blume@netmbx.UUCP (Heiko Blume) (10/16/88)
i dont want to find a excuse for pirating software ( i really think 'pirating'
is to SELL other peoples programs - i want to talk about COPYING software),
but if i hadn't copied all kind of software i wouldnt even know of many really
good programs. this is especially true for me since i live in germany, it has
always been difficult for me to spend my money on good products, no joke...
(still want to buy smalltalk for the apple, sigh...)
i think, the problem is the need to buy most software in order to find out
if it's really the stuff one needs or likes. this is especially true for word
processors / editors.
that's why i favor the concept of shareware and demo versions of programs that
let you try out the thing.
i think (hope) most people get a good feeling from paying for good stuff, just
like in a good restaurant.
--
Heiko Blume | lazy : blume@netmbx.UUCP
Seekorso 29 | crazy : ...!{pyramid,unido,altger}!tmpmbx!netmbx!blume
1 Berlin 22 | noisy : (+49 30) 365 55 71 | bbs : (+49 30) 365 75 01
WestGermany | telex : 183008 intro d | fax : (+49 30) 882 50 65shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (10/19/88)
blume@netmbx.UUCP (Heiko Blume) writes: > >i dont want to find a excuse for pirating software ( i really think 'pirating' >is to SELL other peoples programs - i want to talk about COPYING software), Unfortunately, "pirating" is considered any act which infringes on the software copyright. If you make a copy of copyrighted software, whether it's made over the phone line, across a network, byte by byte entry from the keyboard, or on-disk, you have made an illegal copy. If you then sell that copy, you may be in for some heavy fines or imprisonment. The copyright law is very strict in some areas and doesn't even allow you to lend a book to a friend. Instead, you have to transfer full ownership to that friend. Which makes one wonder why libraries are legal. But then, that's not what the laws were designed for. >but if i hadn't copied all kind of software i wouldnt even know of many really >good programs. this is especially true for me since i live in germany, it has >always been difficult for me to spend my money on good products, no joke... I know what you mean. If I see a program in a store that looks like it might do the job for me, there's no way I can really tell if it will or won't. I'd like to be able to try it out for a while first. >(still want to buy smalltalk for the apple, sigh...) >i think, the problem is the need to buy most software in order to find out >if it's really the stuff one needs or likes. this is especially true for word >processors / editors. >that's why i favor the concept of shareware and demo versions of programs that >let you try out the thing. >i think (hope) most people get a good feeling from paying for good stuff, just >like in a good restaurant. I agree completely. UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (10/21/88)
In article <186@orbit.UUCP> shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) writes: >................... If you make a copy of copyrighted software, whether it's >made over the phone line, across a network, byte by byte entry from the >keyboard, or on-disk, you have made an illegal copy. ......... > >UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!shawn >INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com Wrong! At least it's wrong if one interprets your words literally. It is not illegal to "make *a* copy of copyrighted software." Empahsis on the word "a". It is legal to make an archival copy to back up your program disk. You are legally liable only if you give or sell that copy to someone else. I am not 100% sure about the legality of selling your original distribution disk. I think even that is technically illegal because one does not have the right to transfer the software license to another party. Don't forget, it's the license that is the heart of the copyright, not the actual diskette itself. Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who is no lawyer, and whose advice, besides being worth what you paid for it, represents no one's opinions but his own. However, if you want to use those opinions as your own, we can negotiate an advantageous licensing agreement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
rkh@mtune.ATT.COM (Robert Halloran) (10/21/88)
In article <1268@cod.NOSC.MIL> rupp@cod.nosc.mil.UUCP (William L. Rupp) writes: >In article <186@orbit.UUCP> shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) writes: > >................... If you make a copy of copyrighted software, whether it's > >made over the phone line, across a network, byte by byte entry from the > >keyboard, or on-disk, you have made an illegal copy. ......... >I am not 100% sure about the legality of selling your original >distribution disk. I think even that is technically illegal because one does >not have the right to transfer the software license to another party. Don't >forget, it's the license that is the heart of the copyright, not the >actual diskette itself. Concur on Mr. Rupp's comment (deleted) about it being COMPLETELY legal to make an archival copy for one's self. This much is supported by copyright law, and I believe has been successfully defended against the usual shrinkwrap agreements. Churning out a dozen copies and giving/selling them to one's friends is a different matter. On selling the originals: I suppose it depends on the vendor; I bought a copy of GBBS for my wife's high school from someone in CA, and L&L in Aurora CO charged us $10. for 'transferring the license', or words to that effect. We were also able to upgrade to the current version by sending in the original disks with an upgrade charge. What someone like Claris, Activision, etc. might be willing to do in a similar situation I have no idea about. Bob Halloran ========================================================================= UUCP: att!mtune!rkh Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM USPS: 17 Lakeland Dr, Port Monmouth NJ 07758 DDD: 201-495-6621 eve ET Disclaimer: If you think AT&T would have ME as a spokesman, you're crazed. Quote: "History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark!" - Dr. Lizardo, "Buckaroo Banzai" -- Bob Halloran ========================================================================= UUCP: att!mtune!rkh Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM Disclaimer: If you think AT&T would have ME as a spokesman, you're crazed.
jib@prism.TMC.COM (10/21/88)
RE: Software and copyrights
There is some misinformation being passed in notes about rights and
copyrights. This is not the right notes group to get into details (and
some rights are not yet well-defined by the courts), but I thought I'd
clarify a few things.
