hurf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Hurf Sheldon) (02/23/89)
We have several 3b2/310's running System 5 version 3.1
with WinTCP 1.1, net card, 30meg drive, floppy and a
4serial/1parallel card. All systems were originally
3b2/300's that were upgraded by ATT technicians at our
site. We have a list of questions that we can't, as yet*,
find answers to, so if anyone can help in all or in part,
please respond by reply, e-mail direct to me or phone,
which ever is easiest for you.
* We have asked our resident ATT expert, ATT sales reps
and perused the manuals rather thoroughly (we think)
trying to answer the questions posed.
Questions:
1; Is there a way to make a bootable floppy system
so we can try to salvage systems that are having a problem
without doing the 'Essential utilities, partial restore'
route? Essentially a kernal with mount, fsck, makedev
etc so we can boot, fsck the hard drive and mount it.
2; "WARNING: niwrite: ni_send failed - ret code=8"
We keep getting this network error repeated about every
thirty seconds that we can't track down and
after swapping several boards it is still there so I see it
as a software or protocol problem. We have one system
directly on the net (h4000 xcvr---->3b2) that doesn't
ever show it but any system on our delnii does;
(h4000------->DELNII------>3b2) - other systems on the DELNII
show no problems (uVaxII, Kinetics FastPath)
Network performance and connections don't seem to be affected.
Routed and tftpd are turned off. It is vexing.
What are the proper diagnostics to run on the net interface
and where is the info on them?
3; Hard drive questions;
a; Do the 3B2's use a standard configuration hard drive?
ie: What will fit and how much is it?
b; What does it take to mount a second hard drive either
in the 3b2 chassis or outside. We have a couple of
spare 30meg drives that we would like to put in
place of the floppies on a couple of systems. Can that
be done? - It looks like the cables to the hard drive
port in the back could just be pulled off and connected
to another drive, except for the little 2 wire cable
from the port to the internal drive. Also what drive
selects to use?
c; Is there a place that rebuilds the drives at an effective
cost?
4; Maintenence Questions;
a; Does ATT have a mail in program analogous to DEC's
DECMAILER program?
b; Is there an independent repair facility for 3b2
board level repairs?
c; Are there any hardware manuals available for the 3b2/310?
5; Software questions;
a; Is there an 'rdump' around that will allow you to dump
to a remote (Ultrix) system.
b; Is NFS available?
c; Is there a csh or csh like environment available?
--
Hurf Sheldon Network: hurf@ionvax.tn.cornell.edu
Lab of Plasma Studies Bitnet: hurf@CRNLION
369 Upson Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853 ph:607 255 7267
I sold my Elan, got a job in science; Now, no one takes me seriously.pag@tcsc3b2.UUCP (Philip A. Gross) (03/02/89)
In article <7455@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, hurf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Hurf Sheldon) writes: [...stuff deleted...] > > Questions: > > 1; Is there a way to make a bootable floppy system > so we can try to salvage systems that are having a problem > without doing the 'Essential utilities, partial restore' > route? Essentially a kernal with mount, fsck, makedev > etc so we can boot, fsck the hard drive and mount it. While the answer to this question is "yes" you can create a diskette with a bootable file system, there is essentially (pardon the pun) an easier way to approach this problem without going to the trouble of making one. The Essential Utilities Diskette 1 for your AT&T Sysv3.1 is a mountable filesystem. Now there is a little known way in which to gain access to a somewhat restricted shell when you boot on this floppy. What you need to do is to bring your maching to FIRMWARE MODE and enter unix as the program to execute and indicate device 0, the floppy diskette as your boot device. This you are