jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") (09/25/88)
Rick, it is very easy to sympathize with the big bureucracy when you are inside it. It is not so easy for those of us outside it who see the company's effects. I will restate, however, by original post. The Apple //c+ is not a joke. The Release of it at this point in time is a joke. a laughable one, reflecting the neglect that Apple Computer Co. has had for the // series. The least Apple could have done was release a 16 bit //c+, if for no other reason than to demonstrate a commitment to Apple's 16-bit future. Otherwise, the move for a new //c was fruitless, as, in the the real market, one can get a powerful PC setup for less than the //c. And the //c is useless to schools, who are interested in //e's because of slots and the simple utility of being able to secure the machine to the desktop. The //c has no means of being protected from theft. And still, the majority of Apple // software, barring the //gs, is on 5.25 disks. And what kind of commitment does Apple demonstrate when they do not offer memory upgrades for the //c+? Can you imagine IBM not offering some means to expand the memory of a member of the PC line? Sure, the XT may be gone, but you can buy memory for it, because you need it. Apple apparently is content to keep the //c+ limited. Apple has never left such necessities as memory up to third parties for the Macintosh. This, to informed, educated users like myself, is a demonstration of Apple's less than enthusiastic view of the Apple //. Apple is pushing the Mac very hard in Universities, even though there really is not an adequate Mac for the job. The Mac // is too expensive, the SE is not satisfying. Many here at CMU would like to see better equipped Macs emerge that could fill the void of inexpensive workstations. Instead, Apple makes a deal with our ignorant Humanities department to sell them Mac // systems that don't have enough memory to run some of the existing software developed here. I wonder whether this is a move that Apple has already pulled on the schools! From what I have been able to observe, Apple has been content to rest on the hold it has had upon the K-12 market since it first seeded the schools with the //+. I can assure you that this will not last forever as techology marches on and the // falls farther behind because some people at Apple are fearful that the // may "compete" with the Mac. Ridiculous. If the // competes with the Mac, than the Mac is certainly not good enough to compete with the other machines in its league I am frustrated by this because it represents wasted potential. Lost opportunity. Apple's PR campaign has made the // into an overpriced Speak and Spell for children, while telling parents that as soon as the child reaches college age, s/he should dump the // and buy a Mac. This need not be the case, if for no other reason than people who di not like Macs will buy IBM clones. The // does not need nearly the same kind of OS support as the Macintosh, just as the PC does not. The // sould thus compete directly with the 8088 machines if it was given enough speed, memory, and storage. But to this day there is no // with a built in hard drive and 640K+ memory standard, a configuration that MS-DOS machines have been comfortable with for years. So, Rick, as the defender of Apple policies on the //, I give ask you this question. Why has the Apple // been ruled out as a menas of competing in the real-world computer market and left to pick up the pieces in the K-12 market, something seeded back in the days of the //+? Whay is there no faith in the // as a small business machine, or low-cost college student's computer? It is capable of this now. a 7.6 MHz GS+ would run rings around an 8088 while still appealing to those who do not like Macintoshes. And even offer the option of experimenting with a Mac-like environment. Why has this resource been ignored? And just out of curiosity, do people in your office at Apple use //'s for day-to-day work, or Mac Capt. Albatross jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu ============ Apparently hoping in vain for a GS+... (*sigh*) disclaimer: These opinions are mine and will remain so until more intelligent or insightful or informed people are kind enough to show me the error of my ways because in the barbecue of life, a mind is a terrible thing to baste.
NETOPRMS@NCSUVM.BITNET (Michael Steele) (09/29/88)
In response to Andrew's speach about Apple Co's lack of commitment toward the
//:
At Applefest John Sculley attempted to explain why Apple did what it did in
the past. His reasoned that Apple was attempting to change their image in
order to break into the business market with the introduction of the Mac.
In order to do this they had to neglect the Apple //. He said that they
knew the Apple // was strong enoough to stand on it's on...without support
from Apple [yeah......suuurrreee]. But now Apple will devote research
money equally to the percentage a machine produces for the company. So
instead of the MAC getting all of the funds the GS will get some too.
There were a lot of Apple people at Applefest, the best showing ever.
Hopefully this means lot's of new improvements for the GS! The design of
GS OS is quite remarkable, it's open-endedness is an amazing concept that
Apple hasn't previously explored. I'm impressed. Hopefully Sculley will
keep this tradition going and keep all of those Steve Job's out of Apple.
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NETOPRMS@NCSUVM.BITNET Michael Steele co-sysop of NCSU Apple Users BBS
10 meg Apple downloads(latest PD software), Tech/Pascal/PCP discussion
919-783-9010 (PC Pursuitable NCRTP) Call today! 919-783-9010bfox%vision@HUB.UCSB.EDU (Brian Fox) (09/29/88)
RE: Uselessness of //c or //c+ to schools. The absence of slots is more of a solution than a problem. Except for networking, most things that a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My experience is that classes have limited time in the computer lab, and don't wish to wait long times for Terrapin Logo to boot up. This is the real reason that many schools bought (are buying) LANS, such as the Corvus network. So I feel that the networking issue is an extremely important one, and not just a back seat issue. The other use that I see Apple put to in schools most often is in the physics, science, or chemistry lab. Teachers purcahse the Apple // specifically because it has slots, and they can attach scientific measuring equipment, A to D converters, etc. Locking the //c is also no problem. Since it has an attached handle, a bicycle lock and cable/chain do it nicely; in fact rather more easily than a //e or //gs. It's a de facto //c security kit (nee Mac s.k.). Placing a bicycle chain through the handle of a //c does not seem as secure as bolting the case of the //e to the desktop, which is what I have seen many (10-15) schools do. Brian Fox
gwyn@smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn ) (10/03/88)
Another serious error on Apple's part is the apparent corporate commitment to the Macintosh desktop as the ideal user interface. I won't give detailed objections to it here, but merely note that many of us who have been involved in high-performance interactive computer graphics for many years now could easily suggest improvements. The single biggest problem is that it is too difficult to provide a totally different interface that better suits a particular application; there is too much "wired-in" dependence on the complexities of the particular desktop model. This applies just as much to the 16-bit environment on the IIGS. Ted Nelson's new edition of "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" is recommended reading for those who have no idea what I'm talking about.
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (10/04/88)
In article <8604@smoke.ARPA> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >Another serious error on Apple's part is the apparent corporate commitment >to the Macintosh desktop as the ideal user interface. I won't give detailed > > > The single biggest problem is that it is too >difficult to provide a totally different interface that better suits a >particular application; Whether one agrees with them or not, it is probably appropriate to keep in mind that the folks at Apple specifically wanted a common user interface when they created the Macintosh. Personally, I feel that that is a good idea. While different applications will inevitably differ somewhat in "look and feel" due to their different functions, it is very nice to have at least a minimum common denominator that ties all Mac programs together. That is one of the big drawbacks to MS-DOS software in my opinion. When I first encountered the GS I had very little trouble using the GS' user interface because it so closely resembled the Mac's. And what trouble I did have could be attributed to *differences* in the two interfaces. Bill