nicholaa@pro-carolina.UCSD.EDU (Andy Nicholas) (08/04/87)
Evidently, apple has finally done something worthwhile for the gs and given
us a brand new ROM.. sort of.
According to a mail message that my dealer received n Apple-Link (and read to
me.. and which I saw) the new ROM upgrade is "required to run the new system
utilities." Meaning, of course, ProDOS 2.0
Evidently, there is not enough space for ProDOS 2.0 and the RAM patches to the
code in the toolbox, so apple decided to hard-code them into the rom and make
it permanent. They also seem to have played "crunch-it" with the code enough
to compact the toolsets (through efficient coding, one would guess.. and hope)
so that they could fit 1 or 2 more toolsets from the RAM toolsets into ROM,
now that they are fairly sure the RAM sets are somewhat (and I use that term
loosely) "bug free." Give it your best shot as to what the stuck into ROM...
my guess would be the menu manager and the window manager. and of the older,
well-planned toolsets would be a good guess.
also.. and this is only pure speculation... but the new sets are "supposed" to
have increased menu managing speed by a factor of 3. The new sets are
supposed to bring back "QuickDraw" instead of "SlothDraw"... also, some folks
on CIS are talking about beta-copies of ProDOS 16 - 2.0 and are saying that it
boosts speed increases by some 700%. Wow. That's 2.5 times faster than
diversi-cache... it should really kick rump.
You can tell if you have the new ROMs if you boot your machine and it says on
EACH and EVERY boot:
Apple IIgs
Copyright Apple Computer, Inc ROM Rev 01
That's not exact, but close to what it says... if you have the new roms, do us
some favors, and see what's new about them. see if there are any new
toolsets, stuff like that. Also, weird, but the gs diagnostics v2.0 yield a
version number of 6!!! for the rom...
Andy
UUCP:
[ ihnp4 sdcsvax nosc ] !crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-carolina!nicholaa
ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-carolina!nicholaa@nosc.mil
INET: nicholaa@pro-carolina.cts.colwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (08/07/87)
This article gave me more technical info that I had gotten yet on CIS (thanks a lot!) but I am interested in more yet. What does it mean that 'there wasnt enough room for Prodos 2.0 and the toolsets in ram'? In 256k? That seems rather extreme ; Unix v6 used to fit in 64k, and as far as I am concerned does a WHOLE lot more than Prodos 2.0 looks like it is going to do. Why does it seem that Prodos 16 is so doggone big? Is it being written in 65816? or in a High Level Language? If assembler, do the folks who are doing the coding know the assembler well, or are they primarily high level programmers struggling to get by in assembler? I dont want to criticize - I havent even seen the O/S yet, but I have seen nothing to indicate that true multi-tasking with communications will be built into the O/S; all the darn thing does is write to disks, and I would guess most of that is done in the device handlers. -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 cbosgd!n8emr!lwv HAM/SWL BBS (HBBS) 614-457-4227.. 300/1200 bps We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.
