MCL9337@TAMVENUS.BITNET (03/29/88)
I admit the response to the "That's what I thought school was for" was a little broad in scope. The first thought I got on this matter was not like what that person said! I believe school was VERY useful. The problem with your statement is that the kind of things you learn in computer class are NOTHING like what you learn by hacking, etc. The point the person was trying to make about the software crackers was that they will learn very machine specific things. More complicated things like DOS formats and machine language are NOT usually taught in school! The best you get is a wimpy BASIC course or something. I had to take a BASIC course my Senior year in high school. It was a big laugh! I had taught myself BASIC two years before that! I learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from that class. School (not including college) can not come close to teaching you anything about the more complicated aspects of computing! -=sb=- mcl9337@tamvenus.bitnet
TMURPHY@WPI.BITNET (04/01/88)
I did a paper on computer education in secondary schools, and my partner and I came to the conclusion that schools probably teach TOO much programming. Most people who use computers rarely, if ever, have to program them. Even as That type of education really belongs in college. There is one thing that piratig teaches well, though. How to be a thief. ________________________________________________________ Thomas C. Murphy Worcester Polytechnic Institute BITNET: TMURPHY@WPI Arpanet: tmurphy%wpi.bitnet@talcott.harvard.edu
kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) (04/06/88)
In article <8803281912.aa01446@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA> MCL9337@TAMVENUS.BITNET writes: > [a discussion on the usefullness of school] > > The best you get is a wimpy BASIC course or something. I had to >take a BASIC course my Senior year in high school. It was a big laugh! I had >taught myself BASIC two years before that! I learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from >that class. I was in a similar position, especially in the fact that our teacher had less experience than I with computers. Even so, I was in the minority, and I feel that people really ought to be allowed to trundle through these little classes. I feel that everyone who is going to *use* a computer have a *little* bit of programming "practice". If for nothing else, to appreciate the work involved in creating something like Paintworks Plus. . . But -- >School (not including college) can not come close to teaching you anything >about the more complicated aspects of computing! Not even in college, for the most part. For a short time, I was going around yapping about how silly it was to be a CS major. I also had my reasons, but. . . Well. Let me say, I've had three classes in computing (languages. None is "use".), one when I was in 8th grade, one in 10th, and the last in 12th. I am now a "senior" in college, and have done quite well all by myself, in that I can get a good job programming in C (the classes I took were in BASIC and assembler). So what is school for? Since I am a "physics" major and not a "CompSci" major, I cannot take upper division CS classes (never mind that reed only has two classes *total* in CS). And the only low level CS class (at PSU) that I have interrest in (language-wise) is intro C! Now, I just finished working for a guy, programming in C for about 6 months! he was a computer consultant for a rater large company, and he knew what he was doing. Don't you think he would have fired me if I needed to take an intro C class? What's the point, sean. Well, the point is, school is what you make of it. I know CS majors (who've graduated) who don't know C, and are currently working for Profs doing Dbase conversions (really!) and such. My "hobby" is the Apple ][. It has helped me a great deal in learning about computers. So I know a lot from a "hackers" point of view (though not the typical 13 year-old-hacker-stuff most people think about. I wrote programs, I didn't spend all night cracking games. Though occasionally I did similar stuff, as it really helped me learn tricky Assem stuff), but not ins a structured manner. For this, I sometimes get caught. I want to take a date structures class, but fear I will get bored as the Prof talks about how to use the structures. I know how, just not why. And if you ask me why I am a "physic" major instead of a CS major, I will tell you what I tell everyone. Computers are tools, not and end unto themselves. And I want them to help me build things. Preferable things that fly. Computing is a hobby. It just happens to be a hobby that pays well. Sean Kamath PS I feel sorry for some CS majors. They keep getting told massive starting saleries for CS majors, yet get out there and realize they don't have enough practicle experience to make that starting salery. Ug. Sorry it was so long. -- UUCP: {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs ihnp4}!tektronix!reed!kamath CSNET: reed!kamath@Tektronix.CSNET || BITNET: reed!kamath@PSUVAX1.BITNET ARPA: reed!kamath@psuvax1.arpa US Snail: 3934 SE Boise, Portland, OR 97202 (I hate 4 line .sigs!)
buyse@convex.UUCP (04/06/88)
No one should become a Computer Scientist solely for the money, though it is a
definite incentive. I have seen undergraduates drop by the wayside in
droves because they never should have been CS majors in the first place.
I hope that CS is finally past the recent trend where every "no-major"
undergraduate decided to major in CS because it was "the wave of the
future".
-Russell Buyse.
