AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") (12/27/88)
>Date: Fri, 23 Dec 88 11:21:05 GMT >From: Christopher Hassell <tramp!hassell@BOULDER.COLORADO.EDU> >Subject: Apple II Future [Decl. of Annexation / NEW IIgs+ Dsgn: Long] >[...] For the Apple computer to survive we must kill some of the >demons forcing it into the 3-M mold. > >For memory - There must be better ways to organize firmware. I would >like to discuss this if anyone wants to. Firmware could handle the >Constantly Duplicated problems/algor[i]thms out there. Once again >j'accuse the op-sys for striving too much for too complex a method of >clipboarding. I think the toolbox is an _awesome_ way to organize firmware. It's easily patchable, extendable, has a simple & consistent interface...what's your complaint? That it doesn't do _everything_ you could ever want? Can't argue with that, but there are other mechanisms provided by the system: libraries, for example. What's wrong with the way the clipboard (scrap manager) works on the GS, other than that very few programs bother supporting it properly? It's not complicated; it's neat. (Works well on the Mac, no?) >What about stuff like Unix has? In Unix files can be stuffed >*anywhere* from anywhere. <its called "ascii" formatting> <handling >programs provided> Bingo! Because of simple redirection from an O/S ><desktoppable?> endless conversions/movements could be made >Unnecessary! [note "abilities" of standard system would be amplified >& costs-reduced by this] If you have some ideas on how to implement the equivalent of redirection and pipes in a desktop environment, I'd like to hear them. I _don't_ think it would be a terribly good idea to standardize on ascii-formatted data for all interprogram communication. The two currently-defined "scrap types" (things that can be on the clipboard) are TEXT and PICT. PICT is a very flexible format that is basically a sequence of recorded QuickDraw calls; expressing it as text would be a lot less efficient. >I DON'T SEE why you couldn't go all the way and get a second processor. >This IS the Trend Of The Future. Ah, but introducing another processor also makes everything more complicated, which isn't a good thing. I think we ought to concentrate on the operating system and toolbox and on getting programmers to _follow standards_ when they can. I'm thinking particularly of the Clipboard and of Desk Accessories here. And, of course, there are lots of utilities that need to be written (GS/OS versions of things that people are still using ProDOS 8 for, among other things): font editor, disk editor, disk repair, decent disk-copy, a _FAST_ linker, etc. And people just generally need to avoid doing Stupid Things when they write software...for example, Tetris allocates $012000...019FFF for doing animation (shadows onto $E12000), but if that memory is already in use, they use it anyway. It doesn't even check for an error code when requesting the memory. >Small conclusion: > NOW does anyone see why we should commandeer the R & D dept? Nope, _I_ don't. I certainly encourage everybody to give their comments to R&D, but what we need at this point it to clean up what we have (stomp hard on any remaining toolbox bugs, work for more speed in the toolbox [this will benefit the zillions of people who _already_ own IIgs's & don't particularly want to pay for a new motherboard]), and most importantly get third-party developers to make their software fit into the system nicely (supporting CDAs, clipboard, and [if a Desktop applicaton] NDAs, and _not_ requring a reboot before or after using their software! That's not too much to ask, is it?). I wouldn't mind seeing a new ROM releasted w/ more tools in it; this will save a little boot time. A resource manager and maybe an International Utilities package would be keen, too, and I sincerely hope these & other things are in the works. I think _software_ stuff is what we need most right now, not new hardware that's going to make software _more_ complicated. >{rutgers!sunybcs,ncar,nbires}!boulder!tramp!hassell (I'm there somewhere) --David A. Lyons bitnet: awcttypa@uiamvs DAL Systems CompuServe: 72177,3233 P.O. Box 287 GEnie mail: D.LYONS2 North Liberty, IA 52317 AppleLinkPE: Dave Lyons
AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") (01/30/89)
>Date: Sun, 29 Jan 89 14:05:21 CST >From: "Jeremy G. Mereness" <jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU> >Subject: Re: Apple VS IBM >I have got to agree with this article. I have been seeking to >purchase a computer for some time now, and I need a package that is >fast, programmable, has a large software base, and has enough >flexibility that it will grow with my needs. And my budget is >limited, so don't recommend a Mac // w/a 60 meg hard drive. Stick with the GS. Get a Transwarp from AE. >[...] And the promise of reading Mac disks and Appletalk >compatibility (for FTP, Appleshare, etc) remain unfulfilled. System Disk 3.2 is compatible with AppleShare. It works--I've used it. Documentation on AppleTalk documentation is available from APDA. Apple doesn't generally announce things--like HFS File System Translators--for GS/OS before they're ready to release them. But I bet they're making good progress--why would they have bothered designing FSTs into GS/OS if they weren't going to have one? Releasing an FST