: > I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the > UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but > nobody has yet answered my questions. Let me repeat them. Any words of > wisdom can be shared on the net as the volume is low in this newsground > anyhow, and I am never able to send thank you notes by e-mail as my > mailman doesn't recognise half the destinations (as any good mailman in real > life by the way). > Questions: > 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? > Is the mouse included? > Keyboard? A monochrome (green) monitor, keyboard, and mouse are ordinarily included. > What is the chip at the heart of the machine? > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? Motorola 68010. Don't know clock rate; about as fast as a VAX 780 but only softare floating point. > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? Yes. > What is the speed of the hard- disk? Dunno. Depends on the disk you get. > Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... No. You can buy a 2 meg expansion board. I think there's a total limit of 4 meg but 2.5 is the largest I've personally used. > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? Same cabinet, more memory. Basically not much difference. > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? Yes. The card has an 8086, 512K of memory, and a socket for an 8087. The compatibility card also has a serial port. > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? Yes and no, respectively. > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? Yes, including uucp and mail. > Is the famouns SimulTask included? No, it's not relevant to the 7300. > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? Yes, no, and no, respectively. Vi is in the optional "utilities" package, as is nroff. I don't think troff is available. > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > the DOS boxes?? It takes a few minutes to boot. You can shut it down but you should ask it to stop processes, etc. first.
randy@chinet.UUCP (Randy Suess) (06/20/87)
Sheese!!! In article <687@nu3b2.UUCP> (Robert C. White Jr.) writes: ]In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU], (Michel Bruneau) writes: ]] What is the chip at the heart of the machine? ] 68000 of some sort. 10 Mhz 68010 ]] How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? ] Speed is moderate, but I HATE the STUPID OFFICE WINDOW ] enviroment. I slows things down and screws them up. So what! I hardly ever run with windows. Only a full screen. Being able to pop open a window to do another task is great. It is about 3 times as fast as my 3b2. ]] Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? ] yes, but some versions of the os trash their swap space if ] you don't run shutdown every couple of days. The latest release (3.5, out for almost a year) is stone reliable. My 7300 acts as a news feed for a number of sites in the Chicago area, and has not been rebooted for over 4 months. ]] What is the speed of the hard- disk? ] Don't Know. but it usually makes an auful racket. Depends on the HD. The 7300 came with a slow 85 ms 20 meg half height. The 3b1's come with 28 to 35 ms 67 or 40 meg full heights. Nice and fast and quiet. ]] Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... ] No, you can put in more, but I dont know how much, their are 7300 comes with 1 meg, upgradeable to 2.5. The 3b1 comes with 2 megs upgradeable to over 3. ]] 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? ] Yes, but it can be a pain. The internal modem is completely supported byt the op sys. uucp, cu, the menu driven (hot key activated) fone dialer all support the modem. There is a library for user written code. Most common external modems (hayes, etc.) are also supported for the above using an included modemcap. ]] In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of ]] the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? ] no. no. and no. Yes, no, no. The base runtime costs about 195 and includes uucp. The development system costs about 350 and includes the rest. nroff, terminfo, etc are supplied. ]] Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it ]] on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like ]] the DOS boxes?? ] Shutting it down is just about manditory on a periodioc basis ] for system V rel 3 or eirler <not realy those versions and ] behaviors. The OS is a bastard of SVR1.x and Sun (or something) ] courne shell and all] Again., no need to shut down. Takes about 5 minutes to boot from dead start. Has a settable screen timout feature, so you can just leave it on. When I had it at home, running 3.0, it you get knocked off the air by stray cats and kids now and then. Upon rebooting, *never* lost a file.. The unix is a cross between SysVr1 and SysVr2. Long names in the compiler. Terminfo. Old crontab. Decent uucp. It compiles the ELM mailer and news 2.11 just fine. Can't say the same for Microport SysVr2... ]] What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and ]] how can you contact it? ] Dont know. If you get a 3b1, send me mail, and I will mail you a disk with THE STORE's software and directions for getting catalogs. ]] How long is the warranty? ] Dont know. 90 days. (AT&T) ]I say buy at you own risk. For 1606, getting a 28 ms 80 meg drive (list 1500), 10 mhz 6801, internal modem, 2 megs memory, and the support of the VAR you buy it from and AT&T, you've *got* to be kidding! If you want a UNIX box, there is no other deal around, and probably won't ever be again. The price is ridiculously low, for a very good machine. (I bought the original 7300 4 years ago when they first came out for ~5000. I just now bought 2 more 3b1's. UNIX is my hobby, no affiliation with AT&T) -- that's the biz, sweetheart..... Randy Suess ..!ihnp4!chinet!randy
dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (06/21/87)
> 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? > Is the mouse included? > Keyboard? A unix PC is a one piece unit that is real snazzily designed. The monitor is affixed to the top so it is not removable and it is monochrome. Mouse and keyboard are included and they also can nest on a shelf on the front but that blocks the floppy drive. Looks real high tech, in fact I just saw one in "The Secret of my Success" the latest MJ Fox movie. The fli (female love interest) was typing on one the first time he barges into her office. > What is the chip at the heart of the machine? A 10Mhz 68010 with some sort of MMU and I suspect some wait states especially since the memory seems to be of the 150ns variety. > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? It is pretty quick I've found the speed quite acceptable. The only thing which seems to be noticeably slow is the phone manager. Speed is awfully subjective. The only benchmark I know for the machine is dhrystones and it does 973 (NOREG) 1034 (REGS) which is around an 8 Mhz large model 80286. Mind you dhrystones are not the be all and end all of existence. For floating point you are better of with a clone as the machine has no FP processor. > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? I have found it quite acceptable. > What is the speed of the hard- disk? Don't know the speed of the 20M but suspect it to be 60ms+ avg access (it is fairly slow). The 40M or higher capacity drives are 28ms. If you plan to use the machine multi-user at all the high capacity drives make the machine pretty reasonable at time sharing otherwise it is somewhat grim. > Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... The machine has three slots. Expansion memory in the slots can be up to 2M, memory on the motherboard can be up to 2M. The typical 7300 has 512K on the motherboard and 1 512K expansion card. (the 1M machine comes with 1) for a total of 2M. > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? Same except a block under the monitor to accomodate a full height drive. > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? DOS-73 card. don't know anything else about it. > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? No. It is controlled directly from ioctl calls. > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? Depends on what you mean. There is a built in vt100 terminal emulator with XMODEM which uses it via the phone manager. cu and uucp also work with it. If you want to use it you can invoke it via ioctl's or the dial/undial calls. > Is the famouns SimulTask included? That is 6300 stuff not 7300. > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? ^ yes ^ no and ^ no > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > the DOS boxes?? I does take a little while to boot up (on the order of a few minutes). It can be shutdown if you follow the shutdown sequence (I do it all the time). The only problem with this is that you have to manually run some things that would otherwise be automagically run by cron to cleanup some system files so their sizes don't get excessive. They don't typically grow real fast so it isn't a major problem. > 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? I would bet on it. > What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and > how can you contact it? The is a network based on news software but I don't know any contact points. Apparently AT&T has some sort of software tools BBS but it isn't 7300 specific, however I expect it has some 7300 tools I don't know the number for it. > How long is the warranty? Software 90 days including phone hotline support. Hardware also 90 days. > Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? Got no idea. > These would be unbelievable prices for > a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. > In my opinion the box is far from useless. At the price it's going for it is a real steal. Being realistic, however, if you want support or service it isn't probably a great idea. I suspect that 3.5 is the last gasp for software development that AT&T will do for the 7300. Service after the warranty period even if you can get it would most likely cost more than buying two machines. I spent more than $1500 on my Amiga and while it had superior capabilities in the graphics and sound area the UNIX pc has a hard disk, unix, a built-in modem and a hell of a lot of software for the same amount of money. For software development it is still a heck of a machine. David Albrecht
dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (06/21/87)
> (the 1M machine comes with 1) for a total of 2M.
