gregp@pro-carolina.cts.COM (Greg Prevost) (09/03/88)
>IIgs+ Delayed. >Apple did not introduce an accelerator for the Mac SE at the >recently concluded Mac World as had been rumored, although >several third party vendors have announced such products. >Apparently, Apple management decided to take President >Sculley's commitment to major customers ("no new CPU's in >1988") very literally. Sources inside Apple insist that an >accelerated Apple IIgs (the widely rumored gs+) will not be >shipped until some time after the performance of the entire >Macintosh line is improved. >- A Knowlegeable (Anonymous) Source (Developer) How long are we (the lowly ][ users) going to have to put up with this (put appropriate expletitive here) from Big Red? I am begining to hate the Mac as much as the IBM! We built this company to where it is now and they steadfastly continue to ignore us and what WE want. We can't get a decent upgrade of a slow computer till they do that for the Macs first. I remember what I thought when I first saw the GS. Its nice, its pretty, sounds pretty good (but my Alpine sounds better) but was slow as a turtle. That is why I haven't bought one, and that is why I won't buy one until I feel it is a worthwhile purchase. And at this rate my next computer probably will not be a product made by Apple since I don't like Macs and I can get a much better game machine with a Amiga or a ST (that is all Big Red seems to think we should use the ][s for anymore) and a lot cheaper. And most of the ][ people I know feel the same way. All Apple continues to do is lose its devoted user base. I am still devoted to my ][e enhanced but eventually decent software will stop coming out for it and I will make a change and unless Apple makes a change in its policy of screw the ][ it will not be to an Apple product. Flame off UUCP: [ ihnp4 sdcsvax nosc ] !crash!pro-carolina!gregp Never forget ARPA: crash!pro-carolina!gregp@nosc.mil your towel! INET: gregp@pro-carolina.cts.com Ford Prefect UUCP: [ ihnp4 sdcsvax nosc ] !crash!pro-carolina!gregp Never forget ARPA: crash!pro-carolina!gregp@nosc.mil your towel! INET: gregp@pro-carolina.cts.com Ford Prefect
gwyn@smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) (09/04/88)
In article <8809030036.AA17658@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-carolina!gregp@nosc.mil writes: >All Apple continues to do is lose its devoted user base. Exactly right. Despite lots of reassurances about how Apple is putting as much development into the Apple II family as into the Mac, there sure isn't a lot of evidence for that. Almost every interesting new Apple peripheral is supported for the Mac for a year or more before the Apple II receives support (if ever). I don't know why Apple seems to think the Apple II line could be a competitive threat for the Mac. If I ever switch to another family, it sure won't be to the Mac, particularly now that Apple has gotten me pissed off at the way they treat their Apple II customers. On the other hand, if they come out with significant improvements in the Apple II line I am likely to buy those products, in order to propagate my large existing investment (especially in software). If they're really delaying Apple II enhancements for marketing reasons, then they're being pretty stupid. I needed them yesterday and may have to drop Apple altogether if they don't rapidly improve the Apple II line. They're not going to sell me a Mac in any case.
news@swan.ulowell.edu (News manager) (09/05/88)
From: sbrodsky@hawk.ulowell.edu (Scott Brodsky) Path: hawk!sbrodsky In article <8809030036.AA17658@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-carolina!gregp@nosc.mil writes: >the same way. All Apple continues to do is lose its devoted user base. I am >still devoted to my ][e enhanced but eventually decent software will stop >coming out for it and I will make a change and unless Apple makes a change in >its policy of screw the ][ it will not be to an Apple product. > I coudn't agree more with the above statement. They lost me thats for sure. I had a //+ for about 3 years, wanted a //GS real badly. When the GS came out I went all the way and purchased it, whole setup, extra memory and all. Well, I'm not longer an Apple fan (then why are you reading this newsgroup? well, the other newsgroups are kinda dull right now). I can remember times when booting up software how I would have to run out to the kitchen to get a bite to eat, if I was lucky, when I came back the software would be ready. "7th INNING STRETCH". I got real sick of that. I long for the days of booting up software on my //+ and have Dos 3.3 up and running in only a few seconds, even prodos was up and running real quickly. I was fairly good at assembly on the //+'s 6502 instruction set, and I spent numerous hours playing with Dos 3.3, modifying it trying to make protection schemes, that was fun. Plus I knew all the rom routines off the top of my head. The only thing I remember today is call -151. Unfortunately I couldn't do all this neat stuff with the GS. I tried to get into 'Assembly' but it seemed just to difficult, I dunno, maybe it was me, maybe it was the lack of documentation availble on the 65816 at the time. Does anyone out there fully understand the graphics modes? how to use them? I now have an 80286, 10mhz, it is FAST! I don't have the graphics or the sound or the games that I did with the //+ and //GS. The only thing I really use it for is to login to school and work online. Not much time for games if I wanted to. I would never go back to Apple, I would prefer to move to another such as Amiga if I ever wanted to go back to a 'home' computer. *My* feelings are that Apple has management problems. Apple was at *first* into making 'home computers', not business machines, as we all know what happened to the Apple ///. The Apple //+ //e and //c markets were strong and everything was going great, until the first MAC came out. Now it seems that all that Apple cares about is its Desktop Publishing Business Machines. Apple *has* the technology to build a 'real powerful home computer' that could probably blow the ST and Amiga both away. Just look at the power in the MAC II. So what about the // line? The // line is what MADE APPLE Co. How can they ignore the // line so badly? I just cannot figure out how. Its like Dominoes concentrating on Subs rather than pizzas. Or Chinese food restaraunts selling cheeseburgers. IBM tried to get into the 'home' market once. Obviously they failed, the PCjr. Can you just imagine if they put more attention into their 'home' computer and not enough attention to their XT and AT line at the time? What is wrong with Apple? Scott Brodsky, University of Lowell CS Dept., sbrodsky@hawk.ulowell.edu