probably familiar with. After much twitling (sp) of thumbs, you will finally be presented with the familiar menu where you have the option to do an upgrade, full restore, partial restore, or quit. Well instead of typing any of the suggested options, type: magic mode the computer will then respond: POOF! (I kid you not) and you will note that you now have an additional option "shell". Enter: shell and you will be presented with a '#' sign prompt. There also exist other hidden options which can be found by examining the installation program. I believe it is /etc/rc on the floppy, you can double check this by examining the /etc/inittab file on the floppy to see what it runs on bootup. Nevertheless, you will be working in a restricted environment. For example, you will not have 'vi'. 'Ed' and 'cat' will have to do (I can't even recall if ed is even supplied). Also you will find that you don't even have 'ls', for this you will have to use 'echo *' in order to get directory listings. In order to find out what devices, etc are available to you, you can type 'set' to list the environment variables which have been defined. Several things such as 'mount' have been defined as functions and are not available in the normal format. You may want to hack with this on a system when you are not under a pressure situation. [...stuff deleted...] > 3; Hard drive questions; > a; Do the 3B2's use a standard configuration hard drive? > ie: What will fit and how much is it? The older 3B2's, generally 300s, 310s and most 400s use the ST506 interface. The more recent models of the 400 and on up now use ESDI drives. As for size, for one in order to use a non-AT&T supplied drive, you need to have access to the low level formatting programs. These are found on releases of what is called DEVTOOLS and more recently IDTOOLS diskettes. These diskettes, like the Essential Utilities Diskette 1 are bootable filesystems on the floppy. If you use the DEVTOOLS diskette, the largest I have ever been able to format is to ~72Mb. Now with the IDTOOLS I have been able to coerce a couple of PRIAM's and MAXTOR's to format to ~190Mb (1224 cylinders). > > b; What does it take to mount a second hard drive either > in the 3b2 chassis or outside. We have a couple of > spare 30meg drives that we would like to put in > place of the floppies on a couple of systems. Can that > be done? - It looks like the cables to the hard drive > port in the back could just be pulled off and connected > to another drive, except for the little 2 wire cable > from the port to the internal drive. Also what drive > selects to use? To mount a drive externally, not a great deal except money. You will need an external cabinet of sorts one out of a PC magazine works with one of our machines (don't plan on AT&T supporting it) or you can purchase an XM with the appropriate cables in order to connect the drive externally. As far as cables go for the external disk, we use a simple PC hard disk ribbon cable, but you must keep the distance to a minimum or you will have problems with the hdelogger reporting hd errors that do not really exist. AT&T does sell special cables for running externally which are shielded, but the price is mucho $$$. I believe the 20 pin external cable is about $80.00 and the 34 pin external is ~$175.00. As far as installing a hard disk in place of a floppy, you may be able to get away with that but you will have to reconfigure the ends of the data and control cables to have card edge connectors instead of what is supplied. The 'little 2 wire' cable that you speak of is simply having the internal drive make use of the resistor pack which is on the external port "board". The internal drive, the root drive, is selected as drive 0 and the other drive is selected as drive 1. You will need to remove the 2-wire cable and install the resistor pack on whichever drive is at the end of the "chain". > > c; Is there a place that rebuilds the drives at an effective > cost? Don't know, but please let me know if you find