lmg@sfmin.UUCP (06/24/87)
As one who became involved with the UNIX PC shortly before its
introduction, I'm fascinated by the sudden heavy interest in
this machine. I'm also a bit confused as to why it's happening.
I (and others) felt that the machine had many good points:
It's a personal UNIX(R) system.
Multitasking, multiuser. Great for a small office.
You can use the console, or a terminal, or dial in while away.
Bitmapped graphics. Reasonably high resolution.
Many standard features (monitor, modem, mouse, ports, phone dialer.)
Powerful (The fastest "personal computer" then was the PC/AT.)
Good price/performance.
In spite of the apparent advantages, sales were somewhat less than expected.
(Translation: It was one of the biggest bombs since Hiroshima.) The main
criticisms, as I recall, were:
The hard disk - 85ms, 20Meg, noisy.
Noisy fans.
Proprietary bus. Not enough slots.
Nonremovable monitor. No provision for color.
"No software". No MS-DOS.
Expensive.
Some of these items were later rectified. The "3B1" (God how we hated
that name!) came out with large, fast, quiet disks. Variable speed fans
were installed. The software base grew (There is more software available
for the UNIX PC now than there is for Microport System V/AT, if I'm not
mistaken.) The DOS-73 board was released.
None of this helped sales. Only now, when prices are at fire sale levels,
is the machine selling like hotcakes.
Is that all it needed, an 80% price reduction? Is that why we have to beat
off customers with a stick now, when before we couldn't give the machine
away? What turned a sow's ear into a silk purse? Or is it still a sow's ear?
This inquiring mind wants to know!
Let me ask it this way: If you're considering a UNIX PC (or 3B1) now,
1. Why?
1a. Why not just buy a 386 AT clone?
2. Why didn't you buy it 2 years ago?
3. What features attract you to the machine?
4. What aspects make you hesitate?
5. How could AT&T have done it better?
I'll also entertain flames from those who wouldn't touch the machine
with a ten foot pole. Any enlightenment will be appreciated.
Note: These are my opinions. This is not an official survey.
AT&T knows nothing about this.
Larry Geary
ihnp4!attunix!lmgvanam@pttesac.UUCP (Marnix van Ammers) (06/26/87)
In article <820@sfmin.UUCP> lmg@sfmin.UUCP (L.M.Geary) writes: >As one who became involved with the UNIX PC shortly before its >introduction, I'm fascinated by the sudden heavy interest in >this machine. I'm also a bit confused as to why it's happening. >Let me ask it this way: If you're considering a UNIX PC (or 3B1) now, > > 1. Why? It's a great machine and now I can afford it. > 1a. Why not just buy a 386 AT clone? I get more bang for my buck with a $2000 3B1 + software. > 2. Why didn't you buy it 2 years ago? $$$$ I wanted to replace my CPM system early last year and checked into PC7300 prices. A 20 meg, 2 meg 7300 with utilities was going to cost me around $6000. I ended up buying a $1700 Amiga. > 3. What features attract you to the machine? Email, UUCP file transfers, multitasking, same software as we use at work. > 4. What aspects make you hesitate? AT&T appears to be dropping the machine. Can I really afford to have 3 computers? (My very good and very trusty CPM system is for sale for a rediculous $400 but there seems to be little interest) > 5. How could AT&T have done it better? If they could have sold the machine much cheaper and still made a profit, then they should have done so. I think it was just a bit out of reach for personal use. Marnix -- Marnix (ain't unix!) A. van\ Ammers Work: (415) 545-8334 Home: (707) 644-9781 CEO: MAVANAMMERS:UNIX UUCP: {ihnp4|ptsfa}!pttesac!vanam CIS: 70027,70 ** So what *is* a deterministic finite automaton ? **
doug@marque.UUCP (harris) (06/27/87)
Larry Geary wonders "why now?" and I'm not sure I can answer to that. We purchased then (no comments about prices please, at least none that my Dean can hear). We purchased two 3B2s the day they went on the market, a 3B5 (high end model) as soon as we could get it, about three years ago, a number of PC6300s, and about 20 PC7300s. AT&T also donated a year and a half ago a pair of 3B5s. We are very happily (despite my earlier posting about maintenance :-) using all of these, the Unix PCs in faculty offices and in a lab for the introductory course. Since they are the "hot" item just now I'll comment only on them. Originally, the windows were painfully slow, and the machines hung for all sorts of unexplained/unexplainable reason to the point that they had to be rebooted. The disk was slow and noisy. We were attracted to the product initially in part because of the GSS drivers, as well as the hope that an AT&T machine