tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (01/20/89)
As long as others seem to be jumping on the fight back wagon, I think
that I would like to add a few comments. If the folks at Apple (who
work in Apple ][ support) would pass this on the whoever cares it would
be appreciated.
In 1987 sales the Apple ][ market supposedly did over one billion dollars
in sales. This is from a machine which you and I both know was limited
in its architecture for non-technical reasons. This is a machine that
almost everyone (especially Ken what's-his-name-who-we-want-to-find-out
how-he-runs-EduCOM-and-also-what-his-Email-address-is!) has stated is
outdated, out-moded, and an ancient in its technological makeup. The
local Heath/Zenith on Oahu (where anyone in Hawaii in the know actually
buys Apple from) supposedly pushed more Apple //gs's in Christmas '87
than any other Heath/Zenith dealer in the USA. (One week they were
literally stacked to the ceiling, the next they were _sold_). Then
Apple raised their prices 35%, while at the same time coming out with
an 8-bit machine which runs faster than their elaborate 16-bit machine.
Let me tell you, there were a few buyers (of the //c+) but for the
most part people could not afford the //gs anymore. You priced it out
of their range folks, and just because YOU think that it deserves that
kind of mark up doesn't mean the consumers agree with you. This last
years showed a renewal of the Commodore Colt buyers and Amiga 500 buyers
(at least in this community). The only persons that are even buying
Apple ][ hardware are schools, and they are doing so because they cannot
(probably ever) afford to throw away the large previous investments
which you have asked them to make in your (Apple) educational systems.
Now, you may say that you have kept a good time table on these (Apple ][)
systems; you may even believe this. But, the fact of the matter is you
are going to have to decide a few things about your company, its goals,
and whether you are going to step on your consumers to meet these goals
or be an active participant in the forums and paths which you (as a
company) have initiated. This is rather blunt, but this is the way _I_
definitely feel, and I believe that others are trying to say the same
thing. We have supported you as much as we can, both economically and
verbally. I personally have pursuaded upwards of 100 people to purchase
Apple ][ products for themselves and their families. I have found a
good hobby which has turned a profit once in a while, but for the most
part I fund it to keep the dream alive for me, my friends, and others I
do not even know. The attitude of a number of dreamers is slowly
turning, though. They are leaving the Apple family and whether you
want to admit it or not, they are all not decisively buying Mac SE's
or Mac II's instead. (If a person cannot afford a $3000 //gs they most
certainly are not going to buy a $10000 Mac II!!! Seriously, look
at the numbers. Maybe you do not see it, but the people on feeds
like comp.sys.amiga are amazed at the number of Amiga 500 buyers who
have purchased due to the overpricing of other companies (selling
machines which don't even have the same speed, resolution, or power
of Amiga's). If the rumors about Apple loosing a RAM contract are
true, I'm sorry, but you would still have to go a long way to show
me that this is the reason for the across the board 35% increase in
product pricing (and I have the notes from your last stock holders
meeting). I know all too well how good the Mac is doing. I also
know that the Apple ][ could do _just as well_ if you would give it
the same proportion (based on sales) of development you have the
Mac line. Rebuttal!?!?! How many people are working on the Apple
][ family at this time? :-|
What say you think about doing a few good things... Applelink -
Personal Edition was a helluva start, but still the majority of the
resources on that forum are for the Mac, not the Apple ][ user.
What to do? I really think you should purchase the APDA and have
some hiring-fest with some of the fanatics that are abundant in
the support industry. Then, put them in control of this forum. I'd buy
almost ANYTHING that Uncle-Dos signed his name to! I'm sure that
a large portion of Applers feel exactly the same way.
What else? Well, how's about giving those overworked people in the
Apple ][ support section some serious bucks to develop a machine(s)
that will go _forward_ with the Apple ][ line and be on the market
once every _two_ years minimum. Contrary to popular belief, I
really believe that users would go for upgrades on a tighter schedule
that you are currently providing for the Apple ][ line.
Lastly, get us some decent storage mediums now! Change the Apple
SCSI card to conform to normal SCSI configurations, or at _least_
support the other major companies which are providing storage
at a much cheaper rate (than you). You may not like companies like
CMS or Sider out selling this Apple SCSI, but they sure sell a lot
more Apple ][ computers in the long run! Oh, and that CD-Rom, get
us a good writable/eraseable medium for a comparative (to current
hard drive) price and I think you will be taken quite a bit back by
the number of purchases. [I still shiver from watch the Woz say that
no one is ready for the amount of information available on CD-Rom's!