one. We have a 72Mb CDC Wren II that has lost its mind and needs a bit of "psychological" help in order to get it to work again. > > b; Is there an independent repair facility for 3b2 > board level repairs? > > c; Are there any hardware manuals available for the 3b2/310? Again, let me know if you find these answers. I have learned what I have through 3 years of trial & error & intense hardware/software hacking. > c; Is there a csh or csh like environment available? Ksh sources can always be purchased from the AT&T Toolchest at about $3000.00 a pop. That's what we did a couple of years ago and have not regretted it a bit. It was well worth the investment by increasing productivity. Alas, you could wait till SysV 4.0 is released in which case ksh will be the standard shell. ===================================+=========================================== Philip A. Gross |INTERNET: pag%tcsc3b2@wb3ffv.ampr.org The Computer Solution Co., Inc. |USENET: ...!wb3ffv!tcsc3b2!pag 1009 Sycamore Square, P.O. Box 716 |UUCP: tcsc3b2!pag (804)794-1514 Midlothian, VA 23113-0716 |ATTMAIL: attmail!tcsc3b2!pag Voice: (804)794-3491 | The opinions expressed here are strictly mine and nobody elses. << I haven't heard what I have to say about that yet. >> :-)
mfinegan@uceng.UC.EDU (michael k finegan) (03/05/89)
[...stuff deleted WITHOUT notice!...] In article <615@tcsc3b2.UUCP>, pag@tcsc3b2.UUCP (Philip A. Gross) writes: > In article <7455@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, hurf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Hurf Sheldon) writes: > [...stuff deleted...] > > Questions: > > 1; Is there a way to make a bootable floppy system > > magic mode begets > POOF! It took a couple of hours on AT&T phones calling AT&T to get this. Do people realize how lucky they are when they get it easily ? On the other hand, real computer systems (BSD?) tell you in the manual how to install, destroy, and most importantly BOOT the system SINGLE-USER w/wo a hard disk. I even got a return phone call form AT&T service after only asking for the trick, to see if I knew what I was doing. > you will find that you don't even have 'ls', for this you will have > to use 'echo *' in order to get directory listings. In order to 'find' is what I used ... > things such as 'mount' have been defined as functions and are not > available in the normal format. You may want to hack with this on you can still mount, they just changed the name ... > drive, you need to have access to the low level formatting programs. > These are found on releases of what is called DEVTOOLS and more > recently IDTOOLS diskettes. I thought you weren't supposed to know stuff like this? 8-) > > c; Is there a place that rebuilds the drives at an effective cost? > Don't know, but please let me know if you find one. We have a Call CDC @ 1-800-382-6060 (Oklahoma is where they were assembled ...) The rebuild cost is signifigantly less than AT&T or distributor cost ... BTW - have you used the faster clock 32000 series CPU's ? Is it worth the expense, and is there a `best' source $-wise? Mike Finegan mfinegan@uceng.uc.edu finegan@ucece1.san.uc.edu
flint@gistdev.UUCP (03/16/89)
Yea, Magic Mode is a lot of fun, but it can save tons of time: what
bugs me is why AT&T won't make it into something real and (heaven
forbid) document it. If you want to mount things (like the hard
disk you are trying to fix) you have to do something like this:
fsys -m /tmp /dev/dsk/c1d0s0
And to unmount it:
fsys -u /dev/dsk/c1d0s0
Also: Make sure you get "POOF!". I haven't done this for a while, but if I
remember rightly, entering "magic mode" at the one of the earlier or later
prompts (maybe the load device prompt) gets you a "POOOF!" (note the 3 O's,
not 2.) I don't recall what the "really magic" magic mode with the 3
O's is used for, but I remember wasting a lot of time once long ago before
I found out about it: even most of the AT&T tech reps on the hotline don't
know about it.
Flint Pellett, Global Information Systems Technology, Inc.
