gmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) (12/23/88)
What are the compatibilities between the 3B1 and 3B2? File formats? Floppy interface? Can I write a floppy on a 3B1 in 8 or 10 sector format and read it on the 3B2, for instance? Are the versions of UNIX identical? If not, how, so? Any and all information is appreciated. - Mark G. Mark Stewart ATT_BTL, Naperville, Ill. ix1g266 ihlpq!gms (312)979-0914 (please include phone for response)
bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) (12/28/88)
In article <7047@ihlpf.ATT.COM>, gmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) writes: > What are the compatibilities between the 3B1 and 3B2? File > formats? Floppy interface? Can I write a floppy on a 3B1 > in 8 or 10 sector format and read it on the 3B2, for instance? My understanding is that the 3b2 format is different than for the 3b1. 'Wonder if Emmett Grey might be willing to hack a "3b2.tools" thingie for the 3b1, at some point? I realize it's awful pushy to even suggest this, since he has already contributed so very much to neat.stuff.3b1, but he sure would be the person well-equipped to do the job. Ahhh........Emmett, is this a big chore, at least to get read & write between the two machines? Bud Hovell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : USENET: {attmail! | tektronix!percival! | pacbell!safari!} whizz!bbh : : TELEX: 152258436 (Whizz/Bud Hovell) VOICE: +1 503-636-3000 : : PAPER: Overture Systems Corp, PO Box 1812, Lake Oswego, Oregon USA 97035 : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "Follow your bliss" - Joseph Campbell
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (12/30/88)
In article <598@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes:
='Wonder if Emmett Grey might be willing to hack a "3b2.tools" thingie
=for the 3b1, at some point?
I believe you mean "3b2" above, right? I've asked Emett about this and
he says he doesn't have access to a 3b2. Maybe you can give him a late
Xmas present? :-)
Pete
--
Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800egray@fthood.UUCP (01/02/89)
>='Wonder if Emmett Grey might be willing to hack a "3b2.tools" thingie >=for the 3b1, at some point? > >I believe you mean "3b2" above, right? I've asked Emett about this and >he says he doesn't have access to a 3b2. Maybe you can give him a late >Xmas present? :-) Hey... I'm all for it! Let's see... I need to write some code on a Sun 386i too! Seriously... Somebody give me access to their 3b2 and stay on the phone with me while I'm testing it out, and I'll create a 3b2 version of Mtools. Any takers? Emmet P. Gray US Army, HQ III Corps & Fort Hood ...!uunet!uiucuxc!fthood!egray Attn: AFZF-DE-ENV Directorate of Engineering & Housing Environmental Management Office Fort Hood, TX 76544-5057
bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) (01/02/89)
In article <537@mccc.UUCP>, pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) writes: > In article <598@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes: > ='Wonder if Emmett Grey might be willing to hack a "3b2.tools" thingie > =for the 3b1, at some point? > > I believe you mean "3b2" above, right? I've asked Emett about this and > he says he doesn't have access to a 3b2. Maybe you can give him a late > Xmas present? :-) Um.......nope, don't seem to have any of those hanging around just now :-). Too bad. I guess what I meant was a package for the 3B1 that would allow it to read and write 3B2 discs. And next time you talk to Emmett, if he's in a jolly mood, could you ask him if it is possible to write a routine to *format* DOS discs on the 3B1? (Talk about *pushy*!!!) Bud Hovell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : USENET: {attmail! | tektronix!percival! | pacbell!safari!} whizz!bbh : : TELEX: 152258436 (Whizz/Bud Hovell) VOICE: +1 503-636-3000 : : PAPER: Overture Systems Corp, PO Box 1812, Lake Oswego, Oregon USA 97035 : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "You may not be interested in strategy - but strategy is interested in you."