FIRST, A CAVEAT: I am a lawyer (as well as a programmer) and I work for a
legal publisher who also puts out software products. Nonetheless, the
following are my personal (not professional) opinions, and are not to be
considered formal legal advice.
Someone said that you could not loan a book (or by analogy a program).
This is simply not true under the copyright laws. If I own a copyrighted
property, I may sell it, loan it or give it away and NO ONE (meaning the
copyright owner) has any say in the matter.
I may NOT copy it (that's why it's called COPY RIGHT), except as allowed
by the law. Software (but not books and other materials) may be copied
for backup purposes only because the copyright law was modified to allow
it.
As far as transfering software and licensing thereof: The copyright laws
do not deal with whether you own the property or have a license to use
it. That is a matter of contract between you and the seller. If, in
fact, you only have a license to a software package, then you have only
bought the right to use it, not to transfer it to someone else.
BUT, and this is a big BUT, even though most software publishers state
that they are licensing and not selling their software, when it comes to
commericially available (as opposed to custom) software, chances are that
the license is INVALID and you bought it. Why, because the publisher
treats it like a product that is sold, (for example, via retail stores,
distributors, etc with disclaimers of warranties, etc.) and because you
did not really have any opportunity to agree to a licensing arrangement
with the publisher.
Despite what software publishers say, NO court that I am aware of has
enforced such a license, and in fact, in Louisianna, which passed a law
that said opened a shrink wrapped software package meant you agreed to be
bound by the license terms, the courts struck down the law.
ANY FOLLOWUPS SHOULD BE POSTED TO MISC.LEGAL.
The above represents my personal opinions and NOT necessarily those of my
employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Block jib@prism.TMC.COM
{mit-eddie, pyramid, harvard!wjh12, xait, datacube}!mirror!prism!jib
Matthew Bender Inc, 11 Penn Plaza, NY, NY 10001 (212) 216-8018c60c-3aw@tarantula.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (10/22/88)
United States Code title 17, s117
..."It is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program
to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaption of that computer
program provided:
1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step
in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine
and that it is used in no other manner, or
2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and
that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued
possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.
Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this
section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy
from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or
other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may
be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner."
Period.
--
fadden@zen.berkeley.edu [crashed]
c60c-3aw@widow.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden)
(Outgoing E-mail has about a 40% chance of successfully reaching you. Feel
free to respond through the mail, but I probably can't answer.)SCP@cup.portal.com (Sunshine Computer Products) (10/22/88)
YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND IT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT IT IS THE COMPLETE AND EXCLUSIVE STATEMENT OF THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND TIMEWORKS AND ITS DEALER WHICH SUPERSEDES ANY PROPOSAL OR PRIOR AGREEMENT, ORAL OR WRITTEN, AND ANY OTHER COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN YOU AND THE DEALER RELATING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS AGREEMENT. This is, word for word, the agreement Timeworks give you when you buy software from them (Publish It!, at least). No signature required or requested. Where do they get off telling me what I agree to? How can they tell me that I understand something? Once software is opened, most stores won't allow you to return it. You are not given any hint about the existence of this license until after you open the product. How can this possibly be enforcable? Douglas Granzow scp@cup.portal.com
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (10/23/88)
In article <1268@cod.NOSC.MIL> rupp@cod.nosc.mil.UUCP (William L. Rupp) writes: >... it's the license that is the heart of the copyright, not the >actual diskette itself. Licensing comes under "contract law" and has nothing to do with copyright. Many states do not recognize so-called "shrink-wrap licenses", i.e. the attempt to subject you to automatic licensing constraints when you purchase a product off the shelf. However, if you signed a license agreement as a condition of obtaining the software then you are legally bound by the terms of the license.
c60c-3aw@tarantula.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (10/23/88)
In article <10311@cup.portal.com> SCP@cup.portal.com (Sunshine Computer Products) writes: [stuff removed] > >This is, word for word, the agreement Timeworks give you when you buy >software from them (Publish It!, at least). No signature required or >requested. Where do they get off telling me what I agree to? How can >they tell me that I understand something? It's very simple. By opening the software package (shrink wrap) you are agreeing to be bound by any terms listed inside. If the terms say that you have to hand over your first born child, you are legally bound to do so except in states where shrink-wrap licenses are prohibited. We ought to send software companies a letter, incide of which is a statment to the effect that by opening this letter they have agreed to remove all silly license agreements from their packages. Just a thought. >Douglas Granzow scp@cup.portal.com -- fadden@zen.berkeley.edu [crashed] c60c-3aw@widow.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (Outgoing E-mail has about a 40% chance of successfully reaching you. Feel free to respond through the mail, but I probably can't answer.)