AWCTTYPA@UIAMVS.BITNET ("David A. Lyons") (03/05/89)
>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 89 01:21:31 CST >From: "Jeremy G. Mereness" <jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU> >Subject: Programming Standards(wasRe: GS/OS Compatability issues) >[...] I still don't consider GS/OS a "real" operating system for the >GS because of many of these issues: it is too volatile, standards are >too new and are all too often ignored, and for some reason (and I can >only assume that this is because the OS doesn't cover its tracks) a >great deal of software crashes under it. I disagree strongly. (1) It is not "too volatile": programs that don't do anything stupid (trash memory at random, use resource forks for their own purposs, assume device names are ".d1", ".d2", etc) will continue to work under future system disk releases. (2) How can you blame ignorance of standards on the OS? That's the fault of application programmers when it occurs. >[...] as well as the mess of device drivers (I am still having hell >with my Unidisk). Most of the GS users here at Carnegie-Mellon avoid >GS/OS entirely preferring Prodos16 when it's necessary. Did you install the UniDisk 3.5 driver onto your boot disk using the Installer? I (unfortunately) sometimes have to use a GS with only a Profile and a UniDisk 3.5. I have not had any problems (other than being annoyed at the drive's speed). >My biggest complaint is that GS/OS does not check the disk drives, >eject them when necessary, and often fails to realize that it needs >the system disk and instead poles my Unidisk blindly until I reboot >the machine. And there has to be a better way for Finder to handle >its drives than polling them all the time. Uhhh...HOW is GS/OS supposed to know when to eject a disk? The application has to figure that out (it's trivial for an application to ask GS/OS to eject a disk; not so under ProDOS 16). Please explain the "blindly polling the UniDisk" situation better. GS/OS on System Disk 4.0 never needs the system disk itself; what application are you using when this happens? There is currently no better way for the Finder to always notice when you insert a disk than to poll the drives. (The Finder has always polled; this is not new.) It would be nice if the UniDisk didn't make so much noise when it was polled, though. >I feel that Apple needs to set down some _rules_; just a few >protocols even if they are as simple as a text-based "preferences" >file on the startup disk like used on our Unix workstations. We have battery RAM that can be set in the Control Panel. Why complicate things? (What additional settings do you want, anyway?) >and it is viscousy slow. Umm, yeah. GS/OS is slow, so use ProDOS 16 instead (which is considerably slower). By the way, if you want speed, WHY are you using a UniDisk 3.5? A Mac would be slow, too, if you were using it with a UniDisk 3.5 (you can't, though). >jeremy mereness >jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu --David A. Lyons bitnet: awcttypa@uiamvs DAL Systems CompuServe: 72177,3233 P.O. Box 287 GEnie mail: D.LYONS2 North Liberty, IA 52317 AppleLinkPE: Dave Lyons
krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) (03/05/89)
From a recent article by "David A. Lyons": >From: "Jeremy G. Mereness" <jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU> >>[...] I still don't consider GS/OS a "real" operating system for the >>GS because of many of these issues: it is too volatile, standards are >>too new and are all too often ignored, and for some reason (and I can >>only assume that this is because the OS doesn't cover its tracks) a >>great deal of software crashes under it. > > I disagree strongly. > (1) It is not "too volatile": programs that don't do anything stupid > [some examples] will continue to work under future system disk releases. > (2) How can you blame ignorance of standards on the OS? That's the > fault of application programmers when it occurs. The problem with David's statement is that GS/OS occasionally does some of the stupid things he describes, or at least seems to. During development of the most recent project I worked on, GS/OS caused the death of my hard drive on about seven different occasions, over the space of three months. I have the drivers/FSTs installed correctly. Other people working on the same project who stuck with P16 did not have the problems I did. Admittedly, you can't expect a program under development to be free of random memory writing, but as I said, P16 was MUCH more tolerant. The standards used by GS/OS are, by and large, not new. There are some things which always worked under ProDOS which will no longer work, (like assuming devides named .d1, .d2, etc.) , but haven't always been warned against. A conservative programmer never makes assumptions about what the system will do, but it's not always easy to tell the difference between an assumption and an accepted standard. >>[...] as well as the mess of device drivers (I am still having hell >>with my Unidisk). Most of the GS users here at Carnegie-Mellon avoid >>GS/OS entirely preferring Prodos16 when it's necessary. > > Did you install the UniDisk 3.5 driver onto your boot disk using the > Installer? I (unfortunately) sometimes have to use a GS with only a > Profile and a UniDisk 3.5. I have not had any problems (other than > being annoyed at the drive's speed). If Jeremy has JUST a UniDisk on his system, I can see one source of his problems. The system disk has no room for anything else. Despite David's claims, the TOOLS expect the system disk to be online