sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com (The RainForest BBS) (02/18/89)
======================================= Discussion on GEnie concerning ShrinkIt from February 9th thru February 17th... ======================================= TOPIC Sub: ShrinkIt: a new standard? The Librarian here refused to allow you the option of downloading and trying a NEW, faster, auto-compressing, single file removeable, greatly enhanced packing program with a GREAT interface. It's available elsewhere/try it.. /steve system manager rainforest bbs 305-434-4927 (not PC-P'able via 305 node) 25 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 1 Thu Feb 09, 1989 LINEFEED (Forwarded) Gee... I have used ShrinkIt, and thought it was well done, too. Even got an assigned filetype/auxtype from Apple (according to the docs) for it's files. But I think that may be where the problem with GEnie starts. You see, GEnie doesn't know SQUAT about Apple filetypes. That's the whole reason for Binary II in the first place. BNY/BQY doesn't care what type the file to be unpacked is. Binary, Text, heck, it'll probably even accept AWP files if they contain the proper Binary II header! mainframes are not able to do "true" Apple transfers, as they are most definately NOT ProDOS-based... Heck, with it's built-in virus detecting abilities, and it's more compact NuFX archiving (including adding to and otherwise modifying already-shrunk files) I'd be willing to push for a changeover. It's FREE, it's easy-to-use, and there's GOT to more support than "Digipack" (right, Eric?) The other problem is that you need to be able to receive it in an "exec" form (like with BLU) for those who are not as well-equipped as others. So, Uncle-DOS, what's the story??? ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 2 Thu Feb 09, 1989 DAVE.LYONS [DAL Systems] (Forwarded) I disagree with the decision not to allow ShrinkIt to be _downloaded_ from GEnie; however, I _do_ support the right of the A2/A2PRO administration to require that UPLOADS be _in Binary II_ format. Users are confused enough already with only one unpacker to use for GEnie downloads. I don't feel that ShrinkIt has been available long enough _yet_ to tru st it, anyway. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 3 Thu Feb 09, 1989 T.VIER (Forwarded) Is there a Bin II version for us MS-DOS types who have Apple files and modems in MS-DOS machines?????????? Cousin Tom ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 4 Thu Feb 09, 1989 A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 15:05 EST We have had no less than five users upload ShrinkIt. In my opinion, personally, even though it's not yet finished, it's the finest Apple II packer I've ever seen. I thought I'd gotten back to everybody on this, but apparntly either I missed SSCHNEIDER or he didn't find my answer sufficient. At this point we cannot support Shrinkit. The packing program is not yet finished and still contains bugs. In addition, it cannot be used on un- enhanced IIe's or on a II+. It cannot pack or at le ast unpack Binary II or BQY files, meaning we would immediately have a tower of Babel in the library. ShrinkIt does have its own file type but this is NOT an issue. It only packs into that filetype, it does not check the file type when unpacking and thus will unpack files even with a TXT file type. Even if this were a problem, Binary II could still be used with Shrinkit, it would simply make using the Squeeze option in BLU unnecessary. ShrinkIt and Binary II are not mutually exclusive. We have sent messages to Andy Nicholas making it plain that we are seriously considering supporting ShrinkIt and may even give him an internal, free account, like Floyd Zink. We cannot support ShrinkIt or do that until the limitations I mentioned have been addressed. It would be better for us not to release ShrinkIt in the regular A2 library right now. We would have many users, especially neophytes or those who don't read the BB, using it, and we would be faced with deleting all those uploads. However, the A2Pro people might want to make it available in their library, where fewer neophytes are likely to download and start using it to upload here. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 5 Thu Feb 09, 1989 Tom V. - I think there is Turbo Pascal source for Binary II (for CP/M) in the A2PRO library; search for uploads by JAS.LUTHER. There is at least one bug I've found (with _large_ files), and the program might have to be altered a bit for MS-DOS (but certainly less than the Applesoft/ML versions <grin>). ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 6 Thu Feb 09, 1989 A2PRO.ERIC [1.4meg3.5"s] at 18:14 EST I hate to say this, but ShrinkIt is available in the A2PRO library. Just remember, don't use it to upload anything. (I suppose in that sense, maybe it's better in the A2PRO library...the beginners won't be tempted to try to un- .BQY with it?). -Eric ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 7 Thu Feb 09, 1989 LINEFEED at 22:46 EST Only one? You mean you've dropped ProPacker? WONDE RFUL! Category 3, Topic 10 Message 8 Fri Feb 10, 1989 DAN.D [Danny D] at 20:59 EST I for one still think we should continue to consider Shirnkit! Maybe we could even try to get Mr. Niccholas on a RTC and make suggestions and com- ments. Speaking of Mr. Zink, what ever happened to BLU II>? ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 9 Fri Feb 10, 1989 B.HELMUTH at 20:39 PST I'm glad A2 does not allow ShrinkIt uploads. As an Apple ][+ user, the problems posed by a program written in 65c02 code are not easily bypassed. There would be no way, short of installing a 65c02, that someone currently running a 6502 could even begin to use ShrinkIt. It was bad enough using the BASIC Binary II programs, then USQ in the case of .BQY files. The author of ShrinkIt left no such provisions for even piecemeal decoding of the Nu-FX (or whatever its called) format. (Of course, if you are running a ][+, my patch progr am VB2.BNY is in the A2 card...I'm not too proud to plug it blatantly!) The bottom line is, I hope the Apple leaders on GEnie will continue to hold the line against ShrinkIt, until it can be used on the entire spectrum of Apple ][ computers. With luck, "Apple ][ Forever" won't become, "Some Apple ]['s for at least a while longer". ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 10 Fri Feb 10, 1989 A2PRO.ERIC [1.4meg3.5"s] at 23:40 EST ShrinkIt is not even up to 1.0 yet...it's a great program but not bug-free. One other thing to consider it that A2 has over 6,000 files that have been .BQY or BNYed. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 11 Sat Feb 11, 1989 DAVE.LYONS [DAL Systems] at 03:18 EST The NuFX file format itself does not require any particular hardware; the file format is actually designed with the assumption that there will be many different programs available for dealing with NuFX a rchive files. But I can't see a major commercial service considering NuFX as a standard format for its libraries until pack/unpack utilities for the II+ and unenhanced IIe are available in addition to what's already available, and until all of those utilities have been thoroughly tested. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 12 Sat Feb 11, 1989 J.CLARY3 [John] at 09:29 EST No tears for ProPacker! Good riddance, although I'm sure its author intended well. >-- John C. --< ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 13 Sat Feb 11, 1989 C.FARTHING at 21:40 EST I'm lost??? Whats so wrong with BLU? It works... It works well... Why change just for the sake of change? Charles... ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 14 Sat Feb 11, 1989 OA.VAN at 22:03 EST B.Helmuth, Installing a c02 or 802 in your Apple] ][ is not all that difficult - pop one chip out and the other one in. The cost is not all that phenomenal (approx $20 for the 65802 [Jameco]). Unfortunately the most common way that people check for a certain processor is from a machine ID byte rather than check the processor. So you can get a 'not the right processor' error when, in fact, you do have the correct one! With a bit of retraining, I think that could be over come. I don't see the purchase of or use of a c02 in an early Apple as a major deal. I have run a c02 for several years until I changed to an 802 about a year ago. This was in an Apple ][ (no plus) that is circa 1978 or so. Can't say that I can attribute any 'weird happenings' to this combination. Tom Vanderpool ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 15 Sat Feb 11, 1989 The reasons we are seriously looking at ShrinkIt are - 1) It is CONSIDERABLY faster than BLU 2) It is very noticeably more efficient as well (it compacts files smaller than BLU can) 3) It has the ability to automatically check for viruses while unpacking. 4) It has a fine, easy-to-use interface 5) It allows you to add more files to a packed file, and to extract files one at a time as well as all at once 6) It also has a "disk" packing option that works in the same way Propacker does - only faster, more efficient, works with 3.5" drives, and is a lot easier to handle In fact, if we could get it to run on all machines, we'd consider it. However, the limitations are still there - 1) Users of un-enhanced IIe's and II+'s would be forever locked out of using any ShrinkIt files 2) It cannot pack or at least unpack Binary II/BLU files, which would cause confusion and chaos, especially for new users 3) The program is still buggy and not even finished yet ShrinkIt is good, there's no doubt about it. The problems with it right now prohibit its use, but we have sent messages to Andrew Nicholas letting him know our thoughts. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 16 Sun Feb 12, 1989 LINEFEED at 01:18 EST By the way, I tried it today, and although ShrinkIt has a designated filetype/ auxtype, it appears to work just fine with it's files converted to TXT. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 17 Sun Feb 12, 1989 J.KINDALL [ Jerry ] at 09:09 EST Dean, ShrinkIt doesn't look for viruses in the files it's unpacking (I don't think so anyway!), its virus protection is designed to keep viruses from attatching themselves to ShrinkIt itself. ShrinkIt does have a bug when you try to pack a 5.25 disk into a UniDisk 3.5 on a IIc. Andy leaves the 5.25's drive motor running, and the UniDisk firmware hangs while it waits for the 5.25 drive to turn off. The solution is those bytes to EA. This keeps ShrinkIt from turning on the drive motor at all, meaning that it's a little bit slower when packing 5.25 disks, but at least it WORKS now! ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 18 Sun Feb 12, 1989 FLOYD.ZINK at 13:45 EST BLU II will use the same compression algorithm as ShrinkIt uses. That is 9-12 bit variable LZW packing. BLU II will also use Huffman which it uses right now. BLU II will give the user the option of using one or the other, OR using both. If both are selected as a preference then BLU II will use the one that is most efficient for each individual file that it is packing. With most files LZW is more efficient, but with some files, particularily graphics, Huffman is more efficient. The reason Shrinkit is faster is because of the use of LZW. LZW is a single pass compressor, Huffman takes two passes to compress. BLU II will be just as fast as ShrinkIt when using the LZW compression. Of course, if BLU II is using Huffman it will be slower. This is just the nature of the algorithm. BLU II's interface is much improved over BLU. It us es a semi-windowing having to remember volume names or in fact to have to type anything at all. I have been in contact with Andy on ALPE and we are trying to get together to come to some sort of understanding as