mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) (10/16/87)
In-Reply-To:
Apple is making the Apple II and the Mac more and more compatible -- they now
share Appletalk, a common keyboard, and I've heard that it is now possible
for one system to read 3.5-inch disks written by the other. I think the main
problem with the Apple II is that it's too slow, but the Apple II has a
humungous software base that the Mac doesn't yet have. The solution then is
to make a Mac that can run Apple II software. If they can get the Mac II to
run UNIX, how hard can it be to put the entire ROM of a IIGS on a card for
the Mac II? Even Applesoft wouldn't be too bad running at 16 megahertz.
Michael Wertheim
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA
Arpa: mw22@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet: mw22@cmuccvma
UUCP: ...!{seismo, ucbvax, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!mw22#cs162fed@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (Grobbins) (10/17/87)
In article <8VRXrly00XoDFAM08g@andrew.cmu.edu> mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) writes: >Even Applesoft wouldn't be too bad running at 16 megahertz. [on a Mac II] Imagine Integer etrs g.Uy
scott@geowhiz.UUCP (Scott Kempf) (10/19/87)
In article <791@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU> cs162fed@sdcc18.ucsd.edu.UUCP (Grobbins) writes: >In article <8VRXrly00XoDFAM08g@andrew.cmu.edu> mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) writes: >>Even Applesoft wouldn't be too bad running at 16 megahertz. [on a Mac II] > >Imagine Integer Basic... Do NOT compare clock speeds between different microprocessors. Doesn't work. Here is a fictional example: If the 45735 microprocessor has a clock speed of 5Mhz and the 9898 microprocessor has a clock speed of 9Mhz. If an instruction takes 10 clock cycles on the 9898, and only 4 on the 45735. Then the 45735 will execute the same insturction faster, although the clock speed is slower. Even if 45735 run an add instruction slower than the 9898, it still may be faster, since 45735 could be doing a 32 bit add while the 9898 may only be doing an 8 bit add. While I don't know about the 68xxx series (the MACs), I know that the 80xxx (IBMs) use more cycles to do operations than the 65xxx (IIs). So when someone compares your Apple's 1Mhz (2.6Mhz in //gs) to an IBM remember, that's not a far way to compare computers. (I regret to admit that IBMs are faster, but clock speed doesn't tell you that) Scott -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Scott Kempf Mother do you think they'll drop The Bomb? MAIL: 1302 Rutledge St., Madison, WI 53703 PHONE: (608) 255-6205 (home) UUCP: {seismo, topaz, harvard, ihnp4}!uwvax!geowhiz!scott ARPA: geowhiz!scott@spool.wisc.edu PHONE: (608) 262-6154 (work) BITNET: scott%geowhiz.uucp%spool.wisc.edu@wiscvm.bitnet
dr@ski.UUCP (David Robins) (10/19/87)
In article <> mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) writes: . . >The solution then is >to make a Mac that can run Apple II software. If they can get the Mac II to >run UNIX, how hard can it be to put the entire ROM of a IIGS on a card for >the Mac II? Even Applesoft wouldn't be too bad running at 16 megahertz. > > >Michael Wertheim >Carnegie Mellon University >Pittsburgh, PA > Have you heard of " ][ in a Mac (Ver. 2.0) " by RAK-WARE? It claims to emulate the Apple II, runs DOS 3.3/ProDos, machine language, on a 512K or MACPLUS. "Supports all Apple II features such as HI/LO-RES graphics, 40.80 col text, language card and joystick. Also included: clock, RAM disk, keyboard buffer, on-screen HELP, access to the desk accessories and support for 4 logical disk drives." Price: $75.00 RAK-WARE 41 Ralph Road W. Orange, NJ 07052 (201) 325-1885 -- ==================================================================== David Robins, M.D. Smith-Kettlewell Eye Research Foundation (previously known as: Smith-Kettlewell Institute of Visual Sciences) 2232 Webster St; San Francisco CA 94115 415/561-1705 (voice) {ihnp4,qantel,dual}!ptsfa!ski!dr The opinions expressed herein do not reflect the opinion of the Institute!
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (10/20/87)
It doesn't matter how fast a system excecutes an Applesoft program. The problem is not execution speed per se. Applesoft's main shortcomings are the following: 1. It is interpreted, not compiled. An interpreted language is not in itself bad, in fact it is nice to have an interpreter for applications development. But it is much better to have a compiled executable to use on a daily basis rather than an interpreted source. 2. Applesoft is saddled with the traditional negatives of BASIC; single scope, tendency to create confused code, lack of modern control structures (e.g., switch/case or do/until), etc. 3. Applesoft does not allow the programmer to create modules or functions that can operate with local variables. C, for instance, makes it possible to create an endless library of functions which can work equally well in any number of programs without a single bit of modification. In Applesoft you can create subroutines, but the variables they use must always be the variables of a given program. 4. Applesoft is linenumber oriented, and does not permit free formatting of program lines. Applesoft was very useful 7-10 years ago, but its shortcomings are so great that it cannot be used as a serious programming language when compared to newer BASICs such as Z-BASIC or MICOL-BASIC. Bill ====================================================================== I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization .........................How's that, Gary? ======================================================================
fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (10/20/87)
In article <791@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU>, cs162fed@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (Grobbins) writes: > In article <8VRXrly00XoDFAM08g@andrew.cmu.edu> mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) writes: > >Even Applesoft wouldn't be too bad running at 16 megahertz. [on a Mac II] > > Imagine Integer Basic... Imagine, on the other hand, getting *correct* numeric results. In Applesoft, you often have occasion to find that A # A... seh
mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) (10/21/87)
Re: Comments about Applesoft's shortcomings
Normally, when I have to write a program on my Apple //c, the only
language around is Applesoft. (I wouldn't touch Apple Pascal with a 10-foot
pole.)
