V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET (09/20/88)
According to press releases GS/OS now supports disk formats other
than ProDOS. Okay, which of the following (if any) does it support
DOS 3.3, Pascal, Mac HS
[D
[D
[Df
[D
[D
[D
[D
FS, or MS-DOS. We know it supports some obscure ISO format.
Given that Apple is shipping a utility that (paraphrazing) creatstes
partitions of differtrent OSs on hard disks, will it work with non-Apple
drives? (CMSA260s for instance) And given that, will partitions greater
than 32 megabytes be supported? Will ProDOS 8 applications be able to
read them or just "AppleShare Aware" programs?
Whlhile I'm at it in what ways will system 4.0 increase program speed?
Is it merely disk access or have the Tools been revamped again?
Does it support disk caching? How fast is the new Finder's interface
and why is it faster? Is ProDOS as a name dead? GS/OS is shorter but
has an annoying and unsightly slash in it. Reminds me of OS/2. Uggh!
-markkeith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (09/21/88)
In article <8809191639.aa00747@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET writes: > > According to press releases GS/OS now supports disk formats other >than ProDOS. Okay, which of the following (if any) does it support >DOS 3.3, Pascal, Mac HS >FS, or MS-DOS. We know it supports some obscure ISO format. GS/OS ships supporting the ProDOS and High Sierra (ISO-9660 CD-ROM) formats. It also supports character devices with a Console FST that handles screen output and keyboard input. > Given that Apple is shipping a utility that (paraphrazing) creatstes >partitions of differtrent OSs on hard disks, will it work with non-Apple >drives? (CMSA260s for instance) And given that, will partitions greater >than 32 megabytes be supported? Will ProDOS 8 applications be able to >read them or just "AppleShare Aware" programs? Volumes of greater than 32Meg ARE supported by GS/OS, per se, but NOT by the ProDOS FST that most people will be using. This is due to limitations of the ProDOS system since it was created. However, the limit on file and volume sizes imposed by GS/OS is something like 4 GBytes!!! This means that you can also access filing systems like High Sierra and HFS that can create volumes and files of this size. > Whlhile I'm at it in what ways will system 4.0 increase program speed? >Is it merely disk access or have the Tools been revamped again? >Does it support disk caching? How fast is the new Finder's interface >and why is it faster? Is ProDOS as a name dead? GS/OS is shorter but >has an annoying and unsightly slash in it. Reminds me of OS/2. Uggh! GS/OS improves only file access. Booting is faster, loading and running of files is faster, loading of tools and fonts are faster, loading of DAs is faster, etc. Also, I believe that the Console driver is faster than the Text Tools, so if you write your programs to use that, text display should also be faster. Disk caching is supported. A disk's directory is ALWAYS cached, while other blocks are stored in a cache of variable and settable size (there is a DA that will let you determine this). > > -mark Keith Rollin amdahl\ Developer Technical Support pyramid!sun !apple!keith Apple Computer decwrl/ "You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!"