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!buyselaba-4an@web4d.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (04/06/88)
In article <8652@reed.UUCP> kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) writes: >In article <8803281912.aa01446@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA> MCL9337@TAMVENUS.BITNET writes: >> [a discussion on the usefullness of school] >> >> The best you get is a wimpy BASIC course or something. I had to >>take a BASIC course my Senior year in high school. It was a big laugh! I had >>taught myself BASIC two years before that! I learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from >>that class. That's why teachers are human. If you had asked, they probably would have let you do something more creative with your time (I got to play with a Mac during an introductory computer course that was bundled with driver's ed :-) ). >>School (not including college) can not come close to teaching you anything >>about the more complicated aspects of computing! > >Not even in college, for the most part. For a short time, I was going >around yapping about how silly it was to be a CS major. I also had my >reasons, but. . . Well. Let me say, I've had three classes in computing >(languages. None is "use".), one when I was in 8th grade, one in 10th, and >the last in 12th. I am now a "senior" in college, and have done quite well >all by myself, in that I can get a good job programming in C (the classes I >took were in BASIC and assembler). So what is school for? Let's put this into perspective. I can't speak for everyone, but I learned Pascal in high school, Scheme (a dialect of Lisp) my first semester of College (cs60a), and C and VAX assembler the second (cs60b). Data structures and algorithms for their manipulation come in the third part (cs60c). This is the first year and a half of college. Unless you graduate early, their are two and a half more years... everything from interfacing hardware and software to VLSI design (sneaking into grad classes has been done before). Let us not thumb our noses at the entire educational system just because some schools aren't prepared to teach a good programming course. >-- >UUCP: {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs ihnp4}!tektronix!reed!kamath >CSNET: reed!kamath@Tektronix.CSNET || BITNET: reed!kamath@PSUVAX1.BITNET >ARPA: reed!kamath@psuvax1.arpa >US Snail: 3934 SE Boise, Portland, OR 97202 (I hate 4 line .sigs!) -- "lisp" (n) - Acronym for Lots of Irritating Single Parenthesis.
mw22+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Alan Wertheim) (04/07/88)
Re: "schools probably teach TOO much programming... That type of education really belongs in college." I even wonder about that. At CMU, a few years ago they instituted a basic computing requirement that requires everyone -- including engineers, architects, creative writing majors, drama majors, etc. -- to take one semester of either Pascal programming or Lisp programming. Now I can see how an architect can benefit from a good drawing program and how a writing major could benefit from a good word-processor, but do these people need to learn how to program? Michael Wertheim Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA Arpa: mw22@andrew.cmu.edu Bitnet: mw22%andrew@cmccvb
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60164000) (04/07/88)
In article <8652@reed.UUCP> kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) writes: >And if you ask me why I am a "physic" major instead of a CS major, I will >tell you what I tell everyone. Computers are tools, not and end unto >themselves. And I want them to help me build things. Preferable things >that fly. Computing is a hobby. It just happens to be a hobby that pays >well. > >PS I feel sorry for some CS majors. They keep getting told massive starting >saleries for CS majors, yet get out there and realize they don't have enough >practicle experience to make that starting salery. What are your views on CE majors? The same as your views on CS (CIS is how I always hear it)? The above quotation is not to make it seem that I want only your views on the monetary aspects of CE, that was just a short section of your post that I decided to include for reference. Yes, as you probably guessed, I am a CE major. -tuu
mturner@convex.UUCP (04/07/88)
My first college cs class in 83 had 1058 students. Strange how after four
years only 62 folks graduated with me.
My almamater, The University of Texas, seems to take care of weeding out
most/all of the "30k a year will buy alot of beer" less than serious folks.
I started learning about computers/languages with a boring basic class in
high school but it did get me interested enough to make computers a
large part of my life.
set soapbox = on
So I, feel education is for the most part what you make of it.
Education is for discovering that which you find enjoying and challenging.
unset soapbox :-)
---Mike Turner {uucp:ihnp4!convex!mturner}
"imagination is more important than knowledge"--A. Einstein
"ignorance is more important than knowledge"-Ron Reagan :-)buyse@convex.UUCP (04/07/88)
I dunno about how effective that weeding out all of the "$30K a year will
buy a lot of beer" people from U.T. actually was.
After all, *I* graduated.
-Russell Buyse.
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!buyse
Hook 'em Horns!
