janney@unm-cvax.UUCP (05/19/84)
I'm getting into this late (I normally "n" over Mr. Rosen's articles); apparently Mr. Rosen accused John Williams of stealing from Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" and Holst's "The Planets". There is a place in the score of the original Star Wars that is *very* reminiscent of "The Rite of Spring". It's near the beginning, I think it's the scene where the two droids have just started wandering about in the desert on Tatooine (sp?). Anyway, there is slow, dense, dissonant scoring in the woodwinds with some pizzicatto in the low strings. The overall effect is very similar to the opening of one of the movements in the Rite: sorry, I can't remember the title, but it's the slow movement. If anyone is really interested I could dig it up. I can't think of anything in the score of Star Wars that is much like the Mars movement from the planets, unless you count the heavy use of brass and percussion. Personally, I think it sounds much more like Howard Hanson. I've heard other movie scores of John Williams, but can't remember much about them. The usual purpose of a film score is to support the action without getting in the way: Star Wars is a little unusual in this respect. I'm sure there is no direct stealing from Stravinsky: his music is still copyrighted and zealously protected. In general, borrowing styles or melodies from other composers is not considered reprehensible as long as something original is done with it. Back in the middle ages, it was a respected method of composition.
moriarty@uw-june (Jeff Meyer) (05/20/84)
>I'm sure there is no direct stealing from Stravinsky: his music is still >copyrighted and zealously protected. In general, borrowing styles or >melodies from other composers is not considered reprehensible as long >as something original is done with it. Back in the middle ages, it was >a respected method of composition. I think this about sums it up; I think anyone should think twice before calling Williams, Goldsmith or Horner a "thief". I am no expert on music -- I cannot play a note, and I have only a rather varied knowledge of the last 50 years of film scores to back me up. But while I find some of the previously mentioned composers "derivative" of others (Horner is REAL derivative of Goldsmith in his Space Operettas), I can find stylistic similarities between almost ANY piece of music, given enough fuel for the imagination. Oh, for Deborah Padgett, while there is no question of where James Horner's "Battle Beyond the Stars" and "Star Trek II" music was derived from (Goldsmith's "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" -- Horner freely admitted it), and while he has several themes running frequently in his scores, he has done one or two very original scores -- "Something Wicked This Way Comes" (I believe I'm one of the 12 people in the U.S. who saw it) and another, which escapes me at this time... I'll have to check the library. Another person who I would not call a "thief". Perhaps "lack of originallity" would be a better term... it does not have the negative connotations of "thief", while it is still open for discussion (it is very subjective). "...in an iron coffin, with spikes on the inside!" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer UUCP: {ihnp4,cornell,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ARPANET: moriarty@washington
barry@ames-lm.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (05/23/84)
[Is this food for thought? Or thought for food?]
I agree that accusing Williams of stealing from Stravinsky or
Holst is silly; there are echoes of these composers in many film scores,
but this hardly counts as stealing.
However, to keep the pot stirred up: listen to the score from
"The Bride of Frankenstein" (by Franz Waxman? Not sure), and
see if you don't think that the "Obiwan Kenobe" theme from SW isn't a
pretty exact quote from it. I believe it comes in a scene where the Baron
thinks his new bride is dead.
Kenn Barry
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Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barrycbspt002@abnjh.UUCP (Marc E. Kenig ) (05/23/84)
theme or rhythmic motif which is exactly taken from another composer's
work, he is stealing. He is not going to do this.
Granted he may want to work in the style of another composer. A not
previously mentioned example is the Wagner cloned music at the end
of SW-ROTJ, in the Luke vs. Darth battle. It is not uncommon for composers
to adopt the style of a composer they admire. Sullivan does this throughout
the operas with Gilbert, Stravinsky had a whole period in which he composed
in other musico's styles. Mimmicry is the most sincere form of flattery, and
Williams seems to want to flatter many a composers' memory.
Or, maybe he is backhandedly trying to get the hoi poloi to appreciate
classical music more by gentle introduction ("Hey that Wagner guy composes
just like the Star Wars theme..."). This phenomenon is most readily
observed in Also Sprach Zaratheustra (R. Strauss) most commonly being
identified by the populus as "the theme from 2001".
I refuse to believe that Williams simply lacks creativity. The handling
of the low strings in the Superman march (also my favorite) belies a
mastery of composition. I would love to hear any Williams non-film work.
Just an opinion from an opinionated classical music lover...
M. Kenig ["Share and Enjoy"]
AT&T-IS, S. Plainfield (no matter what the From: line says.)
...!abnjh!cbspt002dp@astrovax.UUCP (Deborah L. Padgett) (05/23/84)
I find the assertion that just because a piece of music has a similar rhythm to
some other piece, it must have been "stolen" from the "original" (usually
classical) work ludicrous. I agree that the Imperial March captures the
atmosphere and intensity of Holst's "Mars" (for which I complement Williams),
but the march form of the piece and its straightforward, rather than atonal,
melodic approach are a far cry from the earlier work; as a matter of fact,
I like the Imperial March better. Williams may have been inspired by Holst,
Wagner, Stravinsky, etc., but they, in turn, were inspired by a host of others.
In fact, most of these classical composers did their best to emulate one or
more of their peers in a mentor/apprentice relationship. Some, like R. Strauss
imitating Wagner, enhanced the style of the "original" composer considerably
even if his music "sounds familiar".