Ahem, let's see .5 + .5 = ? Whoops. Never said I could add, try 1M.dpw@unisec.usi.com (Darryl P. Wagoner) (06/21/87)
In article <687@nu3b2.UUCP> rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes: >In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: >> Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? > yes, but some versions of the os trash their swap space if > you don't run shutdown every couple of days. I have never had any problem with swap space being trashed, either on 3.0 or 3.5. >> What is the speed of the hard- disk? > Don't Know. but it usually makes an auful racket. The 20 Meg is 85ms and indeed it does make a auful racket. >> Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... > No, you can put in more, but I dont know how much, their are > only three (3) slots so pick and chose [a dual line phone > controler with one built-in modem, and a serial and parallel > port is included. It can be upgrade to 4 meg by adding a meg to the mother board and adding a 2 meg card. Amperfax can upgrade the mother. >> Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 > Yes, faster clock and extra electronics improve the machine > beyond human belief. Real difference [and bigger case] but > I don't know the details. Really? I have never heard this. Can someone confirm this? I know the disk drives in the 3b1 are 30ms or better which would help. But a faster clock and extra electronics I don't thinks so. >> Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it >> on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like >> the DOS boxes?? > Shutting it down is just about manditory on a periodioc basis > for system V rel 3 or eirler <not realy those versions and > behaviors. The OS is a bastard of SVR1.x and Sun (or something) > courne shell and all> The OS is not a bastard of anything. I have worked with many different favors of Unix including SVR2, BSD4.[123], Suns and Pyramids. The only thing this kernel doesn't have that a normal SVR1.x would have is accounting. But is also has paging, shared library and BSD ls & more. Many of the programs ex: more, compress, path, id and other have been pulled in from other places if that is what you mean by a bastard OS. But those are just utilities. >> What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and Yes I am willing to support a number new news feeds for the Unix PC network. >> How long is the warranty? 90 Days on site. >> >> That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated >> as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for >> a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. If you are into Unix it wouldn't be a useless box. If you are expecting a MS-DOS style with the base of programs for it, you are out of luck. They are as limited as any other Unix system. >I would maby buy the 3B1, but the 7300's I have been exposed to tent to >disapoint me. They have a bastard child for UNIX. It does not function >consistantly and is suspended between SVR3 and System 7. All you get is >the user environment and ed. No cc, vi, nroff, make, or electronic mail, >though uucp is in place their is no mailx or mail window, included in the >standard software release. all these things are available for extra, >everything mentioned above comes in the development set. It is true that the development set is not included. This is also true of the 3b2, 3b5 and up. AT&T has went will selling them separtate. Of course this is true of PC and you get a lot more bang for your buck with the development set and you could trying to buy the same on MS-DOS. >We don't have 3.5 yet, but terminal sessions, and some other functions >lock up from time to time. Usually because of swap space corruption. You should upgrade. -- Darryl Wagoner UniSecure Systems, Inc.; dpw@unisec.usi.com Newport, RI; (401)-849-0857 UUCP: {gatech|mirror|cbosgd|uiucdcs|ihnp4}!rayssd!unisec!dpw
dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (06/21/87)
In article <687@nu3b2.UUCP>, rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes: > > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? > Speed is moderate, but I HATE the STUPID OFFICE WINDOW > enviroment. I slows things down and screws them up. I think the user agent environment is really nice. It makes administrative tasks easy, you can pop a new window real easy just by clicking the 'w' gadget. It is a necessity, however, to go in an modify the > > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? > yes, "DOS-73" card. 640k herc/monichrome graphics/ms-mouse > effective behavior. modem is com1, diskette is "A" and > modt functions similarly mapped. Print is spooled. > > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? > Not hayes compatable [though the dos-73 does some compatibility > buisness [don't remember the details.] > > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? > Yes, but it can be a pain. > > Is the famouns SimulTask included? > not per say, but the dos-73 driver does window the dos partition. > > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of '/usr/lib/ua/Office' file to make the shell pop with a full screen borderless window (A bordered unix window is a pain in the a**). Once you do that you don't even notice the UA is around unless you want to use it. > > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? > yes, but some versions of the os trash their swap space if > you don't run shutdown every couple of days. Never had this