would quickly be provided with reasonable communications facilities. The Unix was, and is, somewhat bastardized, the documentation does not quite describe accurately the facts (doesn't it usually ;-?), and the window manager has the strongest "mind of its own" I have ever seen. With all of the defects and problems (each new release of the OS solves some, introduces other - is it an IBM product really?), it is a 68010 box with its own MML (Mickey Mouse logic) memory management, well done in the "traditional" 68010 manner, good graphics hardware (720 by 348 with a "rasterop" in the C library), nice bus architecture (well, I have a Technical Manual, and fortunately, an ohmeter, so was able to map out the bus architecture from the conflicting diagrams in the manual), ST506 disk (brain damaged of course by the fact that only a single disk can be selected, by hardware choice), nice modem electronically (don't ask about the library software that sometimes drives it). So it is an absolutely marvelous hacker's machine. To me the recent "sudden interest" is due to the fact that the $1200 price frame is one that is reasonable for individuals, the earlier $3000++ price frame (ask what we paid for ours) was not. As to why University folks did not purchase them, and why many of those who were given them have stuffed them into a corner and not used them in a major way, the "hassle factor" has just been too high compared to other possibilities. We have SOURCE CODE for PDP, Vax, 3B5, 3B2, Minix, Xinu, who knows what else, while for the Unix PC it took years (literally) to get a hardware manual, which is not accurate, and the bastardized Unix means that you can't operate from either your BSD experience or your SysV experience, and you have NO IDEA what the smgr/wmgr daemons will cook up and decide to carry out, which will lock your machine, hang your phone, pop up a window, or generally just hassle you. Having completed a semester using 10 UnixPcs each with a terminal, connected via Starlan to themselves and a 3B2 (also on our Ethernet), as "lab stations" for 15 two hour sessions a week with 20 students per session, I can cite chapter and verse. I have been told, by AT&T folks at a reasonably high level, that "we tried to put Unix on the desktop, and failed". My rather violent response, which I am entitled to as "the man who owns one", and who bought them wanting Unix on the desktop, is that they in fact did not put UNIX on the desktop, they put a bastardized Unix underneath and a fouled up "user agent" on top, and did not allow those who knew what to do with Unix to get underneath it to make it go. And all of this with lots of hardbound "easy to use" manuals that told you nothing accurate in many cases. Nothing would have improved the chances of that machine more, in my opinion, than to have totally "cleaned it out", putting real SysV or BSD, with some low level communications hooks, and high-level OPTIONAL interfaces to windows and user agents. This is the approach that I at least expected from AT&T (and may yet see if their pockets are truly deep). Sorry for the length of the posting; three years is a long time to store up opinions. I would like to see some actual discussion in this group of 3Bs, 7300s, and the like (yes I know about U3G and can't wait for it to start), what folks are doing with them and where they want to go, and I can't wait for the first of you hackers who can now afford them to "clean one up" and turn it into a real "desktop Unix box". The hardware deserves it. Doug Harris (Chairman of the Department and resident unik) doug@mu.edu ...!uwvax!marque!doug
walker@edge.UUCP (07/06/87)
In article <820@sfmin.UUCP>, lmg@sfmin.UUCP writes: > Let me ask it this way: If you're considering a UNIX PC (or 3B1) now, > > 1. Why? I've been looking for an inexpensive Unix machine for home. > 1a. Why not just buy a 386 AT clone? I use the 680X0 stuff at work, and am VERY familiar with it. > 2. Why didn't you buy it 2 years ago? A. didn't know about B. even if I did, it was TOO EXPENSIVE > 3. What features attract you to the machine? CHEAP UNIX, CHEAP - CHEAP - CHEAP > 4. What aspects make you hesitate? Looks like a toy (in my humble opinion) > 5. How could AT&T have done it better? Removable monitor, Wyse type keyboard, COLOR option, floating point option =============================================================================== The above comments express my opinion ONLY. (and sometime my wife's) Dan Walker (N7GLK) Pay no attention to that man behind Edge Computer the curtain. Scottsdale, Arizona ...!ihnp4!mot!edge!walker ...!seismo!ism780c!edge!walker When the odds are 50/50, chances are 10 to 1 against you.