No form of music, classical or otherwise, has ever "sprung full-grown from the
mind of a single creator. Styles evolve as each contributing composer inserts
a little of his or her own individualism into their work. The only difference
between Williams and the composers of the classics is the span of time between
his works and theirs; the Romantic style that he composes has been largely
submerged by the atonality of most "serious" music written during the 20th
century. Anyone writing a fugue for organ would have similar problems and
would undoubtably look to Bach's century for inspiration.
In addition, I question whether those who claim to like the music of Jerry
Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann but not John Williams have really been listening
to the latter's music. I enjoy the music of both of these other composers,
but they share Williams' recognizability. Herrmann seems to have had a further
tendancy to write "Mickey Mouse" scores (music which reflects the slightest
action occurring on the screen) and is perhaps the
most literal musical interpreter of
movie special effects. Although his "North by Northwest" is one of my
favorite scores, I have howled with laughter at his "Giant Lizard" piece from
"Journey to the Center of the Earth"; Williams' music for Lost in Space is
MUCH better than this! I needn't mention "It's Alive" or "It Lives Again"
("...there's only one thing wrong with the Jones baby - IT'S ALIVE!!" remember?)
which were Herrmann's final "works", but I will anyway, in case Rich Rosen
has forgotten... Jerry Goldsmith is my second favorite film composer. He
occasionally has flashes of inspiration (PATTON maybe; I haven't figured out
where he got that one yet), but mostly he shuttles between a clear melodic
style which is very similar to Williams and a standard atonal score.
The latter style is usually characterized by a single unobtrusive theme which
is punctuated by violent bursts of nonharmonious sound (PLANET OF THE APES,
ALIEN, OUTLAND, POLTERGEIST). I can clearly distinguish his Wagnerian style
scores from those of Williams, but some people obviously cannot (or don't
try). My only real complaint with Goldsmith is that he doesn't write pieces that
are musically complete. He always seems to be unsure of how to end his music,
unlike Williams, who organizes his music into distinct themes and set pieces
which interplay in the score, but also exist independently of it. The only
exception to this rule seems to be Goldsmith's score for "STAR TREK - THE
MOTION PICTURE" (my favorite score of his) which, I claim, was inspired
by STAR WARS and shares many of its characteristics. In addition, the Klingon
music mentioned by an earlier article also sounds very much like Holst's
"MARS". In any case, I enjoy the music of all these composers and others
(like John Barry and Miklos Rosa), and I regret that some people refuse to
recognize the merit of film music in general, or John Williams in particular.wws@whuxle.UUCP (Stoll H William) (05/24/84)
"Can you read my mind?" from Superman I is very similar to a major theme from Strauss's "Death and Transfiguration" (at least for the first two measures...) --Bill Stoll (ihnp4!whuxle!wws)
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (05/24/84)
[] Folks, Folks, don't get so upset over theme stealing. This has been going on for eons. Anyone remember Arron Copland? He was honored all over the place, but nearly everything he ever did was a ripoff from someplace else. Listen to Rodeo sometime, then get an album of classic Mexican folksongs. The two will sound the same. Take a listen to Grand Canyon Suite. If you don't hear half-a-dozen other themes, your not paying attention. Great Balls of fire, music writers depend on themes others have written. T. C. Wheeler
jpg@sdchema.UUCP (Jerry Greenberg) (05/26/84)
> However, to keep the pot stirred up: listen to the score from >"The Bride of Frankenstein" (by Franz Waxman? Not sure), and >see if you don't think that the "Obiwan Kenobe" theme from SW isn't a >pretty exact quote from it. I believe it comes in a scene where the Baron >thinks his new bride is dead. > Kenn Barry I think you mean the scene where the Barons fiancee (an inconsistancy here; in "Frankenstein" the wedding has already taken place whereas in Bride of Frankenstein it has not) thinks the Baron is dead. Yes I know this is nitpicking but I thought I'd start a discussion on Frankenstein films Also I agree with someone out there that Superman is Williams best score. It seems however that his scores for Superman,Raiders, and Star Wars are,putting it mildly ,similar.
rlw@wxlvax.UUCP (Richard L. Wexelblat) (05/30/84)
The Hollywood composers of today (and since the 40s) are without doubt the best orchestrators ever. They are for the most part musically descended from Rimsky-Korsakov in their ability to create feeling and mood through orchestration -- as opposed to melody. (The skill is, however, a technical one: even if you don't like, say, jazz, you might still be able to appreciate the piano virtuosity of a Peterson.) There is a difference between quotation and plagiarism -- and the difference is acknowledgement. The grand finale of Close Encounters (Mod II) explicitly quoted from the song "When you wish upon a star" from Disney's "Snow White." It gave me the giggles as I thought of the seven dwarfs climbing aboard this giant Simon Game in the sky. Nevertheless, it was an impressive use of a simple theme in a complex orchestral schema establishing a mood and building on it. Manipulative? Of course. That's exactly what film scores are for. Williams, however, quotes without acknowledement. He is a hack melodist combined with a fantastic orchestrator and an excellent "musico-psychological" manipulator. It's fun to try to sort out all of the sources of themes from "Star Wars." The Holst is obvious. The Wagner is not there, I think. Try looking for Schumann, though. He appears twice. I have forgotten at the moment the source for the barroom music. I remember being highly surprised when I heard that jazzy theme on a record made at least a decade prior to the movie. --Dick Wexelblat P.S. What tune from Gilbert and Sullivan appeared on "Hill Street Blues" this season?