happen with versions 3.0 or 3.5, 2.0 was junk. > > What is the speed of the hard- disk? The 20M miniscribe is pretty noisy. > > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 > Yes, faster clock and extra electronics improve the machine > beyond human belief. Real difference [and bigger case] but > I don't know the details. > > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? > slightly larger box in general [all demensions] and the monitor > sits up on an extra inch or so of pedistal [added to contain some > extra electronics. Horsepucky!, the differences are a full height (and faster) disk drive. A larger power supply to support said disk drive and a block underneath the monitor to put the full height drive in. I think some 3b1s have more memory on the motherboard as well. THAT IS IT. No bigger case in general, no faster processor, no fancy electronics. > > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? > no. no. and no. ^ Wrongo The enhanced editor set includes vi. > > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > > the DOS boxes?? > Shutting it down is just about manditory on a periodioc basis > for system V rel 3 or eirler <not realy those versions and > behaviors. The OS is a bastard of SVR1.x and Sun (or something) > courne shell and all> Don't have any idea what you are talking about I have known people that leave theirs on all the time with no problems. > > 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? > 7300, I think yes <maybe>, 3B1 definatly not. As the 3b1 and the 7300 are virtually the same machine I suspect they are both going to be discontinued and AT&T will probably stick to merchandising the 3b2 boxes based on their proprietary processor. > > I would maby buy the 3B1, but the 7300's I have been exposed to tent to > disapoint me. They have a bastard child for UNIX. It does not function > consistantly and is suspended between SVR3 and System 7. All you get is > the user environment and ed. No cc, vi, nroff, make, or electronic mail, > though uucp is in place their is no mailx or mail window, included in the > standard software release. all these things are available for extra, > everything mentioned above comes in the development set. > > We don't have 3.5 yet, but terminal sessions, and some other functions > lock up from time to time. Usually because of swap space corruption. > > I say buy at you own risk. > > Robert. > I have never had a terminal session lock up. The phone manager in 3.0 was less than perfect in that it would stop being able to dial out for some funky reason but I never had it lock up. The 3.5 phone manager is much more reliable but also much slower (i.e. the 3.5 phone manager is a real dog). I think the author of this response is confusing the 3b2 line with the 3b1 line. They are not the same. The 3b1 is simply a slight hardware expansion of the 7300 incorporating a bigger disk, larger power supply and (possible) more memory on the motherboard. Software wise there is NO DIFFERENCE between the two machines. The 3b2 is based on the Western Digital chip set and using COMPLETELY DIFFERENT hardware, software, etc. Interestingly enough my girlfriend in working on her Phd. in CS has had opportunity to use a 3b5 and likes the 7300 much better. True, the Western Digital processors have a more 'stock' unix but most of the stuff I take off the net meant for SYSV compiles and runs with little or no modification so I can't complain. I've never used ANY unix that I would call 'consistent', if you mean by 'consistent' conforming to a particular AT&T release then I will grant the point otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about. Certainly it has been made quite clear that it isn't a reasonable system without purchasing the 'Unix utilities' but who cares? the solution is simple BUY THE UNIX UTILITIES. It certainly is a buy at your own risk proposition. I suspect that AT&T will soon drop the machine from the line. I also suspect that 3.5 will probably be that last version of the software available for the machine. The degree of compatability it has now with respect to Sys V rel 2 is probably as good as it is going to get. If you dream of SYS V rel 3 compatability you should probably look elsewhere. David Albrecht
boissier@intvax.UUCP (Peter Thor Boissiere) (06/22/87)
in article <687@nu3b2.UUCP>, rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) says: > > In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: >> I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the >> UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but ^^^^ Wrong, AT&T is selling Unix 3.5 for $244.00, and the much needed utility package ( vi, cc, nroff, etc.) for $352.00, total about $600.00 . >> In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of >> the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? > no. no. and no. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ YES YES and YES!
vanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (06/23/87)