1800 Woodfield Drive, Savoy, IL 61874 (217) 352-1165
INTERNET: flint%gistdev@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
UUCP: {uunet,pur-ee,convex}!uiucuxc!gistdev!flinthjespers@vpk4.UUCP (Hans Jespersen) (03/17/89)
In article <8300010@gistdev> flint@gistdev.UUCP writes: >Yea, Magic Mode is a lot of fun, but it can save tons of time: what >bugs me is why AT&T won't make it into something real and (heaven >forbid) document it. [ stuff deleted ] Most likely because it's a big security hole. All someone needs is Essential Utilities Disk 1 and physical access to the machine and the box is their's. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Jespersen UUCP: uunet!attcan!hjespers AT&T Canada Inc. or ..!attcan!nebulus!arakis!hans Toronto, Ontario #include <std.disclaimer> "Yabba Dabba Doo" -- F. Flintstone
heff@flnexus.ATT.COM (Paul_Heffner) (03/18/89)
From article <8300010@gistdev>, by flint@gistdev.UUCP: > > Yea, Magic Mode is a lot of fun, but it can save tons of time: what > bugs me is why AT&T won't make it into something real and (heaven > forbid) document it. Because It's potentially a serious security hole. If your processor isn't physically secure. (read: locked up in a room somewhere) anybody with some smarts and some knowledge of magic mode can do violence (or at least dubious things) to your system if so inclined. THAT is why they allow you to change the firmware password and smart SAs do just that... > If you want to mount things (like the hard > disk you are trying to fix) you have to do something like this: > fsys -m /tmp /dev/dsk/c1d0s0 > And to unmount it: > fsys -u /dev/dsk/c1d0s0 Yeah, they're cryptic, allright, but if any yabbo could do it, then any yabbo could crack your system easily. Try the 'set' command when you're in the shell at M.Mode and you'll see lots of useful shell variables and shell functions for the more necessary functions. > Flint Pellett, Global Information Systems Technology, Inc. Heff
pim@ctisbv.UUCP (Pim Zandbergen) (03/20/89)
In article <178@flnexus.ATT.COM> heff@flnexus.ATT.COM (Paul_Heffner) writes: | |Because It's potentially a serious security hole. If your processor |isn't physically secure. |[...] |THAT is why they allow you to change the firmware password and smart |SAs do just that... | But when your processor is not physically secure, neither is the firmware password. Anyone who can use the Essential Utilities #1 can also bring their own floppy key with their own firmware password, or could just disconnect the battery for a while.. -- --------------------+----------------------+----------------------------------- Pim Zandbergen | phone: +31 70 542302 | CTI Software BV pim@ctisbv.UUCP | fax : +31 70 512837 | Laan Copes van Cattenburch 70 ...!uunet!mcvax!hp4nl!ctisbv!pim | 2585 GD The Hague, The Netherlands
darryl@drumn.ATT.COM (JacobsD) (03/21/89)
In article <178@flnexus.ATT.COM> heff@flnexus.ATT.COM (Paul_Heffner) writes: >From article <8300010@gistdev>, by flint@gistdev.UUCP: >> >> Yea, Magic Mode is a lot of fun, but it can save tons of time: what >> bugs me is why AT&T won't make it into something real and (heaven >> forbid) document it. > >Because It's potentially a serious security hole. If your processor >isn't physically secure. (read: locked up in a room somewhere) >anybody with some smarts and some knowledge of magic mode can >do violence (or at least dubious things) to your system if so inclined. So why not document that fact and recommend that the Essential Utilities floppies (including the floppy key) be stashed in a secure place? After all, security holes don't go away just because you don't mention them! >THAT is why they allow you to change the firmware password and smart >SAs do just that... I don't understand ... Since you cannot access magic mode unless: (A) You know the firmware password, (or have the floppy key) and (B) You have the Essential Utilities floppy #1, why is magic mode considered a serious security hole? >> If you want to mount things (like the hard >> disk you are trying to fix) you have to do something like this: > >> fsys -m /tmp /dev/dsk/c1d0s0 > >> And to unmount it: > >> fsys -u /dev/dsk/c1d0s0 > > >Yeah, they're cryptic, allright, but if any yabbo could do it, then any >yabbo could crack your system easily. IMHO, making system administration commands cryptic does nothing to improve system security. It does, however, make it more likely that legitimate SAs will make stupid mistakes that can cause just as much damage as any 'yabbo'! > ... Try the 'set' command when you're in >the shell at M.Mode and you'll see lots of useful shell variables and >shell functions for the more necessary functions. This brings us back to Mr. Pellett's original point. Why should he, or any administrator of a 3b2, be forced to reverse engineer something like magic mode, when it would be simple for AT&T to include that information in the documentation? Adequate documentation might also solve the other problem mentioned in regards to magic mode: (From Mr. Pellett's original posting) > ..., but I remember wasting a lot of time once long ago before >I found out about it: even most of the AT&T tech reps on the hotline don't >know about it. True, magic mode can be used by a bad guy to cause problems, but then so can a lot of standard UNIX commands, all of which ARE documented. Judging from postings on the net, magic mode is one of the best known undocumented features of the 3b2 line. You can bet your average bad guy knows about it, and not documenting the fact that there is a security problem lurking in your Essential Utilities floppies leaves sites that do not know magic mode exists vulnerable to all sorts of abuse. > > >> Flint Pellett, Global Information Systems Technology, Inc. > >Heff -- Darryl Jacobs Bell Laboratories, Denver att!drumn!darryl Note: I won't even claim these views as mine.