bsherm@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Bob Sherman) (09/21/88)
in article <8809191639.aa00747@SMOKE.BRL.MIL>, V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET says: > > regarding all of your questions about GS-OS, I would suggest the 370+page GS-OS ref. manual now available in beta draft from APDA..It will answer most of your questions, and the tech notes that come with the 4.0 package should answer your questions about the tool changes, bug fixes etc.. -- Internet -- bsherm%umbio@umigw.miami.edu UUCP -- {uunet!gould}!umbio!bsherm Miami's Big Apple 305-948-8000 1200 baud 24 hours 8 years online
V112PDL5@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (09/23/88)
>As for Mac disk support, it doesn't currently transparently read Mac disks, but >the potential is certainly there. GS/OS performs ALL device reads through >FSTs (File System Translators) and RAM based device drivers. A 3.5" drive >device driver is already included with GS/OS, but there is no HFS FST. The >FSTs currently supplied are ProDOS, High Sierra, and Console - an FST for >character I/O to the screen and from the keyboard. What operations require the 3.5" driver or drivers in general. Just operations other than with the ProDOS file system? Will hard disks require new drivers? How are drivers made? The words "3.5" device driver" coming from Apple makes me nervous as an owner of a non-Apple hard drive. Remember Apple's printer driver for the Mac was so complex that (at first) one printer manufacturer switched to selling Imagewriter compatibles to avoid the trouble of writing their own drivers. Look at these quotes from Volume 10, Issue 38 of InfoWorld about GS/OS: "[GS/OS comes]...with an application model that increases its similarity to the Mac." and "The new OS lets files have data and resource forks, the same structure used in Mac applications." At first this seemed that Apple would phaze out ProDOS in favor of Mac HFS making massive changes to APW in the process. >Volumes of greater than 32Meg ARE supported by GS/OS, per se, but NOT by the >ProDOS FST that most people will be using. This is due to limitations of the >ProDOS system since it was created. However, the limit on file and volume >sizes imposed by GS/OS is something like 4 GBytes!!! This means that you can >also access filing systems like High Sierra and HFS that can create volumes and >files of this size. Ah, I believe I understand. But is it possible for a person to format an Apple SC HD 40 or 80 (or perchance a CMS 60 megabyte HD) as one single volume under a "non-ProDOS 4 GB" FST. In effect are non-Apple HD owners on their own waiting for the independent party to produce a driver for those formats? Actually, I'm not as concerned for >32 mb volumes as I am about the future. Will future versions of GS/OS require a Mac HFS format with "a Mac-like programming model" and "data and resource forks" leaving non-Apple HD owners out in the cold? Probably not, right Keith? How do these FSTs change filenames? Will they only support the least common denominator? By the bye, our local (North East) Apple dealer trainer (whatever his real title is) mentioned that initially Apple had developed software enabling GSs to serve as File Servers over AppleShare. But it was dumped citing abysmal performance. With the faster GS/OS may this decion be revised? Of course at the same time he stated High Sierra was a "error-correcting protocol for CDs" and steadfastly refused to believe me that the Apple IIgs operates at 2.5/2.8 Mhz rather than his stated "2.0". He trains dealers right? Has anyone been having any trouble running Appleworks from v3.2 or 4.0? p.s. Excuse me for the errors in prior messages. I hade a misunderstanding with my Dataterm 550. >Keith Rollin amdahl\ >Developer Technical Support pyramid!sun !apple!keith >Apple Computer decwrl/ >"You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!" - mark cromwell
V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET (09/25/88)
Quotes by Keith Rollin: >As for Mac disk support, it doesn't currently transparently read Mac disks, but >the potential is certainly there. GS/OS performs ALL device reads through >FSTs (File System Translators) and RAM based device drivers. A 3.5" drive >device driver is already included with GS/OS, but there is no HFS FST. The >FSTs currently supplied are ProDOS, High Sierra, and Console - an FST for >character I/O to the screen and from the keyboard. The words "3.5" device driver" coming from Apple makes me nervous as an owner of a non-Apple hard drive. Remember Apple's printer driver for the Mac was so complex that (at first) one printer manufacturer switched to selling Imagewriter compatibles to avoid the trouble of writing their own drivers. In a correction the CMS hard disks CAN be used with an Apple SCSI controller. In fact that's the only way it can be used with System 4's partitioning software. Apparently you'll either have to: a) buy an Apple SCSI card b) wait for Apple to support the CMS SCSI card c) wait for CMS to write a driver I got this information indirectly (via Joe Craparotta) from the horse's mouth: CMS. Apparently you can create multiple 32 megabyte volumes o' ProDOS. Actually I thought it was quite stupid of Apple to allow one to buy a 40 Mb HD and waste the upper 8. Of course since CMS already allows partitioning up to a 60 Mb HD. So who cares unless you want to partion your drive in one of the other formats or like very, very big HDs. Look at