that was not completely bug-free would be a big mistake. >Die hard enthususiasts have made the Amiga and AtariST increasingly >popular and powerful computers, both reasonably priced, too. >Meanwhile, the GS remains unexploited... even the Ensoniq sound chip >has been wasted; that thing can sound like the best $2000 >synthesizers yet I've heard better stuff on a Amiga. Have you used Diversi-Tune by Bill Basham of Diversified Software Research? >Before I buy a used gs, I MUST have some confirmation that the >Manufacturer intends to support its product. I don't have the money >to get hustled by a corporate giant that cares nothing for its >public. GS/OS doesn't convince you they're putting a lot of work into the GS? GS/OS's awesomeness is not apparent to everybody yet, but that won't last long. What do you want them to do? For the first years of its life, the Mac didn't even have an OS that supported subdirectories (although it looked like it did from the Finder only). The GS works with existing Apple II software and now has an almost fully mature operating system (resource manager coming to multiply the fun and flexibility of programming the GS by a large positive number!). >jeremy mereness >jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu --David A. Lyons bitnet: awcttypa@uiamvs DAL Systems CompuServe: 72177,3233 P.O. Box 287 GEnie mail: D.LYONS2 North Liberty, IA 52317 AppleLinkPE: Dave Lyons
jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") (01/30/89)
David A. Lyons (DAL Systems) writes... >System Disk 3.2 is compatible with AppleShare. It works--I've used >it. Documentation on AppleTalk documentation is available from APDA. Please E-mail to me what it is capable of, such as filesharing on Mac servers, acceessing different Appletalk zones, connecting through Kinetics boxes to Ethernet networks, and the possibility of TCP/IP interfacing like the Stanford program Mac/IP for Macintoshes. All of the buildings on Carnegie-Mellon's campus are wired for Ethernet and Appletalk via Kinetics boxes. I worry about the GS because I have never seen an effective version of Chooser running on it, nor a TCP/IP implementation to telnet to Vaxes and workstations. >>Meanwhile, the GS remains unexploited... even the Ensoniq sound chip >>has been wasted; that thing can sound like the best $2000 >>synthesizers yet I've heard better stuff on a Amiga. >Have you used Diversi-Tune by Bill Basham of Diversified Software >Research? Yes, I have heard beta versions, and I wan't too impressed. I have one of the synthesizers that uses the Q-chip from Ensoniq and the beta Diversa-Tune didn't really impress me. Another factor was the noisy signal the machine produces. My biggest disappointment, however, is that Apple has pushed the Macintosh into the high-end synthesis market instead of the GS. Perhaps 2.5MHz is not fast enough to handle the high speed required for MIDI processing, but why hasn't there been a MIDI keyboard interface written that turns the GS into a synthesizer; i.e. plays the Ensoniq chip directly from a keyboard? If the GS is not capable of this fro some reason, I want to know; because if/when I ever get one, I want to write just such a program. ...and oh yes... I agree that there is no real subdirectory support in Appleworks; prodos was pretty new then, and Lissner was writing for two drive machines. But otherwise, it is the best text-based interface I have ever seen, and the GS performs exceptionally well on its text screen. I would like to make a SHR Prodos shell of this, including a mouse character for a few simple operation that the mouse does best, and different color text. Maybe a strange idea, but it would be faster and smoother than the window manager. >--David A. Lyons bitnet: awcttypa@uiamvs > DAL Systems CompuServe: 72177,3233 > P.O. Box 287 GEnie mail: D.LYONS2 > North Liberty, IA 52317 AppleLinkPE: Dave Lyons jeremy mereness jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu r746jm7e@cmccvb (Bitnet)
MEK4_LTD@DB2.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU (01/31/89)
Hmm, iI have worked with the GS sound, and I have worked iwwith many samplerskeyboard samplers in the $02000 dorange. I'm sorry, but the $2000 daollar sampler winds ahands down. most $2000 dollar samplers notw sample at 12 bit, and many new ones at 16 bits. The bandwithdth is far superiosr to that of the GS. But I do febefore it looks like I'm condeminning the soud nd queality of the GS, I agree that many programmers have not fully exploited teh he sound power of the GS. A mDiversi-Tune (esp. the latesst eversion) demontstrates tahhat the IIGS is capable of incerredible sound. One problem is that it seems taht getting samples into the machine without incurring noicse is a very difficult taksk unlesss wiothout using some specialized (external) hardware. Mark E. Kern bitnetGEne
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (01/31/89)
In article <8901291814.aa20287@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") writes: >(resource manager coming to multiply the fun and >flexibility of programming the GS by a large positive number!). How about explaining this. I don't have a "resource manager" on my REAL computers and haven't felt the need for one. What does it buy you (other than a cheap, inelegant way to support multiple natural language messages)?