EWING@YALEVM.BITNET (Rick Ewing) (08/10/87)
In reply to Larry Virden's inquiry of whyjust why the patches for the IIgs ROMS and ProDOS-16 2.0 won't fit together, maybe I can shed a little light on the subject. When the IIgs' ROMS were first designed and shipped, there were admittedly several problems, some major, some minor. The the last 9 months that Apple has gotten a chance to improve them, as well as write ProDOS-16 2.0, many of the key routines got to be massaged over. It was Apple's original intent with upgrades to the IIgs was to quietly introduce the new motherboards, and provide RAM patches for all older owners, thus saving tons of bucks in the entire motherboard exchange plan (remember the //c?). But a few factors got in the way of this plan. First, the video chip bug, and this chip was soldered to the main board. Apple had already advertised that there would be upgrades for this chip, and was now locked into this promise. Second, Apple software enginners eventually went back over and modified most routines in the 128K ROM space. As any IIgs owner knows, the current ROMS have serious problems including speed, bugs in the Toolbox calls (several!!!), speed, SCSI bugs, speed, Appletalk not powerful enough, speed, well, you get the idea. Imagine booting up your old IIgs with 128K ROMs and having to dedicate somewhere between 50-100K ofmemory for ROM fixes! Combined with the already bigger than life size of ProDOS-16 2.0, the fact that all of this must run in a space of 256K minimun, that leaves about diddly-squat for any application running. Now I know that any IIgs needs at least 1 meg of memory to even run anything, but it was just too much space for the OS to take up. The new motherboard upgrade will allow Apple engineers to address many design flaws that surfaced in the original machine. In addition to the new faster toolbox, users will definetely get a new video chip. Simple speculation also would point to fixes for the DMA problem, an expanded Control panel with better virtual-real slot management, a new disk controller that will allow use of the new 1.6Meg 3.5" drives when they are introduced, SCSI fixes, and other enhancements. Of course, this is pure speculation, but resonable fixes, and a golden opportunity to include them in the design. Consider it similar to the upgrade from the Revision A to Revision B motherboards of the Apple //e, and then throw in the "enhancement ROM upgrades" for an added bonus. You can see why that all this couldn't just be done with simple RAM patches. Anyway, we will know soon enough on the proposed changes, definetely sometime between now and the Appleworld convention in September. By then, we''ll be getting the IIgs that we should have gotten in the first place. Be thankful that Apple has big bucks into R&D so that we may benefit from these upgrades. --Rick Ewing EWING@YALEVM.Bitnet
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (08/13/87)
I am VERY confused. I have talked to several Apple reps from Cupertino and the local Apple dealers. All that they have discussed are ROM CHIP REPLACEMENTS. Yet in your message there was several references to mother- board replacements, upgrades, etc. Is this another upgrade that is coming sometime in the near future? How many upgrades for the gs is there going to be this year? Any info would be greatly appreciated. -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 cbosgd!n8emr!lwv HAM/SWL BBS (HBBS) 614-457-4227.. 300/1200 bps We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.
EWING@YALEVM.BITNET (Rick Ewing) (08/23/87)
To answer Larry Virden's question about the confusing upgrades, some IIgs owners will need full blown motherboard replacements, others will need only ROM chip replacements. What's happened is that the original old IIgs (Woz) owners all had the old ROM and the old VGC video chip. Since the video chip is soldered to the board, Apple prefers one's dealer to completely replace the motherboard rather than whip out the soldering gun and make a fix. These users will have their motherboard swapped out. Now Apple has been offering a free VGC fix for users for a little while now and some users have gone back for it. These users, along with people that bought their machines in the last couple of months, now have the correct VGC chip, but the old ROMs. These owners will only have to wait for a ten minute ROM upgrade swap, since ROMs on the IIgs are socketed (thus, easily removable). Anyone who buys a IIgs now will have both the new ROMs and the new VGC, and won't have to do anything but watch for ProDOS-16 2.0 and Finder, coming to a IIgs near you, Real Soon Now.
prw@meccsd.MECC.MN.ORG (Paul R. Wenker) (08/28/87)
In article <8708241225.aa06343@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA> EWING@YALEVM.BITNET (Rick Ewing) writes: >To answer Larry Virden's question about the confusing upgrades, some IIgs >owners will need full blown motherboard replacements, others will need only >ROM chip replacements. What's happened is that the original old IIgs (Woz) >owners all had the old ROM and the old VGC video chip. Since the video chip >is soldered to the board, Apple prefers one's dealer to completely replace the >motherboard rather than whip out the soldering gun and make a fix... None of our dozen or so GS's (Woz or not) have the VGC soldered in. Apple has known about the VGC problem since before the machine was released and socketed the chip for that very reason. The reason Apple wants their dealers to do the replacement is that a special tool is required to remove the chip. -Paul R. Wenker -MECC (Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation)
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (08/28/87)
Thanks for the additional info. You might want to take note - From the apple folks at Cupertino (in the GS hardware group - Rob Moore, and in Dealer Tech Support, Sue Goodin/Goodwin (I dont know if that w is in there or not) I have been told SPECIFICALLY that there will not be ANY motherboard upgrades directly related to the vgc/rom upgrades. Why this differs from R. Ewing's info I do not understand - both Rob and Sue were quite emphatic that there was no motherboard swaps planned. -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 cbosgd!n8emr!lwv HAM/SWL BBS (HBBS) 614-457-4227.. 300/1200 bps We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.
