C70301DB@WUVMD.BITNET (12/07/88)
Are demon dialers (like in Wargames) illegal? If not, is there one somewhere on the net, or would someone upload one? Thanks!
lan@bucsb.UUCP (Larry Nathanson) (12/10/88)
In article <8812071113.aa00431@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> C70301DB@WUVMD.BITNET writes: >Are demon dialers (like in Wargames) illegal? If not, is there one somewhere >on the net, or would someone upload one? Thanks! The big question here, isn't whether or not the PROGRAM is illegal- I Don't think mere code can be outlawed. It MAY be illegal to use such a program, however. Also, even if it is legal, are there any morally 'correct' reasons to use such a program? If someone wanted you to have their modem number, it would be published for you to find! (Note- I'm not attacking you personally- just bringing up a few points...) Also, this raises quite a few sticky computer-law issues- If someone wants to get a discussion going, comp.sys.apple is the wrong place- If you followup elsewhere, let me know! :-) -Larry -- __!__ A soul in tension that's learning to fly |'| Larry Nathanson -----o----- Condition grounded but determined to try |'| 617/375-7020 " " Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky |'| 140 Bay St Rd #203E Tounge-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I |^| Boston, Mass 02215
C70301DB@WUVMD.BITNET (12/22/88)
I've posted this question before, but if it didn't make it, here it is again. Are demon dialers (like in "War Games") legal? If so, does anyone have a program listing they are willing to share or where I can acquire one? I would use it to find the BBS's in my area. Please post replies to the list or e-mail them directly to me. Thanks! C70301DB@WUVMD
C70301RC@WUVMD.BITNET (Rob) (12/22/88)
I think I saw this question here before, but I'll go ahead and ask it again. Are demon-dialers (like in "War Games" legal? If they are, could someone send me a program listing for one or tell me where I can acquire one? I would like to use one in order to find the BBS phone numbers in my area. Any help would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------- | Rob Caton |"I'm not trying | |--------------------------| to cause a big | | C70301RC@WUVMD | sensation."-RD | |============================================== | "ACK THIPPFFT" _ /| | Don't blame me; | | --Bill 'O.O | I voted for Bill | | the =(___)= | and Opus!!! | | Cat U | | -----------------------------------------------
ptownson@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Patrick Townson) (12/26/88)
In article <8812250929.aa21811@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> C70301DB@WUVMD.BITNET writes: >I've posted this question before, but if it didn't make it, here it is again. > >Are demon dialers (like in "War Games") legal? If so, does anyone have a >program listing they are willing to share or where I can acquire one? I >would use it to find the BBS's in my area. Please post replies to the list >or e-mail them directly to me. Thanks! > The act of dialing telephone numbers for no other reason than to detirmine how they are are answered (modem, voice, etc) is harrassment, and in very poor taste. In the process of dialing all those numbers, you invade the privacy of many people, and disturb them sleeping, etc. The nature of the act is such it is hard to catch the person doing it, but I suspect if the person was caught, a signed complaint by someone whose telephone had been rung in the process would stick. The Demon Dialer as a hardware device used to store a large directory of numbers and redial repeatedly as required to establish a *legitimate* connection is a legal, and quite useful device. If you are looking for software to do the former -- just dial over and over, seeking carrier, then I believe your intentions are less than honorable. Patrick Townson
cs374326@umbc3.UMD.EDU (Peter Johansson) (12/26/88)
In article <26917@bu-cs.BU.EDU> ptownson@bu-cs.bu.edu (Patrick Townson) writes: >In article <8812250929.aa21811@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> C70301DB@WUVMD.BITNET writes: >>I've posted this question before, but if it didn't make it, here it is again. Your first article made it here. We just ignored it. >> >>Are demon dialers (like in "War Games") legal? If so, does anyone have a >>program listing they are willing to share or where I can acquire one? I >>would use it to find the BBS's in my area. Please post replies to the list >>or e-mail them directly to me. Thanks! >> >The act of dialing telephone numbers for no other reason than to detirmine >how they are are answered (modem, voice, etc) is harrassment, and in very >poor taste. >[stuff deleted...] >The Demon Dialer as a hardware device used to store a large directory of >numbers and redial repeatedly as required to establish a *legitimate* >connection is a legal, and quite useful device. >Patrick Townson >>Rob Caton As Mr. Townson mentions, there is a difference between "Demon Dialers" (most likely a trade mark of someone) and what are known in the BBS world as "Wargames Dialers." The primary use of the wargame dialer is to locate the telephone numbers of mini and mainframe computers belonging to corporations, with the usual intent of hacking passwords into said systems. Of course, if you have an Apple Cat modem (a phreak's best friend) you can detect other items of interest like test lines, loops, PABX's, LD access lines, etc... Though I believe the act of searching for such numbers is legal (the usual arguement goes something like "by installing a public line, you are allowing the public to access it...") the *intent* behind such actions is most deffinately not. Please don't use the excuse that you are looking for BBS numbers. BBS numbers are very easy to come by for practically every local calling area in the U.S. All you really need is the number to one system, since most BBSs have a listing of other BBSs in the area, and you should be able to get at least one number from a local computer store, users group, a public net (compuserve, source, etc) or even this very net. Well enough flaming at Mr. Caton (well, very low flames, this is xmas morning) especially since I too did own an Apple Cat ('nuff said! :-) many, many moons ago when I used my APPLE ][ (no trailing designations) Now I want to turn the flames up really high on something that's really been