In article <269@intvax.UUCP> boissier@intvax.UUCP (Peter Thor Boissiere) writes: >in article <687@nu3b2.UUCP>, rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) says: >> >> In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: >>> I have been following the discussion about the sale of the century for the >>> UNIX-PC. It is very interesting ($800 hardware, $700 software rigth?), but > ^^^^ > Wrong, AT&T is selling Unix 3.5 for $244.00, and the much > needed utility package ( vi, cc, nroff, etc.) for $352.00, ^^^^^^^ total about $600.00 . Wrong, AT&T is selling the utility package for $225. I ordered it 2 weeks ago and received it 1 week ago in preparation for the 3B1 I'm getting soon. You can order via credit card by calling 800-527-6888. They also quoted me a price of $935 on a tape backup system and $275 on the DOS73 board (which they said would run only 75% of the IBM PC software that's out there). If anyone knows of a cheaper tape backup system, please post or email to me. Thanks. I don't know what they're selling Unix 3.5 for since it's coming with my 3B1. -- Marnix (ain't unix!) A. van\ Ammers Work: (415) 545-8334 Home: (707) 644-9781 CEO: MAVANAMMERS:UNIX UUCP: {ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70 ** deterministic finite automaton crossing **
rps@homxc.UUCP (06/24/87)
In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: > Questions: > 1) Hardware: For $800, is the monitor included, color or monochrome? built-in monochrome, not removeable, no options. Screen is same as PC6300 screen, green phosphor, high resolution. > Is the mouse included? yes, 3 button, attaches to kbd, proprietary design, mechanical ball. > Keyboard? yes > What is the chip at the heart of the machine? motorola 68010 > How fast is it? How fast can it run with Unix slowing it up? The machine only runs Unix, it does ok. With a 20 meg Harddisk it is like using a VAX 11/780 with 10 people logged in. > Is the machine powerfull enough to carry the weigth of Unix? It has to be, that's all it runs. > What is the speed of the hard- disk? 20 meg is 65ms > Is the 1 Meg ram the limit on the model 7300... no, you can deploy another 3 for a total of 4. Unix will then page in ram instead of on disk. > Are the 3B1 models different that the very handsome 7300 > (i.e. are they the same box or do they consists of bigger clanky boxes)? a 3B1 is a 7300 is a UnixPC with a 20 meg HD and 1 meg ram. > Is there a compatibility card that allows running MSDOS? an add in card called the DOS73 board, they used to give it away with the machine. It provides Hercules Graphic Adapter compatibility and will run well behaved software and Lotus123. It is not exactly fast. Dos runs as window in unix. > I heard the Modem is included? Is it Hayes compatible? propritary modem with a fabulous telephone management package. Keeps track of incomming (!), outgoing, and data calls on two lines (yes, two modems). It is not hayes compatible but the Unix on the machine knows how to use it. > 2) Software: Is the software to run the modem included? as above, yes. This includes the unix programs CU, UUCP, CT, and some others. > Is the famouns SimulTask included? Simultask is an implementation of Unix for the AT&T PC6300+. It is a completely unrelated product for a whole nother computer. > In the$700 of software that is deemed essential, is there a version of > the vi editor included, and what about f77 and troff?? As far as I have heard, for about $1000 you get software and hardware. Yes vi is included. No, there is no f77 or troff included, I am not even sure if troff is available any where for this machine but I know F77 is. > Does it take an eternity to boot it up, and do you have to leave it > on all the time, or can you just shut it off every now and then like > the DOS boxes?? You generally leave it on all the time, just like a mainframe. The unix chron processes (that run in the background) get disoriented and complain if the machine is constantly being turned on and off. It takes about 5 minutes or so to boot up, an annoyingly long time. > 3) Generalities: Is this model going to be discontinued? Probably by AT&T but that's just my speculation. I believe Convergent Technologies, who makes it for AT&T will continue to sell it. > What is the name of that UNIX-PC bulletin board somebody mentionned and > how can you contact it? can't help you here. > How long is the warranty? 90 days > Is AT&T going to support it for long if it discontinues the line? don't know what the policy is on that but probably to some extent. > > That is a lot of essential questions, and any partial answer is appreciated > as I am very tempted by the prices.. These would be unbelievable prices for > a usefull and good machine, but a tad expensive for a useless box. > > Awaiting your answers, Michel Bruneau Russ Sharples homxc!rps NOTE: The above in NO WAY reflects the opinions of AT&T. These opinions are my own and the results of un-scientific and highly irregular analysis methods.
rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) (06/24/87)
In article <1007@unisec.usi.com>, dpw@unisec.usi.com (Darryl P. Wagoner) writes: + In article <687@nu3b2.UUCP> rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes: + >In article <3980@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, mic@lapis.berkeley.edu (Michel Bruneau) writes: + + I have never had any problem with swap space being trashed, either on 3.0 or + 3.5. + > Yes, faster clock and extra electronics improve the machine + > beyond human belief. Real difference [and bigger case] but + > I don't know the details. + + Really? I have never heard this. Can someone confirm this? I know the + disk drives in the 3b1 are 30ms or better which would help. But a faster + clock and extra electronics I don't thinks so. + I have been informed much of my observations are founded on the extensive dirvers installed by our network software make up a substancial fraction of the speed difference. + > Shutting it down is just about manditory on a periodioc basis + > for system V rel 3 or eirler <not realy those versions and + > behaviors. The OS is a bastard of SVR1.x and Sun (or something) + > courne shell and all> + + The OS is not a bastard of anything. I have worked with many different + favors of Unix including SVR2, BSD4.