(p.s.) Mike, you rat, I'll get you for stealing that R.R. quote from me!kolding@ji.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Koldinger) (04/08/88)
>What are your views on CE majors? The same as your views on CS (CIS is >how I always hear it)? Please do not confuse Computer Science with Computer Information Sciences. CIS is a branch of the old Management Information Sciences majors. It is designed to teach people how to manage (cough, cough) computer systems for corporate use. CS is, at least at most of the schools I've seen, the study of the science and design of computers. CE (I assume you mean Computer Engineering instead of Civil Engineering) is usually taught as a subfield of Computer Science or Electrical Engineering. _ /| Eric \`o_O' kolding@ji.berkeley.edu ( ) "Gag Ack Barf" {....}!ucbvax!ji!kolding U
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60164000) (04/08/88)
kolding@ji.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Eric Koldinger) wrote: > Please do not confuse Computer Science with Computer Information Sciences. > CIS is a branch of the old Management Information Sciences majors. It is > designed to teach people how to manage (cough, cough) computer systems for > corporate use. CS is, at least at most of the schools I've seen, the study > of the science and design of computers. > CE (I assume you mean Computer Engineering instead of Civil Engineering) > is usually taught as a subfield of Computer Science or Electrical > Engineering. Ok. I -was- confusing the two, thinking they were the exact thing. My confusion was made larger because I know someone who is a CS major at Berkeley, and he is taking basically the same course schedule as I am. As I said previously, I'm a CE major. You said that CE (comp engineering) is taught as a "subfield of Computer Science...". Here we only have CIS and CE. It doesn't seem that our CE is any less stringent here, at UCSC, than Berkeley's. -tuu
LEM0333@RITVAX.BITNET (04/08/88)
Michael Alan Wertheim <mw22+@andrew.cmu.EDU> writes: > Now I can see how an architect can benefit from a good drawing program and how > a writing major could benefit from a good word-processor, but do these people > need to learn how to program? Yes, in a way, they do. Not that it's needed, but it certainly helps. It really has nothing to do with computer literacy, because if that were the case schools would be teaching applications, not programming. The reason they teach high-level programming (when was the last time assembly was a requirement) is because of the logic involved in designing such a program. 'Good' programmin g skills have nothing to do with tricky code, they have to do with how one can visualize a problem and solve it. Modular languages such as Pascal help people learn how to do just that inn an organised manner, which solves more than just programming problems. Lee E. Manevitch __________________________________________________________________________ | ############# | | # # LEM0333@RITVAX | | # ######### # | | # # # # LEM0333%ritvax.bitnet@cornellc.ccs.cornell.edu | | # # ##### # # | | # # # # # # Lee Manevitch | | # # # # # # CPU#958 | | # # ## 25 Andrews Memorial Dr. | | # # R.I.T. Rochester, NY 14623 | | # #### | | # Disclaimer: "Just because I study here doesn't mean | | ###### I like it..." | |________________________________________________________________________|
scott@geowhiz.UUCP (Scott Kempf) (04/09/88)
In article <64800036@convex> buyse@convex.UUCP writes: > >I hope that CS is finally past the recent trend where every "no-major" >undergraduate decided to major in CS because it was "the wave of the >future". > CS is past that now. The wave chasers are now dropping out of Engineering. > >-Russell Buyse. > >UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!buyse Scott _______________________________________________________________________________ Scott Kempf Blue itself teaches us blue. -Bill Ranson MAIL: 1302 Rutledge St., Madison, WI 53703 PHONE: (608) 255-6205 (home) UUCP: {seismo, topaz, harvard, ihnp4}!uwvax!geowhiz!scott ARPA: geowhiz!scott@spool.wisc.edu PHONE: (608) 262-6154 (work) BITNET: scott%geowhiz.uucp%spool.wisc.edu@wiscvm.bitnet
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.COM (Todd South) (04/09/88)
On the subject of having others required to take some programming in schools, this could also be associated with some schools requirements that students take at least on language class, or having students take certain humanities, even though they will never have practical applications for that person. If a person has some basic knowledge on a subject then they will not be abrasive when working or conversing in the subject at a later point in life. Apples in the lower grades really help on this point. I know a number of managers that cring at the thought of preparing large point papers that require something more complicated than Wordstar or Peachtext. Let's hope that starting young with today's generation will help tomorrow's be more at home with a larger scope of communication tools. :-----------------------------------------------------------------------: | Todd South : Ewa Beach, HI ||| Pacific Proline: (808) 499-2831 2400bd | | Uucp: {nosc, ihnp4, cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun!ihnp4} nnnn | | ...!crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth HHHH n| | ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL UUUU//| | INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM Hi Ma! \ / | :-----------------------------------------------------------------------:
buyse@convex.UUCP (04/12/88)
/* Written 2:38 pm Apr 8, 1988 by scott@geowhiz.Sun.COM in convex:comp.sys.apple */ >>I hope that CS is finally past the recent trend where every "no-major" >>undergraduate decided to major in CS because it was "the wave of the >>future". >> >>-Russell Buyse. > >CS is past that now. The wave chasers are now dropping out of Engineering. > > Scott /* End of text from convex:comp.sys.apple */ I sure hope they are dropping out. Now the rest of us can get in some decent surfing :-). -Russell Buyse. UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!buyse