fmcgee@cuuxb.ATT.COM (~XT4103000~Frank McGee~C23~M24~6326~) (01/03/89)
In article <598@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes: >In article <7047@ihlpf.ATT.COM>, gmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) writes: >> What are the compatibilities between the 3B1 and 3B2? File >> formats? Floppy interface? Can I write a floppy on a 3B1 >> in 8 or 10 sector format and read it on the 3B2, for instance? > >My understanding is that the 3b2 format is different than for the 3b1. Yes, they are, and the software (and possibly hardware needed to do this) may be more difficult to do than you might think. My suggestion is to purchase one of the commercial packages that lets you read DOS style disks on 3b2's. Then use the Unix PC office stuff to write your data onto DOS formatted disks, and use the commercial package on the 3b2 to read them. Sorry, don't have any pointers as to who sells the 3b2 software, but I know it exists. As for the 3b1 writing 3b2 disks, you'll have to have a different floppy drive to be able to do that (ie, a high density drive like they put in PC AT's). The drives that come with the Unix PC have a formatted capacity of 360K max. 3b2 drives are a 720K format (so there is no amount of software that can be written that will allow a Unix PC to write a 720K disk). However, if you've done the hardware mod to put a 1.2 MB drive in all you'll have to do is hack the device driver to allow the 720K format). The 720K format is double-sided, quad-density, at 40 TPI if I remember right. Hope this helps you out, -- Frank McGee Tier 3 Indirect Channel Sales Support attmail!fmcgee
len@netsys.COM (Len Rose) (01/03/89)
Congruent Technologies in Texas makes a package that will enable a 3B2 to
read/write PC DOS formatted disks.
--
len@netsys.com
{ames,att,rutgers}!netsys!lengmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) (01/03/89)
In article <2328@cuuxb.ATT.COM>, fmcgee@cuuxb.ATT.COM (~XT4103000~Frank McGee~C23~M24~6326~) writes: > In article <598@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes: > >In article <7047@ihlpf.ATT.COM>, gmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) writes: > >> What are the compatibilities between the 3B1 and 3B2? File ... > is no amount of software that can be written that will allow a Unix PC > to write a 720K disk). However, if you've done the hardware mod to put For that matter, are there any limitations (such as those preventing use of certain hard drives) that prevent you from sliding a quad density floppy 720K into the 3B1? I assume there are 1/2 height quads, but if not, are there any other limitations (they could merely be daisy-chained). GMStewart ihlpq!gms
vch@attibr.UUCP (Vincent C. Hatem) (01/04/89)
In article <11554@netsys.COM>, len@netsys.COM (Len Rose) writes: > Congruent Technologies in Texas makes a package that will enable a 3B2 to > read/write PC DOS formatted disks. > > -- > len@netsys.com > {ames,att,rutgers}!netsys!len OOPS! It's Congruent? I guess that's what I get for typing this off the top of my head. (I recently sent away for info from that company... and got it last week... rough New Years, I guess.) -Vince
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (01/04/89)
In article <10800004@fthood> egray@fthood.UUCP writes: > >>='Wonder if Emmett Grey might be willing to hack a "3b2.tools" thingie >>=for the 3b1, at some point? >> >Seriously... Somebody give me access to their 3b2 and stay on the phone >with me while I'm testing it out, and I'll create a 3b2 version of Mtools. >Any takers? Mtools will work on the 3B2 as-is with the limitation that you need to prepare a disk image that looks like a 720K DOS format with the last track locked out or used. This same disk can be accessed by some AT style 1.2M drives (if the BIOS knows about 720 formats and doesn't insist on double-stepping). The 3B2 driver does something internally with the last track and will not access it normally (i.e "cp /dev/rSA/diskette1 /tmp/test" gives a file that is 728064 characters long. I tested the technique by preparing a 720 DOS formatted disk with a directory entry for a hidden file that contained the last track (using Norton utilities). Then I used debug to copy the 1st 18 sectors from this disk into an ordinary file, which I transferred to the 3B2. Then I cp'ed this dos directory image onto a 3B2 formatted floppy producing a disk that both mtools and an AT&T 6386 running Dos 3.2 could access. It might be possible to modify mtools to double-step for a 360k dos disk but it will probably require a different driver to access that last track. As others have noted, there is a commercial program to allow this. We happen to have a starlan network with the DOS server software so I can simply copy files over the network to/from PC disks, so I haven't pursued the matter further than determining that it can be done. Les Mikesell
bill@ssbn.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) (01/04/89)
In article <2328@cuuxb.ATT.COM> fmcgee@cuuxb.UUCP (Frank W. McGee) writes: >In article <598@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes: >>In article <7047@ihlpf.ATT.COM>, gmark@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Stewart) writes: >>> What are the compatibilities between the 3B1 and 3B2? File [ ... ] >>My understanding is that the 3b2 format is different than for the 3b1. [ Frank suggests buying a package, I agree ] >As for the 3b1 writing 3b2 disks, you'll have to have a different >floppy drive to be able to do that (ie, a high density drive like they >put in PC AT's). The drives that come with the Unix PC have a >formatted capacity of 360K max. 3b2 drives are a 720K format (so there So far so good, but what Frank didn't say was that in order to fit 1.2Mb on an AT style diskette they muck with the spindle motor speed. It's my understanding that the 3B2 uses a 96tpi drive like the AT and that the reason that only 720K will fit is because the spindle motor speed remains constant, thus only twice the capacity of a 40tpi drive. On the outer tracks there's some magnetic real estate that can be used by an AT type drive that just isn't used because the rotational rate is constant. If it slows down, then more bytes can be fit on it. This is nearly as much of a question as it is a statement. I know, for example, that "vanilla" 96tpi drives aren't compatible with the AT, nor can you expect to get 15 sectors per track on the inner tracks of a "vanilla" 96tpi drive. Doesn't the AT type drive slow down on the inner tracks to keep bits per inch about the same as on the outer tracks? >is no amount of software that can be written that will allow a Unix PC >to write a 720K disk). However, if you've done the hardware mod to put >a 1.2 MB drive in all you'll have to do is hack the device driver to >allow the 720K format). The 720K format is double-sided, quad-density, >at 40 TPI if I remember right. To be a hopeless nit picker, is it not 40 cylinders on 48tpi media and 80 cylinders on 96tpi media? >Hope this helps you out, > >-- >Frank McGee >Tier 3 Indirect Channel Sales Support >attmail!fmcgee Please don't flame if I'm mistaken, just post so we'll all know. -- Bill Kennedy usenet {killer,att,cs.utexas.edu,sun!daver}!ssbn!bill internet bill@ssbn.WLK.COM
mvadh@cbnews.ATT.COM (andrew.d.hay) (01/04/89)
In article <379@ssbn.WLK.COM> bill@ssbn.