dharvey@wsccs.UUCP (David Harvey) (09/14/88)
In article <8809030036.AA17658@crash.cts.com>, gregp@pro-carolina.cts.COM (Greg Prevost) writes: > > How long are we (the lowly ][ users) going to have to put up with this (put > appropriate expletitive here) from Big Red? I am begining to hate the Mac as > much as the IBM! We built this company to where it is now and they > steadfastly continue to ignore us and what WE want. We can't get a decent > upgrade of a slow computer till they do that for the Macs first. I remember > what I thought when I first saw the GS. Its nice, its pretty, sounds pretty > good (but my Alpine sounds better) but was slow as a turtle. That is why I > haven't bought one, and that is why I won't buy one until I feel it is a > worthwhile purchase. And at this rate my next computer probably will not be a > product made by Apple since I don't like Macs and I can get a much better game > machine with a Amiga or a ST (that is all Big Red seems to think we should use > the ][s for anymore) and a lot cheaper. And most of the ][ people I know feel > the same way. All Apple continues to do is lose its devoted user base. I am > still devoted to my ][e enhanced but eventually decent software will stop > coming out for it and I will make a change and unless Apple makes a change in > its policy of screw the ][ it will not be to an Apple product. BIG FLAME ON! Apple Co. devoted user base is a majority of Macintosh machines by a long shot. What do you expect them to do? Build their own special purpose CPU that runs 8/16 bit software like a special purpose 32/32 bit (80386 Intel or 68030 Motorola) machine? I have news for you, it can't be done! 8 bits is 8 bits is....... You can only shove so much through a CPU like a 6502 (et al) that has a 16 bit instruction set. And since you insist on running this 8/16 bit software there is very little that Apple or anyone else can do about it. Also be aware that the Amiga has its own complement of extra processors to speed things up considerably, even to the point that the keyboard has the equivalent of the Apple IIe's CPU in it. And that is just the keyboard! Sure, the GS has its problems but people like you are expecting too much from old outmoded technology! It is exasperating. And as to Apple's support for Apple II owners go, it is probably the best they can do to give you the GS. Hells bells, don't expect them to work miracles! Lest you think I am connected with Apple Co. in any way I must add that my present machine is an Amiga 1000, and yes I wasn't all that impressed with the 2000. But I believe that Apple has done a good job of engineering some very sound products. The problem is that people like you want to live in the past! If you don't like the Macintosh (I like it and the II for that matter) then by all means stop your bitchin. Just plunk your cash down on the machine of your choice. I did and so can you! But by all means stop all of this loyalty to a company BS! If the company doesn't deliver what you want, shop elsewhere, and don't be surprised to find that you inherit a whole raft of other problems. An example would be Commodore not polling their A1000 owners to discover the vast majority want a machine with a 6802(3)0, more colors, better resolution without interlace mode. So what do they produce? The same machine with slots for IBM processors! Egads! We have to turn to other vendors to give us these goodies that we REALLY wanted. Do you get the picture now? Companies listen to only one thing, cold hard cash! So let your money do the talking, the company is bound to listen then. flame off dharvey@wsccs
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.COM (System Administrator) (09/18/88)
In Article: <646@wsccs.UUCP> dharvey@wsccs (David Harvey) Writes: > In article <8809030036.AA17658@crash.cts.com>, gregp@pro-carolina.cts.COM > (Greg Prevost) writes: >> >>How long are we (the lowly ][ users) going to have to put up with this (put >>appropriate expletitive here) from Big Red? I am begining to hate the Mac as >>much as the IBM! We built this company to where it is now and they >>steadfastly continue to ignore us and what WE want. We can't get a decent >>upgrade of a slow computer till they do that for the Macs first. I remember >>what I thought when I first saw the GS. Its nice, its pretty, sounds pretty >>good (but my Alpine sounds better) but was slow as a turtle. That is why I >>haven't bought one, and that is why I won't buy one until I feel it is a >>worthwhile purchase. And at this rate my next computer probably will not be a >>product made by Apple since I don't like Macs and I can get a much better game >>machine with a Amiga or a ST (that is all Big Red seems to think we should use >>the ][s for anymore) and a lot cheaper. And most of the ][ people I know feel >>the same way. All Apple continues to do is lose its devoted user base. I am >>still devoted to my ][e enhanced but eventually decent software will stop >>coming out for it and I will make a change and unless Apple makes a change in >>its policy of screw the ][ it will not be to an Apple product. >BIG