gwyn@BRL.ARPA (Doug Gwyn, VLD/VMB) (08/29/87)
Perhaps someone with an old-VGC IIGS could check whether or not the VGC is REALLY soldered onto the motherboard. Mine is in a (bakelite-looking) socket. The VGC is under the power supply, which is quite easy to remove (unsnap the front and lift). If the VGCs are ALL like mine, then that would explain why no motherboard swaps would be necessary.
EWING@YALEVM.BITNET (Rick Ewing) (09/01/87)
Whoops, my mistake. The IWM chip is soldered to the board, not the VGC chip. I should know better than that. --Rick Ewing
EWING@YALEVM.BITNET (Rick Ewing) (09/01/87)
Now I'm really confused (and about five days out of this current thread so please forgive my lack of memory. Apparently, I got confused because the last time I looked under the hood of a IIgs, I thought the VGC chip was soldered down (something I've known that wasn't for quite awhile, but brain rot has set in with the start of another academic year). With that in mind, the VGC/ROM changes should not require any more than chip pulling of the flawed *socketed* chips. That's for setting me straight. Any more goofs like that, and I'll have to keep my big mouth shut around here. :) --Rick Ewing
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (09/04/87)
Oh, Rick, NOW things are becoming clear. I have heard a few rumors about a new (?) IWM that will allow the MAC folks to get 1.6 meg on the standard Sony drives. Perhaps THAT is the motherboard swap that you have heard about... Note. A couple of folks who have gotten recent motherboard swaps and talked about it on Compuserve claim that they can no longer run DOS 3.3 programs - do you suppose there is a connection? -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 cbosgd!n8emr!lwv HAM/SWL BBS (HBBS) 614-457-4227.. 300/1200 bps We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.
ranger@ecsvax.UUCP (Rick N. Fincher) (09/12/87)
The posting that says the VGC chip is soldered into the gs is incorrect. I have a Woz machine and mine, and every other gs I have seen, has a socketed VGC. The dealers instructions even specify the tools needed to extract it. Rick Fincher ranger@ecsvax
BHUBER@ECLA.USC.EDU (09/15/87)
As a follow-up to the installation of new GS ROMS, I have had mine on order for about a month, but the dealer says he has received only 4 from Apple and that I was below that on the queue. That's fine with me for now, because I recall that someone indicated these new ROMS/VGC introduce some errors/bugs into the system. Is that correct, or am I mistaken about the earlier info? Also, is hard disk i/o any faster with the new ROMS? Thanks, Bud
ranger@ecsvax.UUCP.UUCP (09/24/87)
At Applefest I heard several of the manufacturers say that the new ROMs goofed up their programs. MD Ideas software for their digitizing card for example. They say it's Apple's fault (but they probably didn't follow the rules). They already have an upgrade for it. I was told that Apple is putting disk cacheing into the new vew version of Prodos but that won't be out for awhile. Rick
CDTAXW@IRISHMVS.BITNET.UUCP (09/24/87)
Anyone know if Activision has a version of Music Studio which works with the new ROMs? It appears to be one of the programs which doesn't follow the rules ... Thanks. Mark
kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) (09/25/87)
In article <8709240255.AA08230@ecsvax.uucp> ranger@ecsvax.UUCP ("Rick N. Fincher") writes: >At Applefest I heard several of the manufacturers say that the new ROMs goofed >up their programs. MD Ideas software for their digitizing card for example. >They say it's Apple's fault (but they probably didn't follow the rules). >They already have an upgrade for it. I was told that Apple is putting disk >cacheing into the new version of Prodos but that won't be out for awhile. > >Rick Well, according to the "programming the //gs" panel, was it David Eyes who said that the incompatability problems were caused by the fact that the toolbox calls were being more strictly inforced now, such as requiring reserved bytes to be zeroed or somesuch, and that a lot oof manufacturers got caught doing it, either knowingly or not. Also note, the GS BASIC interepretter is in a beta version. I found out a lot of neat stuff at Applefest, and I am compiling a long message that tells all about it. I should post it by Sunday. Sean -- UUCP: {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs ihnp4}!tektronix!reed!kamath CSNET: reed!kamath@Tektronix.CSNET || BITNET: reed!kamath@Berkeley.BITNET ARPA: tektronix!reed!kamath@Berkeley <or> reed!kamath@hplabs US Snail: 3934 SE Boise, Portland, OR 97202 (I hate 4 line .sigs!)