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) writes: -->In article <2328@cuuxb.ATT.COM> fmcgee@cuuxb.UUCP (Frank W. McGee) writes: . . . -->So far so good, but what Frank didn't say was that in order to fit 1.2Mb -->on an AT style diskette they muck with the spindle motor speed. It's my -->understanding that the 3B2 uses a 96tpi drive like the AT and that the -->reason that only 720K will fit is because the spindle motor speed remains -->constant, thus only twice the capacity of a 40tpi drive. On the outer -->tracks there's some magnetic real estate that can be used by an AT type -->drive that just isn't used because the rotational rate is constant. If -->it slows down, then more bytes can be fit on it. as far as *I* know, the formats are as follows: single density: 125Kb/s (fm); double density: 250Kb/s (mfm); quad density: 500Kb/s (mfm) with spindle speed raised from 300 to 360 rpm (just like 8" floppies -- remember 8" floppies?). if you work out the math -- for a 160 track drive, this gives ~1.6Mbit unformatted. -->This is nearly as much of a question as it is a statement. I know, for -->example, that "vanilla" 96tpi drives aren't compatible with the AT, nor -->can you expect to get 15 sectors per track on the inner tracks of a -->"vanilla" 96tpi drive. Doesn't the AT type drive slow down on the inner -->tracks to keep bits per inch about the same as on the outer tracks? no, it *speeds*up* on *all* tracks. -->>is no amount of software that can be written that will allow a Unix PC -->>to write a 720K disk). However, if you've done the hardware mod to put -->>a 1.2 MB drive in all you'll have to do is hack the device driver to -->>allow the 720K format). The 720K format is double-sided, quad-density, -->>at 40 TPI if I remember right. i had thought the 3b2 format was 80 track double density, not 40 track quad density. a 3b1 could do this with an 80 track drive, at the expense of 40 track compatibility (since it doesn't know about double-stepping). i didn't know any 40 track drives were quad-density rated. to do quad density on the 3b1, you need to change the controller clock. -->To be a hopeless nit picker, is it not 40 cylinders on 48tpi media and -->80 cylinders on 96tpi media? yes -- though the earliest 96tpi drives had 77 cylinders, like 8" drives (remember 8" floppies?). -- Andrew Hay +------------------------------------------------------+ Holistic Specialist | I will design a computer for you, so powerful that | AT&T-BL Ward Hill MA | organic life will form part of its operational matrix| mvuxq.att.com!adh +------------------------------------------------------+
bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) (01/05/89)
In article <10800004@fthood>, egray@fthood.UUCP writes: > Hey... I'm all for it! Let's see... I need to write some code on a > Sun 386i too! > > Seriously... Somebody give me access to their 3b2 and stay on the phone > with me while I'm testing it out, and I'll create a 3b2 version of Mtools. > Any takers? > > Emmet P. Gray US Army, HQ III Corps & Fort Hood Boy, do *I* feel like a louse, Emmett, having brought this up and having no way (currently) to support my own proposition. If there is *anyone* out there with either of these machines available, and who also wants to see our little machine have more flexibility for hard-media transfers of data, it would sure be nice if they would provide you the facilities. And thnks for the products of your effort to-date, Emmett. 'Mtools' is a real nice package! Bud Hovell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : USENET: {attmail! | tektronix!percival! | pacbell!safari!} whizz!bbh : : TELEX: 152258436 (Whizz/Bud Hovell) VOICE: +1 503-636-3000 : : PAPER: Overture Systems Corp, PO Box 1812, Lake Oswego, Oregon USA 97035 : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "You may not be interested in strategy - but strategy is interested in you."
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (01/06/89)
In article <601@whizz.uucp> bbh@whizz.uucp (Bud Hovell) writes:
=I guess what I meant was a package for the 3B1 that would allow it to read
=and write 3B2 discs.
Bud, I think someone pointed out that it is not possible for a std 3b1 floppy
disk drive to read a std 3b2 flppy disk. The only possible medium of
exchange (sorreeeee! :-) would be MSDOS 360K format.
=
=And next time you talk to Emmett, if he's in a jolly mood, could you ask
=him if it is possible to write a routine to *format* DOS discs on the 3B1?
What's wrong with the formatting program that's on the 3b1?