far as archive formats go. Andy's format is different than the one I came up with for ACU (which BLU II is going to use). I would hate to see the Apple II world split up and have no archive format standard. Hopefully, Andy and I can come to a compromise on this. By the way, BLU II will *still* unpack any .BNY or .BQY files. It will also come with a II+ compatible program. This will be a separate program that won't be as fast, or have all the bells and whistles, but will allow II+ and unenhanced //e users use of the BLU II format. ALPE already uses the ACU/BLU II format. CIS will as soon as I release BLU II. I don't know what will happen here. It's not up to me. One thing though. I won't be pressured to release BLU II prematurely. When it's ready I'll release it, but not until then. ShrinkIt right now is a better compression utility then BLU is, which isn't suprising since BLU is almost two years old. However, in my opinion ShrinkIt is not better than BLU II. Of course, I'm the only one who knows that. <grin> Personally, I am *so* busy and have so many programming projects that I co uld be working on, I don't care one way or the other which program GEnie decides to use. I do think it would be a mistake making any kind of decision without waiting to see BLU II, but ShrinkIt is available now and BLU II isn't. I'm not giving a release date for BLU II because some weeks I might have 20 hours available to program and some weeks I might have none. I have a real job you know? ;) I'm not trying to push BLU II on anyone, just trying to inform everyone what the whole story is. Floyd ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 19 Sun Feb 12, 1989 A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 19:48 EST I am looking forward to seeing BLU II. As I've explained, ShrinkIt is not really an option now. I am seriously hoping that the two of you (Floyd and Andy) do come to some agreement. We will almost certainly wait, at least for a while longer, before making this decision. We want to see BLU II. Our only concern is time frames. I'm hoping we see it within the next couple of months. The need for a decent disk packer is high. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 20 Sun Feb 12, 1989 DAVE.LYONS [DAL Systems] at 21:08 EST The need for a decent _disk packer_ is high, Dean? I've very rarely wanted to pack a whole disk; certainly not if it meant I _had_ to unpack onto a separate disk rather than into a folder on a hard drive or RAMdisk. Tom V--many programs, including ShrinkIt, require the IIe-style 80-column screen as well as the 65C02 processor. In that case checking the ID bytes in the ROM is the appropriate thing to do. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 21 Sun Feb 12, 1989 DELTON at 21:12 EST About the only use I've seen for 'disk' packers is for transmitting DOS 3.3 disks which usually means transmitting pirated games since that's about all that's coming out in DOS 3.3 these days anyway. Agree with Dave in that I never download anything I can't stick in a subdir. Floppys are only good for backups around here and I certainly don't want to have to format a disk everytime I check out a downloaded file. Category 3, Topic 10 Message 22 Mon Feb 13, 1989 A2-CENTRAL [ Dennis ] at 09:49 EST RE disk packers...also CP/M and Apple (UCSD) Pascal disks, as well as any custom OS's (FORTH, etc.), although I agree that the use should be limited (the primary application I can see is to download a disk of utilities under DOS/ProDOS, unpack it, and use the utilities. The CP/M RT keeps Propacked disks of freeware comm programs and library archive utilities, for example.). One problem with DOS 3.3 is making sure the DOS image isn't left on the disk, since that is Apple's (licensed) software. You also can't be careless about leaving any "extra" software on the disk. (We discourage disk packing on our local Apple II BBS's, except for the exception noted above, for the latter reasons.) ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 23 Mon Feb 13, 1989 A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 13:53 EST I agree that disk packing must remain very secondary, but the need is still there for DOS 3.3, CP/M, Pascal disks, as well as things like system disk updates, which are very difficult to pack with BLU. A disk packer simplifies them. BLU II is supposed to have this capability, so it is only a matter of time before we get it. ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 24 Mon Feb 13, 1989 RJCRAFTS [ISLANDER] at 22:04 EST I'll wait for Blu II. Nothing against Shrinkit (although my GS has shrunk enough already) but I know and trust Blu. BobC ------------ Category 3, Topic 10 Message 25 Fri Feb 17, 1989 DAN.D [Danny D] at 20:34 EST Well, controversy! I'm glad to hear that Floyd is banging out BLU II code! I for one will hold judgement till I see it as BLU has saved us all un- told dollar$ of u/l and d/l. For that, Floyd, thank you... Gee, with two excellent programmers writing two excellent packing programs, wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if they teamed up and creat ed a joint project! (Some people like to dream.....) Dan.. ------------ /steve's note: Looks as if support from DAL and others has caused GEnie to not only reverse a previous decision but to actually consider it as a future standard as well as a possible offer to Andy Nicholas of a free account. <I should be so luck... sigh> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | UUCP: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider APPLELINK : sschneider | | ARPA: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider@nosc.mil COMPU$ERVE: 75166,2544 | | INET: sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com GENIE : sschneider | | The RainForest @ 305-434-4927 / PO Box 841422, Pembroke Pines, Fl, 33084 | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------