jim@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Mercer) (08/17/90)
we are a Sys V 3.2.1 license holder. i have been told by our AT&T Source Code Sales rep that there are _no_ online man pages for release 3.2. i find this a little hard to believe. the printed man pages had to come from somewhere. as a license holder, is there anyone out there who will arrange to get these to me? [ we recently upgraded from V7 and miss them a bunch ] -- [ Jim Mercer jim@lsuc.On.Ca || ...!uunet!attcan!lsuc!jim +1 416 947-5258 ] [ Systems Facilitator - Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto, Ontario, CANADA ] [ Standards are great. They give non-conformists something to not conform to. ] [ The opinions expressed here may or may not be those of my employer ]
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (08/19/90)
In article <1990Aug17.161215.2291@lsuc.on.ca> jim@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes: >we are a Sys V 3.2.1 license holder. >i have been told by our AT&T Source Code Sales rep that there are _no_ >online man pages for release 3.2. They are certainly not covered by the UNIX System V license. It is possible that (as with older releases) they may be licensed separately. >as a license holder, is there anyone out there who will arrange to get these >to me? You shouldn't ask people to commit a federal crime in so public a forum.
smd@lsuc.on.ca (Sean Doran) (08/20/90)
In article <13614@smoke.BRL.MIL>, gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) shoots from the hip and writes: >In article <1990Aug17.161215.2291@lsuc.on.ca> jim@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes: >>we are a Sys V 3.2.1 license holder. >>i have been told by our AT&T Source Code Sales rep that there are _no_ >>online man pages for release 3.2. > >They are certainly not covered by the UNIX System V license. >It is possible that (as with older releases) they may be licensed separately. The Law Society of Upper Canada is an educational source-licencee with separate licences for v7 and SVr3.2, both of which includes all sources and documentation related to the operating systems and utilities. We have all the V7 man pages archived on our (now unused) V7 machine, and we have all 30 kg of the printed manual sets. We understand that we do have the right under the licence agreement with AT&T Canada to possess the nroff source to the full reference manual set. Perhaps Mr Gwyn was under the impression that this was not the case. >>as a license holder, is there anyone out there who will arrange to get these >>to me? > >You shouldn't ask people to commit a federal crime in so public a forum. Perhaps Mr Gwyn is also under the impression that lsuc.on.ca is the Law Society of Upper California in Ontario, California, USA. In fact, this is not the case; we are in Canada, where the unauthorised possession of copyrighted materials is a civil offence, not a criminal one. More to the point, it is hardly an offence even under twisty U.S. laws to provide a copy of something one licencee legally holds to another licencee with similar rights to possess a copy. I just wonder whether Mr Gwyn will retire from the military into AT&T's legal department, where they are not yet nearly as 'shoot from the hip, and maybe ask questions later' as he and BRL seem to be. At any rate, if there are any sites which legally hold nroff sources to the reference man pages for System Vr3.2 in Canada or elsewhere (assuming they may export it without the types like Gwyn in the American department of Trade and Export Restrictions breathing down their necks) who has copies of these things which AT&T Canada seem not to have in stock, then jim@lsuc.ON.CA would be interested in knowing about it. -- Sean Doran <lsuc!smd@neat.cs.UToronto.CA> (or, more slowly <smd@lsuc.ON.CA>) and /C=CANADA/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/ID=ICS.TEST/S=TESTGROUP/@nasamail.nasa.gov
lyndon@cs.athabascau.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) (08/21/90)
jim@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes: >i have been told by our AT&T Source Code Sales rep that there are _no_ >online man pages for release 3.2. >i find this a little hard to believe. the printed man pages had to come >from somewhere. >as a license holder, is there anyone out there who will arrange to get these >to me? Har dee har har har! :-) (Sorry Jim.) AT&T has an agreement with Prentice Hall regarding printed manuals that (apparently) prevents AT&T from shipping source to the man pages. I went through this some months ago. For a while, it seemed like they might be able to give us man page source under the terms of our DWB source license, however AT&T was never able to figure out if that was the case or not. Not that they would do you much good - SVR3 doesn't come with nroff or a man command, either. [ Actually, all they were going to get us was the catman (pre-formatted) pages from SVR3.0. ] System V: Just Consider It Bogus. -- Lyndon Nerenberg VE6BBM / Computing Services / Athabasca University {alberta,cbmvax,mips}!atha!lyndon || lyndon@cs.athabascau.ca Practice Safe Government Use Kingdoms
jim@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Mercer) (08/21/90)
in response to my query as to the availability of online man pages for Sys V 3.2.1, this is what i got: > From: Bruce D. Becker <bdb@becker.UUCP> > > Amiga unix comes with AT&T man pages, and there was a > 3.2 version for a while. > From: hedrick@cs.rutgers.edu > > There are certainly man pages, but ATT charges separately. Some > vendors include it in the package, some charge the user, other don't > make it available at all. There have been enough complaints that most > vendors are now supplying them. You should pressure yours to do so > as well. [ it used to be that they can as part of the DWB (nroff) package, but this is no more ] > From: paone@cs.