these quotes from Volume 10, Issue 38 of InfoWorld about GS/OS: "[GS/OS comes]...with an application model that increases its similarity to the Mac." and "The new OS lets files have data and resource forks, the same structure used in Mac applications." At first this seemed that Apple would phaze out ProDOS in favor of Mac HFS (something I would like to see) making massive changes to APW in the process. But GS/OS doesn't even support HFS. I have heard nothing of this since I've read it though. Hmmmm.... Keith do you know something I don't? >Volumes of greater than 32Meg ARE supported by GS/OS, per se, but NOT by the >ProDOS FST that most people will be using. This is due to limitations of the >ProDOS system since it was created. However, the limit on file and volume >sizes imposed by GS/OS is something like 4 GBytes!!! This means that you can >also access filing systems like High Sierra and HFS that can create volumes and >files of this size. By the bye, our local (North East) Apple dealer trainer (whatever his real title is) mentioned that initially Apple had developed software enabling GSs to serve as File Servers over AppleShare, but it was dumped citing abysmal performance. With the faster GS/OS may this decision be revised? It kind of hurts one's pride. Of course at the same time he stated High Sierra was a "error-correcting protocol for CDs" and refused to believe the GS runs at 2.5/2.8 Mhz rather than the 2.0 Mhz he stated in his presentation. I know that it may not be such a big thing not to know the speed of one's company's machine but to spread the wrong information? I find it quite ironic that Apple chose to give the GS the capablity to read the CD-ROM ISO standared before they gave it to the Mac. The Mac could not read ISO when the CD-ROM first came out. Of course System 6.0, 6.1, and 6.2 have came out since, so maybe that's not true. But if it is that would mean we got Applelink *AND* ISO before the Mac. I bet all those Mac owners are green with envy. Hey Keith! Will HFS be supported in GS OS/2? :-) >Keith Rollin amdahl\ >Developer Technical Support pyramid!sun !apple!keith >Apple Computer decwrl/ >"You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!" - mark cromwell
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (09/27/88)
In article <8809250103.aa23938@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET writes: >Quotes by Keith Rollin: >>As for Mac disk support, it doesn't currently transparently read Mac disks, but >>the potential is certainly there. GS/OS performs ALL device reads through >>FSTs (File System Translators) and RAM based device drivers. A 3.5" drive >>device driver is already included with GS/OS, but there is no HFS FST. The >>FSTs currently supplied are ProDOS, High Sierra, and Console - an FST for >>character I/O to the screen and from the keyboard. > > The words "3.5" device driver" coming from Apple makes me nervous >as an owner of a non-Apple hard drive. Remember Apple's printer driver for >the Mac was so complex that (at first) one printer manufacturer switched to >selling Imagewriter compatibles to avoid the trouble of writing their own >drivers. I think it's kind of unfair to compare the two types of drivers here. First of all, we're talking Macs and Apples. Second, we're talking printers and disk devices. Third, the method of writing device drivers is fully documented and supported by Developer Technical support, something that wasn't done with Mac Printer drivers. Finally, support is put into GS/OS to use the drivers supplied in ROM on the devices peripheral card. > >Apparently you can create multiple 32 megabyte volumes o' ProDOS. Actually I >thought it was quite stupid of Apple to allow one to buy a 40 Mb HD and waste >the upper 8. Of course since CMS already allows partitioning up to a 60 Mb HD. >So who cares unless you want to partion your drive in one of the other >formats or like very, very big HDs. But Apple has been shipping a utilityity that will allow you to partition your drive. Also, the 20SC, 40SC, and 80SC drives are compatible with Macintoshes which can use the capacity already. That's why we came out with them. > > Look at these quotes from Volume 10, Issue 38 of InfoWorld about GS/OS: >"[GS/OS comes]...with an application model that increases its similarity to >the Mac." and "The new OS lets files have data and resource forks, the >same structure used in Mac applications." At first this seemed that Apple >would phaze out ProDOS in favor of Mac HFS (something I would like to see) >making massive changes to APW in the process. But GS/OS doesn't even support >HFS. I have heard nothing of this since I've read it though. Hmmmm.... Keith >do you know something I don't? Don't confuse HFS (an operating system) with a disk format that supports data and resource forks. Both GS/OS and HFS support those. There is no need for HFS on the GS just to use them. By the way, as a personal opinion, I prefer GS/OS over HFS. I program on the GS and Macintosh, and have used both extensively. I think that GS/OS has a cleaner architecture with regard to system calls, device drivers, and File System Translators; it's simply easier to use! > > > Hey Keith! Will HFS be supported in GS OS/2? :-) > I don't know -- we aren't writing the operating system for the IBM PC GS/2 :-) > > - mark cromwell Keith Rollin amdahl\ Developer Technical Support pyramid!sun !apple!keith Apple Computer decwrl/ "You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!"