shagar@vpk4.UUCP (Steven Hagar) (03/21/89)
In article <726@ctisbv.UUCP> pim@ctisbv.UUCP (Pim Zandbergen) writes: >But when your processor is not physically secure, neither is the >firmware password. Anyone who can use the Essential Utilities #1 >can also bring their own floppy key with their own firmware password, >or could just disconnect the battery for a while.. EU1 will let you in, but the floppy key diskette will only work on the machine on which it was created. Control of physical access to the machine is still the best/only way to ensure adequate security. -- Steven Hagar . AT&T Canada Inc. . ATTMAIL: !shagar (416) 756-5061 . UUCP: uunet!attcan!shagar
friedl@vsi.COM (Stephen J. Friedl) (03/27/89)
From article <8300010@gistdev>, by flint@gistdev.UUCP: > Yea, Magic Mode is a lot of fun, but it can save tons of time: what > bugs me is why AT&T won't make it into something real and (heaven > forbid) document it. If they document it, they have to support it, and this is probably the reason they don't. "Support" at AT&T means a lot more than "tell you about it", and why should they saddle themselves with more support headaches? Would you want to be the guy at Hotline who walks some bozo through putting their system back together after they trashed it with Magic Mode? Those qualified to use magic mode often find it on their own. Speaking of which, the _3B Journal_ ran an excellent[%] article article a few months ago on how to operate a standalone shell on a 3B2, and those interested in a copy can get one from me by sending your physical mail address. Steve [%] here, "excellent" means "I wrote it" :-) -- Stephen J. Friedl / V-Systems, Inc. / Santa Ana, CA / +1 714 545 6442 3B2-kind-of-guy / friedl@vsi.com / {attmail, uunet, etc}!vsi!friedl "I do everything in software, even DMA" - Gary W. Keefe (garyk@telxon)
flint@gistdev.UUCP (03/31/89)
I may be wrong, but I would guess that proper documentation of magic
mode and some of the simple things you can use it for would save them
support time. Since all magic mode gives you is a root shell that has
fewer commands and capabilities available than the normal one, an
inexperienced user is no more dangerous there than they are running as
root on the normal system.
Let me give a real-life example: A customer of ours who had had 3-4
weeks of training and about a year of experience running their system
created a program to do "something" with /etc/passwd (I don't know
what they were trying to do), set up a cron job to run it, and left.
At 1 am, the program zeroed /etc/passwd. At 2 am, another cron copied
the empty /etc/passwd from the network leader to all the other 8 hosts
on the LAN. (They didn't have any yellow pages, this was SYSV) At 7
am, they came in and nobody could log in anywhere. Confused, they
went to the AT&T documentation, and dutifully followed directions-
they did a partial restore on the network leader and spent 4 hours
re-installing all their software packages from scratch. At 11 am,
they called us saying that everything was all messed up (since they
had now obliterated all of the configuration info for uucp, lp,
/etc/master.d, starlan/rfs, /etc/profile, etc.) and the whole network
was unuseable. Could we help them? We of course found this whole
thing quite humorous, and since they hadn't done anything to the other
machines in the network, we got them fixed up with magic mode in about
2 minutes each, but we spent more than a day getting all the other
junk put back right on the network leader.
Flint Pellett, Global Information Systems Technology, Inc.
1800 Woodfield Drive, Savoy, IL 61874 (217) 352-1165
INTERNET: flint%gistdev@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
UUCP: {uunet,pur-ee,convex}!uiucuxc!gistdev!flint