bothering me recently. \begin{flame} In the past several months, I've gotten half a dozen calls on my unpublished modem line, to which the number of has *never* been given to any corporation/mailing list/etc, (I'm lucky enough to have 2 lines) from these things that are like computerized answering machines in reverse. They call you up (and some of them are even smart enough to start talking only after you say something) and this computer starts this sales pitch, after which you are allowed to leave responses. THESE THINGS REALLY PISS ME OFF! It is obvious that they are calling every number sequentially, unlisted and unregistered as well, to obtain coverage of an entire area, just like the wargames dialer of yore. I know what I said about opening yourself up to the public, but this is *OUTRAGEOUS*. I make sure and let these companies know how I feel with as many explaitves I can get in as they allow me time, and make sure that I *NEVER* deal with companies that use such techniques. \end{flame} Too bad all those t-files from (ahem, pirate) BBSs that describe how to make devices that fry the callers phone/modem are B.S. If they did work, I would be very tempted to use them on occasion. :-) cat flames > /dev/companies.that.make.or.use.wargames.dialers .signature busted peter@umbc2.umd.edu peter@umbc2.bitnet
carlb@pro-avalon.cts.com (Carl Boernecke) (12/26/88)
C70301RC%WUVMD.BITNET (Rob) writes: | Are demon-dialers (like in "War Games" legal? If they are, could someone | send me a program listing for one or tell me where I can acquire one? I | would like to use one in order to find the BBS phone numbers in my area. | Any help would be greatly appreciated. As I understand it (I heard this from a man), you can use WarGames dialers, as long as you don't call after 9 PM, or before 9 AM -- it's assumed that most people are awake between those hours, or not around. -- carlb@pro-avalon UUCP: crash!pro-avalon!carlb ARPA: crash!pro-avalon!carlb@nosc.mil INET: carlb@pro-avalon.cts.com
rms@gorf.UUCP (Roger M. Shimada) (12/27/88)
I've had enough of this discussion. There ARE NO GOOD REASONS to use "Wargames" dialers. Using such things does NOTHING BUT ANNOY people. If you dial a number, you'd better have a reason for doing it. Wrong numbers are one thing, but dialing to get a carrier tone is quite another. (This follow-up was provoked by the person who posted "that it might be okay to use a 'Wargames' dailer between 9 AM and 9 PM." Does anyone think businesses or answering machines appreciate this sort of thing? Having a bad subject and a bad follow-up needed some clearing up.) -- Roger M. Shimada rms@gorf.mn.org
hassell@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Christopher Hassell) (12/27/88)
Funny, but actually I remember getting alot of those type of calls in junior-high back when I thought this girl liked me, ya know ... wait...... .....naaaahhh. Actually REALLY I have heard a few of these myself and they seem to last just long enough to have heard a carrier or not. I personally am convinced they are being used already, regardless of their 'moral status'. Any comments?
C70301RC@WUVMD.BITNET (Rob Caton) (12/29/88)
>I've had enough of this discussion. There ARE NO GOOD REASONS >to use "Wargames" dialers... > >(This follow-up was provoked by the person who posted "that it >might be okay to use a 'Wargames' dailer between 9 AM and 9 PM." >Does anyone think businesses or answering machines appreciate >this sort of thing? Having a bad subject and a bad follow-up >needed some clearing up.) >-- >Roger M. Shimada rms@gorf.mn.org I think the person who stated the 9 AM to 9 PM hours for dialers was referring to the ones that are like the reverse answering machines (as stated by yet another person), not the "search for carrier" dialers. I've been getting postings haphazardly lately, so I would like to again apologize for the mess I've created with the question. I guess a positive aspect of this is that it shows how the computing community feels about the darker side of hacking. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Rob Caton |BITNET: C70301RC@WUVMD | |--------------------------|APPLELINK: RobCaton <==(How original:-)| |==================================================================== | "ACK THIPPFFT" _ /| | Don't blame me; | | --Bill 'O.O | I voted for Bill | | the =(___)= | and Opus!!! | | Cat U | | -----------------------------------------------
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (12/29/88)
>Actually REALLY I have heard a few of these myself and they seem to last just >long enough to have heard a carrier or not. I personally am convinced they >are being used already, regardless of their 'moral status'. Any comments? 1) it's not uncommon for someone to realize they have dialed incorrectly just about the time the phone on the other end rings (in fact with some electronic systems the "ring tone" the caller hears isn't synchronized with the actual bell so the phone actually rings before the caller perceives that it has). That phenomenon leads to any number of "no one's there" calls that are NOT deamon dialers run wild. 2) Just because someone (any number of people) is engaged in dubious (even simply annoying) behavior, in no way justifies joining in (the old adage about two wrongs not making a right applies). [The Far Side shall return (I hope)] Murph Sewall Sewall@UCONNVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {rutgers psuvax1 ucbvax & in Europe - mcvax} !UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] -+- My employer isn't responsible for my mistakes AND vice-versa! (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited) "Close enough for government work" - source unknown (naturally ;-)
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (01/02/89)
In article <8812290140.aa06195@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) writes: >2) Just because someone (any number of people) is engaged in dubious > (even simply annoying) behavior, in no way justifies joining in > (the old adage about two wrongs not making a right applies). Better yet, apply the Golden Rule (about the ONLY commonly accepted ethical principle with any validity): If you would not like to be awoken in the middle of the night by the phone ringing, only to have the caller hang up when you answer the phone, then do not inflict that situation on others.