c60c-3aw@e260-3c.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (10/29/88)
In article <8778@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >In article <1577@netmbx.UUCP> blume@netmbx.UUCP (Heiko Blume) writes: >>why the hell don't they (apple, whoever) just publish the locations >>that have changed ... > >I suspect they don't want you making a copy of their Copyrighted ROM. If the computer can read the ROM, so can you... Anybody out there remember the original "Apple II Technical Manual"? The "dumbing down" of textbooks is a popular topic among educators in California; it seems to be the main drive of Apple computer. For those who don't remember, this one brief book had complete monitor ROM source listings (pasted directly from a dot-matrix printer), pinouts for the slots, game controler, etc., schematics of various things... even the original DOS 3.3 manual had schematics for the 20-pin connector. No longer. Now everybody gets treated like a Macintosh owner (never mind how it works. If it beeps at you, pay us $$$ and we'll make it better.) -- fadden@zen.berkeley.edu [crashed] c60c-3aw@widow.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) "All good things must come to an end."
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (10/31/88)
In article <19697@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >So why do you say "no longer"? What (besides the GS ROM listings) would you >like to see? The IIGS itself has pretty good documentation, although it should have been available sooner to really have been useful. The biggest problem with Apple documentation occurs when one buys a peripheral, say a disk drive, monitor, scanner, etc. Usually the manual that accompanies it might as well not have been written since in umpteen pages all it really says is "plug in the obvious cables in the obvious places and hope it works". Interface and protocol specs are almost never given, so one is unable to program the equipment oneself. Presumably SOMEone can obtain the necessary technical information, because eventually a few commercial products might support the device, but no indication is given how a normal customer (i.e. not a privileged developer) can obtain this information. Apple software products generally have even less useful documentation. I don't recall seeing such critical information as file formats described in recent software product manuals. I'm sure that there is a need to include instructions for the "naive" user, who may really be too dumb to figure out how to plug things together or how to use menus. However, there should ALSO be a card included in the product package that can be mailed to obtain useful technical information, for those that have a need for it. What made the Apple II so successful in the first place was the ability of Apple II owners or their neighbors to program the system to do their unique tasks that no commercial developer would ever want to spend time supporting. For continued success this kind of activity needs to be supported by Apple, simply by providing access to the needed tools and information. I've even heard a few Apple management types say publicly that Apple wants to address the (thinking) individual in preference to the (mindless) mass public. If that is really true, as I would hope, then you need to see that the individual has the means to develop his own solutions using your products.
c60c-3aw@web-3d.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (10/31/88)
In article <19697@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >In article <16175@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-3aw@e260-3c.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) writes: >>controler, etc., schematics of various things... even the original DOS 3.3 >>manual had schematics for the 20-pin connector. No longer. >> >In all serisousness, what do you want??? We can't give you the source code >listings to the ROMs in the GS...That takes up six 3" binders of small printing. Perhaps I over reacted here. I based my screeching on a "technical" manual I glanced through one day; it basically said "these tool boxes exist" and nothing more (the Firmware manual?) The only useful thing in it was a breakdown of the I/O page ($C000--). Books from other sources tend to have more specific information about how the internals are structured (all the layers of dereferencing in the tool boxes, for example). This is information that does not need to be widely known; much of it is subject to change. Try comparing "The ProDOS Technical Reference Manual" with "Beneath Apple ProDOS" some time. The trend seems to be toward "user friendliness". Take a look in the old DOS 3.3 manuals; they aren't easy to read, but *all* of the info is there. From how to get a catalog to how the drive works. Instead of breaking down the literature by subject, it is being divided into "technicality levels" (my phrase). >However, the Apple //e and //c manual still have ROM listings in them. Also, >the Apple IIGS Hardware reference manual does a really good job at explaining >the hardware aspects. It also has the GS schematics on large foldout pages at >the back of the book. (The //c manual I just thumbed through also has sche- >matics). That's good to hear. I have yet to see the Hardware tech ref in a book store, so I'm going to have to plead ignorance. >So why do you say "no longer"? What (besides the GS ROM listings) would you >like to see? Difficult to answer w/o knowing what is available... I have yet to see a thorough description of the SmartPort (my Tech Note subscription ran out a while back). Since most of the internal entry points in the GS ROM are very subject to change, it would be worthless to publish them, so that's out of the question. If I think of something I'll let you know. >Keith Rollin UUCP: amdahl\ -- fadden@zen.berkeley.edu [crashed] c60c-3aw@widow.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) (Outgoing E-mail has about a 40% chance of successfully reaching you. Feel free to respond through the mail, but I probably can't answer.)
ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET (10/31/88)
Keith Rollin, Apple developer (tech support) asks: "what would you like to see?" in reply to a complaint about the mindlessness of current Apple "owners manuals". I would like to see schematics of the modem and printer port circuits, since the 6551 is no longer used. I would like to have an explanation of what the control panel actually does when you make a given selection, since in many cases it does not do what the name of the selection implies. I could go on for miles.
ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET (10/31/88)
Back to the subject of GS/OS being booted from slot 5 and unable to see a hard disk in slot 7, when I boot from slot 5 it's to test out a downloaded program with my HD turned off. Once convinced I didn't get a virus, I turn on the HD. No way is the finder going to know that! Nor is there any way to make the finder check slot 7 without first leaving the finder. I would love to be demonstrated wrong here, but it hasn't happened yet.
mcgurrin@MITRE.ARPA (11/01/88)
Here's an example of a question I had awhile back and could never find an answer to: can the IIGS serial port be used to support HDLC synchronous communications? I know the key chip used is designed to support HDLC communications, and I know that localtalk is a synchronous protocol, but if one can, and how one could access the necessary features of the chip I don't know. The GS reference manuals didn't seem to have enough information to answer this question when I looked.
ctuel@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Cliff Tuel) (11/01/88)
In article <16248@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-3aw@web-3d.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) writes: >In article <19697@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >>In article <16175@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-3aw@e260-3c.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) writes: >>However, the Apple //e and //c manual still have ROM listings in them. Still? When I bought my //c in 1985, there was absolutely NO technical documentation. The _Apple //c Technical Reference Manual_, which has a complete firmware listing, was $50 extra. -- b---------------------------d ____ b----------------------------------------d | Cliff Tuel | / ` | "If sometimes you can't hear me, it's | | ctuel@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU | \__|_, | because I'm in parenthesis." S Wright | p---------------------------q | p----------------------------------------q
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (11/02/88)
In article <8810311753.aa13861@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET writes: >Keith Rollin, Apple developer (tech support) asks: "what would you like to >see?" in reply to a complaint about the mindlessness of current Apple >"owners manuals". I would like to see schematics of the modem and printer >port circuits, since the 6551 is no longer used. I would like to have an >explanation of what the control panel actually does when you make a given >selection, since in many cases it does not do what the name of the selection >implies. I could go on for miles. Please! Do go on for miles! However, I would like to point out the difference between "Owners Manuals" and "Technical Manuals". The Owner's Manuals are indeed "mindless" to a group that is as technically advanced as this one. However, to the other 2.5 million Apple II* owners out there, the Owners Manuals are just fine. For this reason, we publish the Technical Manuals separately. In these manuals, you will likely find the information you need. For instance, the schematics for the SCC in the Apple IIGS are included on Part 4 of the foldouts at the end of the Apple IIGS Hardware Reference. As for the Control Panel, what are your concerns there? What isn't it doing? What would you like to know about it? For the most part, it simply stores values in Battery RAM for the ROMs to use later (like keyboard speed, etc.). Some things, like border color, take effect immediately. Keith Rollin UUCP: amdahl\ Developer Technical Support pyramid!sun !apple!keith Apple Computer decwrl/ BITNET: keith%apple.com@relay.cs.net "You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!"
ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET (11/02/88)
More on what I want in a manual - Yes, there are 13 large and very expensive manuals (technical) for the IIgs that I could buy if (a) any dealers had them in stock and (b) I could afford several hundred dollars worth of manuals. I did buy the IIgs "Technical Reference Manual", which is a PROGRAMMERS manual, not a technician's manual! (Bad name.) How to program should be covered in optional manuals; the technical data on the hardware should come with the machine.
jib@prism.TMC.COM (11/14/88)
RE: Documentation
Most of the Addison Wesley Apple Official reference books are available at
larger B.Dalton and other national bookstores.
All of them are available by mail (along with many other good Apple 2
books) from A2 Central (the new name for Open-Apple, Tom Weishar's
newsletter). I don't have the address with me, but I'll try to bring it
in. There is no charge for shipping (and no sales tax if you don't live
in Kansas).
Regarding the price of the manuals. Yes they are high. But not higher
than a thick information-filled manual in hardcover needs to be. And I
find their quality much better than the original Apple II manuals. ( I
bought my first Apple II+ in 1980, when they include a tech ref. manual).
[By "better" I mean more detailed.]
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