janney@unm-cvax.UUCP (05/19/84)
I'm getting into this late (I normally "n" over Mr. Rosen's articles); apparently Mr. Rosen accused John Williams of stealing from Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" and Holst's "The Planets". There is a place in the score of the original Star Wars that is *very* reminiscent of "The Rite of Spring". It's near the beginning, I think it's the scene where the two droids have just started wandering about in the desert on Tatooine (sp?). Anyway, there is slow, dense, dissonant scoring in the woodwinds with some pizzicatto in the low strings. The overall effect is very similar to the opening of one of the movements in the Rite: sorry, I can't remember the title, but it's the slow movement. If anyone is really interested I could dig it up. I can't think of anything in the score of Star Wars that is much like the Mars movement from the planets, unless you count the heavy use of brass and percussion. Personally, I think it sounds much more like Howard Hanson. I've heard other movie scores of John Williams, but can't remember much about them. The usual purpose of a film score is to support the action without getting in the way: Star Wars is a little unusual in this respect. I'm sure there is no direct stealing from Stravinsky: his music is still copyrighted and zealously protected. In general, borrowing styles or melodies from other composers is not considered reprehensible as long as something original is done with it. Back in the middle ages, it was a respected method of composition.
moriarty@uw-june (Jeff Meyer) (05/20/84)
>I'm sure there is no direct stealing from Stravinsky: his music is still >copyrighted and zealously protected. In general, borrowing styles or >melodies from other composers is not considered reprehensible as long >as something original is done with it. Back in the middle ages, it was >a respected method of composition. I think this about sums it up; I think anyone should think twice before calling Williams, Goldsmith or Horner a "thief". I am no expert on music -- I cannot play a note, and I have only a rather varied knowledge of the last 50 years of film scores to back me up. But while I find some of the previously mentioned composers "derivative" of others (Horner is REAL derivative of Goldsmith in his Space Operettas), I can find stylistic similarities between almost ANY piece of music, given enough fuel for the imagination. Oh, for Deborah Padgett, while there is no question of where James Horner's "Battle Beyond the Stars" and "Star Trek II" music was derived from (Goldsmith's "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" -- Horner freely admitted it), and while he has several themes running frequently in his scores, he has done one or two very original scores -- "Something Wicked This Way Comes" (I believe I'm one of the 12 people in the U.S. who saw it) and another, which escapes me at this time... I'll have to check the library. Another person who I would not call a "thief". Perhaps "lack of originallity" would be a better term... it does not have the negative connotations of "thief", while it is still open for discussion (it is very subjective). "...in an iron coffin, with spikes on the inside!" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer UUCP: {ihnp4,cornell,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ARPANET: moriarty@washington
barry@ames-lm.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (05/23/84)
[Is this food for thought? Or thought for food?]
I agree that accusing Williams of stealing from Stravinsky or
Holst is silly; there are echoes of these composers in many film scores,
but this hardly counts as stealing.
However, to keep the pot stirred up: listen to the score from
"The Bride of Frankenstein" (by Franz Waxman? Not sure), and
see if you don't think that the "Obiwan Kenobe" theme from SW isn't a
pretty exact quote from it. I believe it comes in a scene where the Baron
thinks his new bride is dead.
Kenn Barry
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Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barryjpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) (05/26/84)
> However, to keep the pot stirred up: listen to the score from >"The Bride of Frankenstein" (by Franz Waxman? Not sure), and >see if you don't think that the "Obiwan Kenobe" theme from SW isn't a >pretty exact quote from it. I believe it comes in a scene where the Baron >thinks his new bride is dead. > Kenn Barry I think you mean the scene where the Barons fiancee (an inconsistancy here; in "Frankenstein" the wedding has already taken place whereas in Bride of Frankenstein it has not) thinks the Baron is dead. Yes I know this is nitpicking but I thought I'd start a discussion on Frankenstein films Also I agree with someone out there that Superman is Williams best score. It seems however that his scores for Superman,Raiders, and Star Wars are,putting it mildly ,similar.