brad@ucrmath.UUCP (Brad Olive) (09/25/87)
In article <8709241108.aa25010@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA> CDTAXW@IRISHMVS.BITNET ("Mark B. Johnson") writes: >Anyone know if Activision has a version of Music Studio which >works with the new ROMs? It appears to be one of the programs >which doesn't follow the rules ... > >Thanks. >Mark Activision is planning an update to correct the problem. To get the current version that you have to work you need to do the following: 1) Prepare a prodos data disk 2) Copy ALL wavebank and sound files to this disk from the original Be sure to include the ones in the subdirectory 3) Delete all sound and wavebank files from the original Now the system will work. Once you have booted the original, the sound and wavebanks may be loaded. Activision would not give any particulars about this problem other than to follow this procedure. They do not know when or how much their new enhanced/upgraded version will run. I've done this and had no problems. #=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#= Brad Olive Department of Mathematics and Computer Science University of California Riverside, CA 92521 (714) 787-3236 UUCP: ..!{ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax,ucla-cs}!ucrmath!brad INTERNET: brad%ucrmath.uucp@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu brad%ucrmath.uucp@ics.uci.edu
ranger@ecsvax.UUCP (10/01/87)
In article <8709241108.aa25010@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA>, CDTAXW@IRISHMVS.BITNET ("Mark B. Johnson") writes: > Anyone know if Activision has a version of Music Studio which > works with the new ROMs? It appears to be one of the programs > which doesn't follow the rules ... > > Thanks. > Mark Mark, I saw Music Studio running under the new gs finder (desktop) at the Activision booth, so I assume they have an upgrade. I also heard that Activision was dropping copy protection on their programs (this may be why it doesn't work with the new ROMs). You may have to call them to find out. PS there is a 1 byte patch that unprotects music studio, I can post it if you are interest- ed. Rick Fincher ranger@ecsvax
gwyn@brl-smoke.UUCP (10/04/87)
In article <3947@ecsvax.UUCP> ranger@ecsvax.UUCP (Rick N. Fincher) writes: >PS there is a 1 byte patch that unprotects music studio, I can post it if >you are interested. Please do -- my cursory investigation of copy protection schemes for 3.5" disks for the IIGS seems to show that they all rely on a funny format for block 7, and that the PRODOS file has a small patch (two bytes, I thought) that lets it read the "corrupted" block. As a large disk user, I get EXTREMELY annoyed at software that insists I insert a 3.5" disk to operate! (Note that I paid for all the software I use -- I'm not a thief.)
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (10/06/87)
According to folks who use Music Studio , the 'old' version of Music studio will work fine if you get rid of the music file that plays upon bootup of the disk... -- Larry W. Virden 75046,606 (CIS) 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 cbosgd!n8emr!lwv HAM/SWL BBS (HBBS) 614-457-4227.. 300/1200 bps We haven't inherited the world from our parents, but borrowed it from our children.