prw@meccsd.MECC.MN.ORG (Paul R. Wenker) (09/27/88)
In article <8809250103.aa23938@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET writes: >Quotes by Keith Rollin: >>As for Mac disk support, it doesn't currently transparently read Mac disks, but >>the potential is certainly there. GS/OS performs ALL device reads through >>FSTs (File System Translators) and RAM based device drivers. A 3.5" drive >>device driver is already included with GS/OS, but there is no HFS FST. The >>FSTs currently supplied are ProDOS, High Sierra, and Console - an FST for >>character I/O to the screen and from the keyboard. > > The words "3.5" device driver" coming from Apple makes me nervous >as an owner of a non-Apple hard drive. Remember Apple's printer driver for >the Mac was so complex that (at first) one printer manufacturer switched to >selling Imagewriter compatibles to avoid the trouble of writing their own >drivers. The format of GS/OS device drivers (and printer/port drivers for that matter) is relatively simple and well documented. There really is no comparison to the Mac. Unfortunatly, the format of FSTs is not documented. However, Apple has said that they are planning to do HFS and Appletalk FSTs in the future. > Look at these quotes from Volume 10, Issue 38 of InfoWorld about GS/OS: >"[GS/OS comes]...with an application model that increases its similarity to >the Mac." and "The new OS lets files have data and resource forks, the >same structure used in Mac applications." At first this seemed that Apple >would phaze out ProDOS in favor of Mac HFS (something I would like to see) >making massive changes to APW in the process. But GS/OS doesn't even support >HFS. I have heard nothing of this since I've read it though. Hmmmm.... Keith >do you know something I don't? Just because GS/OS allows calls that support data and resource forks doesn't mean that every FST has to support them. The beauty of GS/OS is that it is flexible enough to support all sorts of operating systems. There is no need to phaze out ProDOS in favor of <favorite OS>, because with GS/OS you can have both OS's coexisting transparently. > By the bye, our local (North East) Apple dealer trainer (whatever his real >title is) mentioned that initially Apple had developed software enabling GSs >to serve as File Servers over AppleShare, but it was dumped citing abysmal >performance. With the faster GS/OS may this decision be revised? It kind of >hurts one's pride. Having 10-20 users doing AppleShare I/O will bring a Mac II server to it's knees. Since 30 user computer labs are quite common in schools (which is primarily where AppleShare for the II is targeted), there is good reason why Apple recommends a Mac II as a server. -Paul Wenker prw@meccsd.MECC.MN.ORG -MECC, Technical Services
STEIN@UCONNVM.BITNET (Alan Stein) (09/29/88)
>By the way, as a personal opinion, I prefer GS/OS over HFS. I program on the GS >and Macintosh, and have used both extensively. I think that GS/OS has a cleaner >architecture with regard to system calls, device drivers, and File System >Translators; it's simply easier to use! >> >> I tend to agree, for now, although that will probably change when the Mac gets its totally new OS. It's certainly easier to install printers and fonts on a GS than on a Mac. Alan H. Stein Department of Mathematics The University of Connecticut at Waterbury Internet: stein%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu BITNET: STEIN@UCONNVM UUCP: {rutgers psuvax1 ucbvax & in Europe mcvax} !UCONNVM.BITNET!STEIN Compu$erve: 71545,1500 Genie: ah.stein
gwyn@smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) (10/03/88)
In article <8809250103.aa23938@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> V112PDL5@UBVMS.BITNET writes: >But GS/OS doesn't even support HFS. This isn't entirely true. The System Disk Release 4.0 does not include HFS support, true. GS/OS can support it, however, as near as I can determine, once somebody comes up with an appropriate FST. I suspect this is being worked on, but as you pointed out there are many applications that would fail. Time is needed to allow applications to become "FST-aware".