Pete
--
Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334
1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (01/06/89)
Threre are many things that cause incompatibility between 360K 40 track drives and 1.2 megabyte 80 track drives. Most notable is the fact that the media in 1.2 meg drives must have a higher MOL (max- imum output level) to compensate for the approximate 3 dB loss of signal from the disk head (the tracks are half the width, hence approximately half the amplitude is recovered in a read of an 80 track drive). To accomplish this, 1.2 meg diskettes use a cobalt doped oxide (to the eye, it looks black, rather than brown of 360K disks). This is akin to chrome cassette tapes. Just for the record, a 360K drive can not generate a field intense enough to magnetize an HD type diskette. The devices are thus incompatible at the media level. A 1.2 meg HD disk drive can, however, read a 360K diskette. The converese is not true; an HD drive can not write in low density such that reliable reads are guaranteed on a 360K drive. This makes it possible to port from a 360K machine up to a 1.2 mege machine, but not reliably vice versa. An HD disk is laid out thus: 80 tracks * 2 sides * 15 sectors per track * 1/2 Kbyte per sector = 1,200 Kbytes per disk. To get decent MOL, the RPM is also increased on a 1.2 meg drive from 300 pm up to 360 rpm. This gives a data transfer rate of 500,000 bits per second of raw data to/from the head. A 360K disk is liad out thus: 40 tracks * 2 sides * 9 sectors per track * 1/2 Kbyte per sector = 360 Kbytes per disk. The drive runs at 300 rpm, which yields 250,000 bits per second measured at the head. (IBM type MFM encoding assumed.) The Unix PC can also be programmed to format at 10 sectors per track. A 720K quad density drive is much like a 360K drive, except that there are 80 tracks of 1/2 the normal width. The oxide used is approximately (if not exactly) the same as that used in 360K media. To the best of my knowledge there aren't any readily available HD 1.2 meg drives that can read the oddball 720K format. The best bet would be to attempt to teach cpio (if it doesn't already know) how to read the 3b1 diskettes on the 3b2. You might be able to go 3b2 --> 3b1, if you use virgin (or bulk erased) media on the 3b2 and then only read, but never wrtie to it on the 3b1. The key is to only ever write on the disk (3b1 or 3b1) with the machine that did the actual formatting. There is a company that makes an oddball 1.2 meg drive that runs at 300 rpm for use in XT compatible machines that have FDC chips that are fixed at 250,000 bps. Priority One Electronics either does or did stock such drives. I have never used one of those beasts, so I don't know how well it works. I can't vouch for the quality of Priority One either, as I have never bought anything from them. Priority One usually advertises somewhere in Byte each month. --Bill
ditto@cbmvax.UUCP (Michael "Ford" Ditto) (01/07/89)
In article <1447@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: >A 720K quad density drive is much like a 360K drive, except that >there are 80 tracks of 1/2 the normal width. The oxide used is >approximately (if not exactly) the same as that used in 360K media. These are fairly common, and I beleive that the TEAC model FD55D is the 80-cylinder version of the very common FD55B (which is what's in the Unix PC, if I remember correctly). I doubt that the manufacturer would call these "quad density" drives, since they are used at double density, the same as 40 track drives. I have always heard them called simply "80 track drives". >To the best of my knowledge there aren't any readily available HD >1.2 meg drives that can read the oddball 720K format. The 720K format isn't oddball at all; it's exactly the same as the IBM PC 360K format except on an 80 track drive. It's also the format used by IBM-PC compatibles with 3.5" drives. 1.2M drives should read/write that format perfectly (same mode as when being 40-track semi-compatible, except don't skip odd tracks). I used floppies for data transfer between Unix PCs and some custom 68020-based systems running Regulus with 1.2Meg drives. The floppy device driver on the D512 had an "ibm" mode which skipped odd tracks and used "normal" double density MFM (nine 512-byte sectors), and this format got along just fine with the Unix PC. I was able to both read and write normal floppies on either machine, regardless of which machine formatted them. Bill's warning about "thin" tracks not being reliably readable on "thick" drives is very true as far as the specs are concerned; I did it knowning that it was "at my own risk" and didn't have any problems. For my long term backups, though, I always formatted and wrote using the Unix PC, since that should always be reliably readable on either type of drive. I will post my "fdread"/"fdwrite" program which allows the Unix PC to read/write "raw" floppies, i.e., starting from track zero. This latest version allows specifying various floppy parameters, such as number of sectors and sector size. I tried reading some 256-byte sector disks but ran into some trouble; I can give more info if someone needs it. If the 3B2 can read/write "generic" 48tpi floppies (without requiring a partition table or similar nonsense) it should be possible to do transfers with the 3B1 and a program such as "fdread". -- -=] Ford [=- "The number of Unix installations (In Real Life: Mike Ditto) has grown to 10, with more expected." ford@kenobi.cts.com - The Unix Programmer's Manual, ...!sdcsvax!crash!elgar!ford 2nd Edition, June, 1972. ditto@cbmvax.commodore.com