FLAME ON! >Apple Co. devoted user base is a majority of Macintosh machines by a >long shot. What do you expect them to do? Build their own special Man you must be living on another planet to believe that! >purpose CPU that runs 8/16 bit software like a special purpose 32/32 >bit (80386 Intel or 68030 Motorola) machine? I have news for you, it >can't be done! 8 bits is 8 bits is....... You can only shove so much >through a CPU like a 6502 (et al) that has a 16 bit instruction set. >And since you insist on running this 8/16 bit software there is very >little that Apple or anyone else can do about it. Also be aware that This is wrong. You obviously are not even familiar with the design of the present //gs to have enough of an inkling of insight into what the real problems are. Don;t start passing around this crap about outmoded technology. The only thing holding back the //gs as an all- around (uses) machine is the fact that Apple decided to limit its conception to a minimum of the possibilities that are easily possible within the current LOW-COST technological realm. The 6502, IMHO, is a major mainstay in thoroughput devices. But if the clockspeed is going at 1 or 2.8mhz on ANY machine it is going to be slow. You, unfortunately, are muddling the waters with these espousals of insight into technology and it really is frustrating to hear someone talk about something they have no apparent background in. If I am wrong then tell me, what is a 65c832, my friend? >the Amiga has its own complement of extra processors to speed things >up considerably, even to the point that the keyboard has the equivalent >of the Apple IIe's CPU in it. And that is just the keyboard! Note my bovers, you are saying the same damn thing that we are! This is what we want changed! >Sure, the GS has its problems but people like you are expecting too much >from old outmoded technology! It is exasperating. And as to Apple's >support for Apple II owners go, it is probably the best they can do to >give you the GS. Hells bells, don't expect them to work miracles! Lest >you think I am connected with Apple Co. in any way I must add that my >present machine is an Amiga 1000, and yes I wasn't all that impressed >with the 2000. But I believe that Apple has done a good job of >engineering some very sound products. The problem is that people like >you want to live in the past! If you don't like the Macintosh (I like >it and the II for that matter) then by all means stop your bitchin. >Just plunk your cash down on the machine of your choice. I did and so >can you! But by all means stop all of this loyalty to a company BS! I can see that you just basically don't understand where a lot of us are coming from. Some people have the Greatful Dead, some people have Star Trek, and there are a number of other relationships that have been created and sustained throughout the years as a result of uncommon friendships. The Apple ][, at least to some of us, is just this. It is a machine and an ideal at the same time. You can know the machine but the ideal is something that you grow with (grow up with in a number of cases) and allow to flower into a feeling of ardor. The same ideals that Woz brouught to the machine are still in the heart of most Apple enthusiasts I know, because they tend to be the only ones that are sticking to the machine and actively promoting it. I personally have convinced over 100+ people (throughout the past) to buy Apple ][ computers instead of something else. One of the main points my pitch to friends is the fact that the Apple ][ family has been the focus of death a number of times, only to have the (apparent) public response sway whoever controls such things to keep the machine, and allow it to florish. Say what you want, but with some really simple and easily implemented strokes of the design pen, Apple could take the ][ family and wipe out a large portion of the business, home, and educational markets to the point where there would be little or no other competition in other low-end systems. Hey! I like the Mac ][, but anything that costs 10 grand for a starting system (I'll back that up if anyone feels like flaming) is just not going to take over American markets in this day and age. >If the company doesn't deliver what you want, shop elsewhere, and don't >be surprised to find that you inherit a whole raft of other problems. >An example would be Commodore not polling their A1000 owners to discover >the vast majority want a machine with a 6802(3)0, more colors, better >resolution without interlace mode. So what do they produce? The same >machine with slots for IBM processors! Egads! We have to turn to >other vendors to give us these goodies that we REALLY wanted. Do you >get the picture now? Companies listen to only one thing, cold hard >cash! So let your money do the talking, the company is bound to >listen then. >flame off Last year (1987) Apple ][ sales grossed more than ONE BILLION dollars. There are countries that don;t make that much money!!! And yet the staff of Apple ][ R&D is minimal, to say the least. Some of the folks at Apple, though, are really involved and dedicated to what they are involved in. To note, Keith Rollins (don't blush Keith) has really been actively promoting and helping a number of us lately with some of the problems involved with the //gs programming, and other tidbits as well. His simple involvement is amazing when you consider that to get questions answered (before) one usually had to mail letters that would take years to arrive and probably going in file 86 if noone was in a good mood that day. I just hope that Apple does "wake up" and realize the losses in potential profits that are hitting them everyday. For some reason :-< they have now decided to increase prices on equipment that has been selling at inflated prices for years. The irony of it all amazes me. >dharvey@wsccs Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1