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) > > Until I freed my bonds of AT&T two months ago, I tried to track down > those elusive man pages. They do exist. The only problem is that the > only way to get them is by ordering the source code license > ~10,000.00. I havn't found anyone with that kind of money (even in > AT&T) to check it out, but that is what I was told. [ we ARE a source licensee, and they still tell me i can't have them ] > From: arnold@audiofax.com (Arnold Robbins) > > They do exist, and you can buy them. For a mere $10,000 U.S. Ask again, > a little louder, and you'll find this out. > > Personally, that one has to pay that kind of price for the man pages > really ticks me off.... Can you say "greed", boys and girls? Sigh. > From: gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) > > They are certainly not covered by the UNIX System V license. > It is possible that (as with older releases) they may be licensed separately. > > >as a license holder, is there anyone out there who will arrange to get these > >to me? > > You shouldn't ask people to commit a federal crime in so public a forum. [ it was my understanding that as a source licensee, we can exchange source with other licensees (within limit's, ie. we don't have a DWB license so i can't very well ask someone to provide DWB). as i understand it, we can call up UCB and ask for BSD source as we already have the prerequisite AT&T license (UCB charges a nominal fee as well). my license says, and i quote section 7.05(b): LICENSEE may distribute copies of a SOFTWARE PRODUCT, either in modified or unmodified form, to third parties in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY having licenses of at least equivalent scope .... (AT&T's emphasis) if the man pages do not fit either "SOFTWARE PRODUCT" (which in our case means Unix System V 3.2.1) or are not in the "scope" of our license, i'm sure someone out there would let me know. ] > From: jimm@IMA.ISC.COM (Jim McGrath) > > Interactive includes online man pages with its latest release (2.2) of > V3.2. I believe that SCO does also. I don't know how one buys an > unbundled copy, however. I suggest you contact the sales organization > of either/both SCO and Interactive. Good luck. > From: wdavis@x102c.ess.harris.com (davis william 26373) > > Absolutely correct. When 3.2 came out, ATT had just finished a deal with > Prentice-Hall to have nice manuals printed up. Providing man pages > would have cut into the sales by Prentice-Hall. > From: lyndon@cs.athabascau.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) > > Har dee har har har! :-) (Sorry Jim.) > > AT&T has an agreement with Prentice Hall regarding printed manuals that > (apparently) prevents AT&T from shipping source to the man pages. I > went through this some months ago. For a while, it seemed like they > might be able to give us man page source under the terms of our DWB > source license, however AT&T was never able to figure out if that > was the case or not. Not that they would do you much good - SVR3 > doesn't come with nroff or a man command, either. > > System V: Just Consider It Bogus. why is it that most of the vendors who have licensed 3.2 from AT&T (ie. SCO, interactive, Commodore) issue online man pages, but AT$T (oops) decided to squeeze some additional bucks out? one of the reasons we have a source license is that we would like to alter some of the programs for our environment. it would be nice to update our man pages to reflect these changes. i don't think submitting them to Prentice-Hall for a private run will be very cost effective. 8^) hmmm.... does anyone know if you get FULL online man pages with the Sys V 4.0 source distribution? -- [ Jim Mercer jim@lsuc.On.Ca || ...!uunet!attcan!lsuc!jim +1 416 947-5258 ] [ Systems Facilitator - Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto, Ontario, CANADA ] [ Standards are great. They give non-conformists something to not conform to. ] [ The opinions expressed here may or may not be those of my employer ]
fmcgee@cuuxb.ATT.COM (~XT6561110~Frank McGee~C23~L25~6326~) (08/23/90)
[ some stuff deleted here ] >The Law Society of Upper Canada is an educational source-licencee with >separate licences for v7 and SVr3.2, both of which includes all sources >and documentation related to the operating systems and utilities. We have >all the V7 man pages archived on our (now unused) V7 machine, and we have >all 30 kg of the printed manual sets. We understand that we do have the ^^ >right under the licence agreement with AT&T Canada to possess the nroff >source to the full reference manual set. You might (notice I say "might", since I don't have an exact copy of your license to read) want to check, and make sure it is both the understanding of you AND AT&T CANADA that you have a license for nroff source to the man pages. Under domestic (ie, USA) licenses, the manuals are not considered part of the source product, and the license only covers a printed, paper copy of the man pages. I wasn't working for AT&T when they split the man pages off from the source, but I believe it happened somewhere around the time System V Release 2 was available. The date on all of our man pages here are 1/6/86, so it's been a long while since they were available to us internally. As someone mentioned in another posting today, AT&T does have an agreement with Prentice Hall, and I don't think they would appreciate AT&T giving away something that they intend to sell for real money. But there is some hope on the horizon (for System V Release 4 users atleast). With System V Release 4, binary customers will have man pages available in IDS format (note that this is not the same thing as the nroff source). IDS stands for Information Delivery System, and it's a software package that basically displays text, and can be used to maintain large amounts of text information in an orderly manner. For example, we have some service and technical manuals here that can be accessed through IDS running on another system. You can keyword search from the table of contents, or from a particular section, and it searches every word in the database (your manual) for occurences of those keywords. It then suggests sections for you to look in, and offers to display them for you. As far as display software goes, it's pretty good. Packaging for the man page package has yet to be determined, but it will contain a run-time version of IDS, and the System V Release 4 man pages, in IDS format. I don't know if they intend to charge for the package, when it will be available, and which platforms it will be available on (it will be available atleast for the StarServer E). Other than that, not even internal folks with source licenses have up to date nroff-able manual pages. -- Frank McGee, AT&T Entry Level Systems Support attmail!fmcgee (preferred) att!cuuxb!fmcgee (those that can't reach attmail)