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (02/01/89)
In article <9547@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >In article <8901291814.aa20287@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") writes: >>(resource manager coming to multiply the fun and >>flexibility of programming the GS by a large positive number!). > >How about explaining this. I don't have a "resource manager" on >my REAL computers and haven't felt the need for one. What does it >buy you (other than a cheap, inelegant way to support multiple >natural language messages)? The main reason for the Resource Manager on the Macintosh was for "localization". This is where we translate system software to support other languages, like you suspected. However, it has also become a way for easy customization of software in other ways. For instance, some programs base what they can do on the kinds of resources they find in their resource fork. As an example, I am writing a BlackJack card counting program that gets its card counting systems from resources. By simply adding another resource, I can get the program to play different systems without having to recompile my program. It is also possible to override certain characteristics of the System. On the Macintosh, the layout used by the Finder is stored in a resource. By changing certain values, I can display names in different fonts, have new folders created with different defaults, or choose they way the icons are layed out. I also was able to replace the standard control defintion for the scrollbar on the Mac with one that looks like the GS scrollbar (which I like much better). By changing that one resource in my System File, I was able to change the scrollbars in ALL of my applications! Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. --- Developer Technical Support INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!"
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (02/02/89)
In article <25074@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes:
[examples of using "resource forks"]
But all those could just as easily have been achieved by using ordinary
data files. Why is a "split personality" file particularly useful?keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (02/02/89)
In article <9559@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >In article <25074@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >[examples of using "resource forks"] > >But all those could just as easily have been achieved by using ordinary >data files. Why is a "split personality" file particularly useful? Because then the resources, or data, will travel with the application. If you copy the application, you have the data that it needs to run. If you have the resources in a separate data file, then you have to make sure that you copy it along with the application. You also run into the problem of filenames. If you have your resources in a data file, the application needs to know where to find it. If the user changes the name <somehow>, then the application is hosed. ----- Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. --- Developer Technical Support INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "You can do what you want to me, but leave my computer alone!"
shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (02/04/89)
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) writes: >In article <8901291814.aa20287@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") writes: >>(resource manager coming to multiply the fun and >>flexibility of programming the GS by a large positive number!). > >How about explaining this. I don't have a "resource manager" on >my REAL computers and haven't felt the need for one. What does it >buy you (other than a cheap, inelegant way to support multiple >natural language messages)? I've seen Mac programmers who want to just "throw together" a program pull parts out from other programs and install them, without needing to add too much code to their application at all, just to get something "quick and dirty" up and running. Just as a "development library" is useful, this is too. UUCP: {uunet!rosevax, amdahl!bungia, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com
shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (02/06/89)
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >It is also possible to override certain characteristics of the System. On >the Macintosh, the layout used by the Finder is stored in a resource. By >changing certain values, I can display names in different fonts, have new >folders created with different defaults, or choose they way the icons are >layed out. I noticed that a friend of mine seems to have replaced his Mac Finder trash can with a toilet. Fun with resource editing... :-) UUCP: {uunet!rosevax, amdahl!bungia, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (02/08/89)
In article <615@orbit.UUCP> shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) writes: >I noticed that a friend of mine seems to have replaced his Mac Finder trash >can with a toilet. Fun with resource editing... :-) Many IIGS owners have done similar things with THEIR trashcan icon, and it had nothing to do with resource editing.
shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (02/09/89)
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) writes: >In article <615@orbit.UUCP> shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) writes: >>I noticed that a friend of mine seems to have replaced his Mac Finder trash >>can with a toilet. Fun with resource editing... :-) > >Many IIGS owners have done similar things with THEIR trashcan icon, >and it had nothing to do with resource editing. I can't believe you flamed that simple comment. What did you read into it? Just because I mentioned the Mac does not mean that I was comparing the Mac to the //gs. My entire point was that resource editing is fun. I suppose I could have used a //gs example. Another friend of mine has had a hey day with his Finder icon file. And therein lies the real difference, I suppose. On the Mac, one friend used a resource editor. On the //gs, another friend used an icon editor. On the Mac, the file was a collection of resources. On the //gs, there was the Finder in one directory and the Finder icon file in another directory. Two different methods to solve the same problem. Both worked. Aren't we comparing Apples to Apples? :-) UUCP: {uunet!rosevax, amdahl!bungia, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com