Heck my 80 megger gets taxed to its limits as it stands!]
Either way, please take this as a suggestive post and not a flame.
I truly do appreciate the attention that Apple ][ supporters in the
company are giving us (as a group). The people that are trying to
help us stay viable are continuing the dream, while at the same time
moving forward and not becoming a stagnant force. Thank you.
Todd South
--
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ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL
INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1tamara@ecsvax.UUCP (Tamara Fischell) (02/19/89)
How many people are working on the Apple > ][ family at this time? :-| > I am working on an APPLE IIgs right now. I was able to get it for a decent price. I couldn't go to Mac, not after purchasing dozens of educational software packages for my kids. And I can't let it my IIe go because there are just too many programs which are incompatible (I'm told drive speed problems) > > Lastly, get us some decent storage mediums now! Change the Apple > SCSI card to conform to normal SCSI configurations, or at _least_ > support the other major companies which are providing storage -------------------------------------------------------- Please APPLE listen to this man. Get us some BIGGG drives at affordable prices. And do please find a way to speed things up!
c08_d042@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Stdnt 42) (02/23/89)
In article <6525@ecsvax.UUCP> tamara@ecsvax.UUCP (Tamara Fischell) writes: ..deleted text.. >> SCSI card to conform to normal SCSI configurations, or at _least_ >> support the other major companies which are providing storage >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Please APPLE listen to this man. Get us some BIGGG drives at >affordable prices. And do please find a way to speed things up! Tell me about it!! Just about the only reason the Apple II line is unable to do many things that Ibm and (especially) Mac & Amiga computers can do is because of its VERY slow processing speed. Plus, it does not have complex 16- or 32-bit operations available on-chip. So to compete with a Mac, let's say, it needs an 8 to 12 MHz clock, the Mac's being about 8 MHz. It's the SLOW PROCESSOR SPEED THAT'S SUFFOCATING THE APPLE II! Give us speed or give us death! Chris Coleman c08_d042@jhunix
NETOPRHM@NCSUVM.BITNET (Hal Meeks) (02/23/89)
It is generally agreed that a faster clock speed (or faster CPU) would help the GS remain competitive. What would also help is for Apple to come up with some sort of concise plan as to the future of the GS. I have the strong feeling that the GS is the machine that "almost did". It had some very strong initial arguments in favor of it when it was released. I know, because I looked at it very closely before buying my Amiga. I get the feeling from reading this group that Apple would very much like to see the Apple II line fade away, but they don't want any blood on their hands. They want the money from their sales, but don't want to divert any of the R&D money being spent on the Mac line to make the GS truly competive for the first time buyer. They would really prefer for you to spend you money on the more profitable Mac line. If you want color, that's even better. This is not intended as a put down of the GS. It makes me a little ill to see what was a very slick little box being as under supported as it is. Recent ad that you've all seen sums it up: Buy a MacII, get a GS free for the kids! Right. --hal
prl3546@tahoma.UUCP (Philip R. Lindberg) (02/24/89)
From article <6525@ecsvax.UUCP>, by tamara@ecsvax.UUCP (Tamara Fischell): > How many people are working on the Apple >> ][ family at this time? :-| >> > > I am working on an APPLE IIgs right now. I was able to get it > > Please APPLE listen to this man. Get us some BIGGG drives at > affordable prices. And do please find a way to speed things up! > I also use my Apple //gs extensively. (For Financial management, word processing, and aprox. 50% time for education of my children.) I enjoy working with it. I'm not going to buy a Mac. I have far too much s/w & h/w invested in the Apple // line to change. But I will continue to upgrade, change, and buy new software for my Apple. My next purchase will probably be an AE's Transwarp GS. In my mind, the Apple // is not dead and never will be. Of the people I know, they feel the same. If Apple sees things differently they are either bind, or not looking. However, I don't think this is the case. There was some statement I heard about, (in some Mac Magazine, I think) which said Apple would drop the //'s for Mac's only, but I don't believe it. I didn't see the original post note on this. Yours is all I can respond to.