[123], Suns and Pyramids. The only + thing this kernel doesn't have that a normal SVR1.x would have is + accounting. But is also has paging, shared library and BSD ls & more. + Many of the programs ex: more, compress, path, id and other have been + pulled in from other places if that is what you mean by a bastard OS. + But those are just utilities. AT&T's you own it and I'll tell you why it is so terrible at times" speach deleviered to me by an AT&T representative who shal remain unimpeached gave me the history [reader's digest condensed version] of the development of the box. It is a BASTARD inside on the code fragment level. If you take the shell out for a walk [functions and fluid constructs] you will find that it acts strange without notice, this was shown to me, and I have had trouble with it, but I don't remember the examples. This is also shown by your list of what is does and dosn't have extra. [v1 and v2 were pound and kluged and then reverse enginered from the modified code. Again an unoffical officail coment] + >I would maby buy the 3B1, but the 7300's I have been exposed to tent to + >disapoint me. They have a bastard child for UNIX. It does not function + >consistantly and is suspended between SVR3 and System 7. All you get is + >the user environment and ed. No cc, vi, nroff, make, or electronic mail, + >though uucp is in place their is no mailx or mail window, included in the + >standard software release. all these things are available for extra, + >everything mentioned above comes in the development set. + + It is true that the development set is not included. This is also + true of the 3b2, 3b5 and up. AT&T has went will selling them separtate. + Of course this is true of PC and you get a lot more bang for your buck + with the development set and you could trying to buy the same on MS-DOS. + vi, ex, mailx, security, virtual ttys and many other things come with 3b2 abd up that are excluded from the 7300 os standard release. Why they have you open a window, just to receive ed <standard> is beyond me. But their are obvious holes in the standard release. Buying the development set seprately seems reasonable to me, if you don't need or want it, fine. But a screen oriented system whic only comes with ed.... Be serious! + >We don't have 3.5 yet, but terminal sessions, and some other functions + >lock up from time to time. Usually because of swap space corruption. + + You should upgrade. + We will. <next fiscal year or so (read as a month or less)> Robert. Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by random excursions into a wilderness of abstractions and incipient ideas that the practical purposes of the moment are often submerged in my consciousness and I don't know what I'm doing. [my employers certainly have no idea]
dpw@unisec.usi.com (Darryl P. Wagoner) (06/25/87)
>Wrong, AT&T is selling the utility package for $225. I >ordered it 2 weeks ago and received it 1 week ago in preparation >for the 3B1 I'm getting soon. You can order via credit card by >calling 800-527-6888. I called this number to check the prices and I called before the "Employee Order Line" opened. I got the recording saying that the "Employee Order Line hours of operation was from 10 am to 2 pm EDT". It would seem that these prices are only good for AT&T and Bell employee's. It would be nice if I am wrong. -- Darryl Wagoner UniSecure Systems, Inc.; dpw@unisec.usi.com Newport, RI; (401)-849-0857 UUCP: {gatech|mirror|cbosgd|uiucdcs|ihnp4}!rayssd!unisec!dpw
pgf@mtung.UUCP (06/30/87)
In article <136@toylnd.UUCP> dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) writes: >> What is the chip at the heart of the machine? >A 10Mhz 68010 with some sort of MMU and I suspect some wait states >especially since the memory seems to be of the 150ns variety. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion of specifics, but couldn't let this pass. The bus for on-board memory is fully synchronous at 10 Meg with no wait states. I can't say for sure about the expansion bus. Also, the 10 and 20 Meg disks are 85 msec, the 40 and 67's are in the 28 to 35 msec range. Much nicer. -- Paul Fox, AT&T Information Systems, Middletown NJ. [ihnp4|vax135]!mtung!pgf (201)957-2698
jte@psuvax1.UUCP (Jon Eckhardt) (07/03/87)
In article <1757@ihwpt.ATT.COM> lgm@ihwpt.ATT.COM (larry mayka) writes: > >Answers to at least some of Michel Bruneau's questions >on the UNIX PC: >- System Software v. 3.5, such as reported for $210 > in my earlier posting, includes: > + UNIX System V Release 2 The UNIX(R) PC does not run ATT System V R. 3.2? >- UNIX System Utilities 3.5, at extra cost, includes Do you know how much extra? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Eckhardt | jte@psuvax1.BITNET 736 W. Hamilton Ave. | jte@psuecl.BITNET (VMS account) State College, PA 16801 | jte@psuvaxg.BITNET (Last resort for bitnet) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- UUCP = <allegra,ihnp4,atcgva,burdvax,purdue>!psuvax1!jte --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (I am going to make my .sig smaller next week)