A good alternative to Applesoft -- more like "enhancement" -- is the
Software Touch's "ProBasic." It is fully Applesoft-compatible. It lets you
write procedures and functions either in Applesoft (with local variables) or
machine language. Procedures and functions can have either value or variable
parameters. Even recursion is possible. Procedures and functions can be
saved and loaded indpendent of the main program. (Also, local variables mean
you can declare an array in a procedure, and when the procedure exits, the
array is forgotten.)
An "else" statement has been added to the if/then construct, but
"while" and "repeat" loops are still missing. Abstract data types are also
missing.
The neat thing: true random access files. You can declare an array
to exist on disk (ramdisk unless you have a lot of time). Then a statement
like "A(1) = 0" will write to the file, and "PRINT A(1)" will read from the
file.
Michael Wertheim
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA
Arpa: mw22@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet: mw22@cmuccvma
UUCP: ...!{seismo, ucbvax, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!mw22#nazgul@apollo.uucp (Kee Hinckley) (10/21/87)
In article <8VRXrly00XoDFAM08g@andrew.cmu.edu> mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) writes: > share Appletalk, a common keyboard, and I've heard that it is now possible > for one system to read 3.5-inch disks written by the other. I think the main Does anyone know where I can get that software? > humungous software base that the Mac doesn't yet have. The solution then is > to make a Mac that can run Apple II software. If they can get the Mac II to That is currently possible. Two companies sell software emulation systems to do just that. On a standard Mac they run at about 75% speed. I suspect that on the Mac ][ they would exceed standard Apple speed. -nazgul -- ### {mit-erl,yale,uw-beaver}!apollo!nazgul ### apollo!nazgul@eddie.mit.edu ### ### pro-angmar!nazgul@pro-sol.cts.com ### nazgul@apollo.com ### ### (617) 641-3722 300/1200/2400 ### ### I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.
sipples@husc2.UUCP (sipples) (10/22/87)
>>share Appletalk, a common keyboard, and I've heard that it is now possible >>for one system to read 3.5-inch disks written by the other. I think the main >Does anyone know where I can get the software? APPLE2-L@BROWNVM has a IIGS program which reads 400K Mac disks. Send an INDEX APPLE2-L to LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET using your system's mail program. Get the names of the files you want, then mail SENDME APPLE2-L [filename] to LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET. (This procedure has been described elsewhere. DO NOT SEND FILE REQUESTS TO APPLE2-L@BROWNVM.) Timothy Sipples | ARPA: sipples%husc2@husc6.harvard.edu | BITNET: sipples@husc3 | UUCP: ...ihnp4!seismo!harvard!husc6!husc2!sipples
halp@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU ("Bruce P. Halpern") (10/24/87)
A commercial program ProLink, runs on a Mac, converting between Apple ][ text files on 3.5 in disk (800k) and Mac text files (400K or 800K). One 800K drive is required. Only text files will work, but the program, plus the Mac interface, is so easy to use that the documentation is more of a problem than an aid. It costs about $40. Unfortunately, I don't have the publisher's name with me. ****DISCLAMER: My comments, etc., are my own shakey opinions ******** | Bruce P. Halpern Psychology & Neurobiology & Behavior Cornell Ithaca | | ARPA: halp@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu | | BITNET: HALP@CRNLTHRY D57J@CORNELLA D57J@CRNLVAX5 | | PHONE: 607-255-6433 Uris Hall, Cornell U., Ithaca, NY 14853-7601 |
halp@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU ("Bruce P. Halpern") (11/19/87)
RE: Apple ][ to Mac and back. ProLink, published by ALSoft, Inc. (P.O. Box 927, Spring TX 77383-0927. tel: 713-353-1510), allows text files to be converted between 3.5 inch disks in Apple ][ and Mac format. The Apple ][ disk must be 800K. The Mac disk can be 400K or 800K. The Mac must be a Mac 512 or above, and must have at least one 800K drive. Costs about $50. I have used this program several times now, going from my ][c's Apple Unidisk 3.5 to a Mac 512E, or visa versa. Always worked quickly and perfectly. Note that AppleWorks files, at least, will lose all format when converted into text. However, that's usually a small price to pay. ****DISCLAMER: My comments, etc., are my own shakey opinions ******** | Bruce P. Halpern Psychology & Neurobiology & Behavior Cornell Ithaca | | ARPA: halp@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu | | BITNET: HALP@CRNLTHRY D57J@CORNELLA D57J@CRNLVAX5 | | PHONE: 607-255-6433 Uris Hall, Cornell U., Ithaca, NY 14853-7601 |
nazgul@apollo.uucp (Kee Hinckley) (12/15/87)
In article <8711191417.AA17706@tcgould.TN.CORNELL.EDU> halp@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU ("Bruce P. Halpern") writes: > RE: Apple ][ to Mac and back. > > ProLink, published by ALSoft, Inc. (P.O. Box 927, Spring TX 77383-0927. tel: > 713-353-1510), allows text files to be converted between 3.5 inch disks in > Apple ][ and Mac format. The Apple ][ disk must be 800K. The Mac disk can be > 400K or 800K. The Mac must be a Mac 512 or above, and must have at least one > 800K drive. Costs about $50. The utilties disk with System 4.2 on the Mac includes a program that will read and write IBM and Apple ][ 800 disks. -- ### {mit-erl,yale,uw-beaver}!apollo!nazgul ### (Apple ][e ProLine BBS) ### ### apollo!nazgul@eddie.mit.edu ### nazgul@pro-angmar.cts.com ### ### nazgul@apollo.com ### (617) 641-3722 300/1200/2400 ### I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.