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (02/25/89)
In article <615NETOPRHM@NCSUVM> NETOPRHM@NCSUVM.BITNET (Hal Meeks) writes: >It is generally agreed that a faster clock speed (or faster CPU) would >help the GS remain competitive. > >What would also help is for Apple to come up with some sort of concise >plan as to the future of the GS. I have the strong feeling that the >GS is the machine that "almost did". It had some very strong initial >arguments in favor of it when it was released. I know, because I looked >at it very closely before buying my Amiga. Apple DOES have a concise plan for the GS. However, no one outside of Apple is familiar with it due to Apple's policy of not talking about future products. I'd love to tell you all what is in the pipe for the Apple II line, but our lawyers prevent me. For a long time, I resented being constrained by this policy, but after spend- ing time on these networks, I begin to see the reason for it. It's a kind of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't - Catch 22" situation. On the one hand, you have the people who complain that Apple isn't doing anything, when in fact we are; it's just that no one knows about it. On the other hand, if we did announce our plans, no one would buy our computers, waiting for the next latest and greatest. I've seen this happen many times. Often, someone will post a question like: "I would like to get a Mac IIx, but MacWeek says that Apple will be coming out with the Mac IIy in a couple of months. Should I buy now or buy later?" Especially within Apple the situation is prevalent, because many of us know what is in the pipes. A lot of people hold off on getting their Lown-to-Own computer systems because they want to get the most powerful one Apple has to offer. However, by the time that system becomes available in the company store, they hear of some other new whiz-bang computer, and start waiting for IT. Put yourself in that situation. Suppose you were looking for a computer to by, and were attracted to the Apple IIgs. You talk to your friends about it, and they tell you of some rumours concerning an Apple IIgs+. Wouldn't you wait for it to come out before making your decision? I know would. And as a matter of fact, I did. In the Winter of 83, I was thinking of finally buying my own Apple. At the time, the latest version was the Apple ][+. However, I heard rumours of an Apple //e. So I waited a few months, and in January of 84, Apple announced the Apple //e. > >I get the feeling from reading this group that Apple would very much >like to see the Apple II line fade away, but they don't want any >blood on their hands. They want the money from their sales, but don't >want to divert any of the R&D money being spent on the Mac line to make >the GS truly competive for the first time buyer. I think that you are really getting the impression from reading this group that SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS GROUP *THINK* that Apple would very much like to see the Apple II line fade away. There are 3 Apple people active on this net (myself, Mark Johnson, and Rick Ewing), none of us whom would like to see the Apple II go away. Considering our feelings, I don't think that any of us would give the impression that we think the Apple II is going away in the near future. Think about it. Why SHOULD Apple discontinue the Apple II line? People want them, and we're in the business of selling them. Where is there a problem? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. --- Developer Technical Support INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "Argue for your Apple, and sure enough, it's yours" - Keith Rollin, Contusions
-Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) (02/26/89)
Keith, I have enjoyed reading your posts for some time now, but I would like to make a minor correction. Sales of the Apple II+ *increased* after the announcement of the Apple //e. I remember that tha release of the Apple //e was delayed for several months due to the increased sales of the II+. And while the same thing might not happen today, it seems a relavant point. Perhaps if an upgrade path (w/price) was announced at the same time as the machine was announced, there might not be a large drop in sales. Rich -Rich-@cup.portal.com
prl3546@tahoma.UUCP (Philip R. Lindberg) (03/01/89)
From article <615NETOPRHM@NCSUVM>, by NETOPRHM@NCSUVM.BITNET (Hal Meeks): > It is generally agreed that a faster clock speed (or faster CPU) would > help the GS remain competitive. > Try AE's Transwarp GS which makes the //gs run at 7mhz. It screams!! > > I get the feeling from reading this group that Apple would very much > like to see the Apple II line fade away, but they don't want any > blood on their hands. They want the money from their sales, ... I hope you are wrong about Apple's view of the // family. It would be a foolish shame to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. But greed does that to some people.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (03/02/89)
In article <15104@cup.portal.com> -Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) writes: > to make a minor correction. Sales of the Apple II+ *increased* after the > announcement of the Apple //e. I remember that tha release of the Apple //e > was delayed for several months due to the increased sales of the II+. And This is not my recollection. I think the Apple //e was available in stores on the day it was announced. Managing the cut over from the //+ to the //e was fairly difficult, and the Apple // people were recognized for doing this so well. The increased sales of the //+ may have been because dealers were discounting them, to try to sell their remaining ones. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1