at all times. If you expect to USE your IIgs with only one floppy drive, and you have GS/OS, expect to swap disks a lot! For the most part, (ie, to the best of my knowledge), the tools know when to either ask for the system disk or return an error to the application if the disk isn't there. >>My biggest complaint is that GS/OS does not check the disk drives... >> ... And there has to be a better way for Finder to handle >>its drives than polling them all the time. > > Uhhh...HOW is GS/OS supposed to know when to eject a disk? The > application has to figure that out (it's trivial for an application > to ask GS/OS to eject a disk; not so under ProDOS 16). > [...] > There is currently no better way for the Finder to always notice > when you insert a disk than to poll the drives.... The Mac OS ejects disks; there isn't any reason Apple couldn't do the same thing with GS/OS. And as far as I know, there is no GS/OS call to eject the disk. I know the Finder does it; that was a hack that Dan Oliver (the original author) put in. I once asked Apple's Developer Tech Support why the standard file dialogs didn't have an "Eject" button. They said they'd ask the engineers. The engineers must not have told them. (Presumably it has something to with 5 1/4" disks, which can't be software-ejected, but that doesn't explain why they couldn't add an extra button.) As for polling the drives, that's a hardware/firmware constraint of the UniDisk. But the GS also polls Apple 3.5's (the gray ones that work on the Mac, too), even though the Mac doesn't. I'm not certain, but I belive it is possible to tell the two apart from software. >>and it is viscousy slow. > By the way, if you want speed, WHY are you using a UniDisk 3.5? Agreed. At least get Apple 3.5's. They run anywhere from half-again to twice as fast as the "smart" UniDisks. Apple pushed GS/OS out before it was ready; likewise with the set of tools (System 4.0) that go with it. The support from within Apple for the development (if not the survival) of the IIgs has been, in my personal opinion, abysmal (sp?). The system is buggy. VERY buggy. After having worked on the machine for two and a half years (I started with an Apple II Gumby at StyleWare), I honestly can't say that I expect things to get better. My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! Better yet, Jeremy, since you're at CMU, maybe you can get access to a NeXT. For legal reasons, I need to spell this out: THESE ARE MY OPINIONS, AND ARE NOT THE OPINIONS, OFFICIAL OR UNOFFICIAL, OF CLARIS OR ITS DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! In fact, these are about as far from Calris's opinions as you can get. -- Any opinions you read here are only opinions in my opinion. Jeff Erickson krazy@claris.com "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" -- Krazy Kat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nicholaA@moravian.EDU (03/06/89)
> My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED > an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! Well, quite frankly, I disagree _very_ strongly on this point. > For legal reasons, I need to spell this out: THESE ARE MY OPINIONS, > AND ARE NOT THE OPINIONS, OFFICIAL OR UNOFFICIAL, OF CLARIS OR ITS > DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! In fact, these > are about as far from Calris's opinions as you can get. I'm also certainly glad about that, too. If everyone at Claris had an attitude like you _seem_ to express about the IIgs, we'd have a more serious problem than we already do, wouldn't we? > > Jeff Erickson A certain article that Mike Westerfield wrote on AppleLink PE comes to mind right about this point. Just something I thought you wouldn't mind reading in the wake of all this Apple II-bashing: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subj: My View 89-02-17 12:06:57 est From: MikeW50 I have talked to a lot of people at Apple, and also spent a lot of time watching what Apple says and does. Here are some observations of my own: 1. Apple computer has made no official decision to kill the Apple II. If they had, we would not see the level of support that we do see. 2. There are people at Apple who want to kill the Apple II. They use Macs. They hate the "little brother". I dislike them. 3. The danger to the Apple II is not from a concerted effort to kill the Apple II, it is from a lack of effort from the top to root out and fire the people from comment #2. As I see it, Apple could send some strong, positive messages to us if they care to. Some of these would be: 1. Kick the Macs out of AppleFest. Starting with Boston, AppleFest is no longer an Apple II show, it is a home/education show. Marketing says this is because 29% of the people at the last AppleFest had Macs, despite the fact that there was "no advertising for the Mac." Bull. From what I was told by folks who dropped by our booth, Cambridge marketing didn't have enough pre-ticket sales, and panicked a few days before the show, advertising it as an Apple & Mac show in radio spots. Some of those 29% stopped by me booth, and were mad because I didn't have any Mac software. So, Apple, fix your own problem: take your Macs and put them in their own show. Give us back our Apple II show. 2. A new CPU upgrade would be nice. 3. Continued support for GS/OS and native development tools are essential. Take your cross development tools and show them at your Mac show: real Apple programmers don't give a damn about your cross development tools. 4. Give us Hypercard. 5. Give us a file server that doesn't require a Mac. 6. Fire anyone in top/middle management who tries to kill the II. Promote at least one visible, vocal II supporter to the VP or higher level of management. See, we don't need much! Mike Westerfield ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I can only say that I _really_ support what Mike said. ------------- Andy Nicholas CsNET: shrinkit@moravian.edu Box 435, Moravian College InterNET: shrinkit%moravian.edu@relay.cs.net Bethlehem, PA 18018 liberty!batman!shrinkit@sun.com uucp: rutgers!lafcol!lehi3b15!mc70!shrinkit AppleLink PE: ShrinkIt rutgers!liberty!batman!shrinkit
cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) (03/06/89)
> >Apple pushed GS/OS out before it was ready; likewise with the set >of tools (System 4.0) that go with it. The support from within >Apple for the development (if not the survival) of the IIgs has >been, in my personal opinion, abysmal (sp?). The system is buggy. >VERY buggy. After having worked on the machine for two and >a half years (I started with an Apple II Gumby at StyleWare), I >honestly can't say that I expect things to get better. > >My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED >an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! > >Better yet, Jeremy, since you're at CMU, maybe you can get access >to a NeXT. > It sure is nice to know that someone from Claris has such support for the II line. I have a GS and I am proud of it. I love it very much. Yes, there are days that I wish I had more speed etc. but overall I am perfectly happy with my GS. I knew when I bought my computer that I wasn't getting a real powerhouse, I accepted that. If people wanted a really powerful computer, they probably should have gotten a Mac Se/30 or a mac II. I am going to get the Transwarp GS AND the Floating Point Engine (if they will work together) and that will make the GS much quicker than it currently is. In fact, with those two add ons, I think that my GS will be fast enough to compete with most computers on the market. Especially since most of the programs I use are 8bit (Appleworks, Proterm) but I use enough 16 bit to fully justify buying a GS (Diversi Tune, Graphicwriter etc.) Another thing, My GS has color, does a Mac SE? no MY GS has nice sound (a full 16 voices using Diversi Tune, yes, that's right Diversi Tune gives you ALL 16 voices) a mac has four voices. My GS can run almost ALL apple II software. I have seen the reviews for II-in-a-Mac and I am not impressed. I still believe that the Apple II line is the most versitale computer in the world. And you, Jeff Erickson, maybe you should go work for NeXT! A very MAD Collin Douglas B D in the world. Give it some credit people. And you II
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (03/06/89)
>Date: 5 Mar 89 07:27:51 GMT >From: Jeff Erickson <pnet01!crash!decwrl.dec.com!claris!krazy> >Organization: Claris Corporation, Mountain View CA >Subject: Re: GS/OS and programming standards >Apple pushed GS/OS out before it was ready; likewise with the set >of tools (System 4.0) that go with it. The support from within >Apple for the development (if not the survival) of the IIgs has >been, in my personal opinion, abysmal (sp?). The system is buggy. >VERY buggy. After having worked on the machine for two and >a half years (I started with an Apple II Gumby at StyleWare), I >honestly can't say that I expect things to get better. >My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED >an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! >Better yet, Jeremy, since you're at CMU, maybe you can get access >to a NeXT. >For legal reasons, I need to spell this out: THESE ARE MY OPINIONS, >AND ARE NOT THE OPINIONS, OFFICIAL OR UNOFFICIAL, OF CLARIS OR ITS >DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! In fact, these >are about as far from Calris's opinions as you can get. >-- > Any opinions you read here are only opinions in my opinion. >Jeff Erickson krazy@claris.com > "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" -- Krazy Kat >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree, GS/OS was pushed out before it was ready -- but this slowness was due to the resources which were not put into the development (which means I also agree with the abysmal comment). And, I also agree that you are entitled to your own opinion -- having an opinion is what our whole creed is based upon. I just feel so exhausted, though, when I see things like this coming from Apple (and don't tell me Claris is not Apple). Claris adopted the same philosophy which has reigned in Apple for so long; find a cash cow and milk it. Appleworks was and still is that cash cow. It is supposedly one of the top three most selling programs in the history of computers. Yet, with money like that there was literally no timely support for the product, no matter what box it was published in. For that matter, there has yet to be a Claris-made program for the Apple II family (which I know of) that has nothing to do with file servers and is priced in the normal user range. Claris, instead of producing Apple II software, just purchased another company to do the soiled work. Appleworks GS is quite a bear of an accomplishment (Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that AWGS has more than a megabyte of labels???). But, Claris really had little to do with the creation, IMHO. From the outset of the Mac, all the Apple II users have been asking is for some semblence of support for the support that we have given (freely I might add). Believe me, I am not flaming you. I'm just saddened because I know that you are not the only one in 'our' support services which sees certain things in their true light. Be proud that you have the courage to admit it. I sure am. Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.COM} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1
krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) (03/07/89)
> Andy Nicholas >> me > >> For legal reasons, I need to spell this out: THESE ARE MY OPINIONS, >> AND ARE NOT THE OPINIONS, OFFICIAL OR UNOFFICIAL, OF CLARIS OR ITS >> DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! In fact, these >> are about as far from Calris's opinions as you can get. > > I'm also certainly glad about that, too. If everyone at Claris had an > attitude like you _seem_ to express aobut the IIgs, we'd have a more > serious problem than we already do, wouldn't we? > Yes, you would. Fortunately for you and other Apple IIgs users, that's not the case. > A certain article that Mike Westerfield wrote on AppleLink PE comes to mind > right about this point. Just something I thought you wouldn't mind reading > in the wake of all this Apple II-bashing: > > [Mike Westerfield's article] > I can only say that I _really_ support what Mike said. > I'll believe it when I see it. I'd be really surprised if what Mike suggests, which is what a LOT of people I've talked to suggest, ever happens. The only exception is HyperCard, a color version of which is being developed by Roger Wagner. I saw it at AppleFest; it looked promising. I'd really like to like the GS. But you can see that there are problems with it that can only be solved by Apple. You're sticking by your computer -- that's great. I wish I had your faith in Apple's support of the II line. While Apple's official position is "Apple II forever", there are enough middle (and not-so-middle) level managers who either dislike the II or don't care that the development effort has suffered. Apple is making a HUGE mistake by not supporting the GS better. As far as I'm concerned, Apple has demonstrated that they will not live up to this machine's potential. Every last one of Mike's requests (except maybe firing everyone) is reasonable. I'd love to see a faster GS with bug-free tools and system software. But I'm not holding my breath any more. -- Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4 Claris Corporation \ UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!krazy 415/960-2693 \________________________________________________________ ____________________/ "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!"
kamath@reed.UUCP (Sean Kamath) (03/07/89)
In article <2668@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: >> >>My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED >>an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! >> >>Better yet, Jeremy, since you're at CMU, maybe you can get access >>to a NeXT. Well, sort of. I'd get a //e. That's what I did (I got a second //e rather than a GS). I'm waiting. I can still have a lot of fun with me //e (and now that I have the 65816 option and a meg in one of my //e's, I can have even more fun), so why should I buy a GS. I don't want the Graphics or the Sound. On the other hand, I'm not going to tell someone "don't get a GS" if they want one. It has some very good things going for it. I certainly wouldn't by anything but a Mac ][ with an 80 Meg 18ms drive and 5 megs in it (just happens that's what I use here at work.) And the color monitor. That's a lot of bread. Like, upward of $6000. So why not get a NeXT. Once you've seen one, you'll know why. Unless your a real Mac freak, then you will think it's great because it "brings the power of Unix to the Macintosh environment" or some other garbage. In my opinion, the Mac "environment" is pretty crappy when compared to things like X and SunView. I particularly like SunView, but it lacks portability. Interestingly enough, the op/sys of the next works pretty well, though A) I hear from folks that NeXT will not support NFS in the future, and will supply *server* software only, *not client*. this is just plain boneheaded, and B) the windowing environ dies a lot. I mean a *lot*. I can't stand having a *POWER* button (that's right, button, not switch) right next to the brightness *BUTTON* (Yeah, I know) so that people keep turning the machine off rather than brightenning the display. And to top *that* off, in release .8, you aren't supposed to use the power key (I know, since I managed to really trash an optical drive turning the thing off like this) but instead are supposed to use the very non-approved (except for this release, since the power key isn't working right) method of getting into the NMI monitor (with the magice sequence of command-~) and halting. Really. Reminds me of Sun's Alt1-A. Pretty boneheaded, though I understand you can turn off the sun's death button. Ah, go get a sun. They are really nice and don't have really buggy software, and can be had in the $4000 range. BUT: I don't have $4000, and I *do* have two //e's, and my (insert generic term for woman you live with) has a //c. so I'm gonna have some fun, and I'm damn tired of people telling me I'm a fool. Anyone wanna buy a vax 11/785 for $15,000? Yeah, I know, on the high side, but hey, we're not taking serious offers just yet. And before you go jumping about how cheap that is (if you're not aware of how expensive that it), keep in mind that it take over $10000 to refrigerate the damn thing, and doesn't include service calls. . . Sean Kamath -- UUCP: {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs}!tektronix!reed!kamath CSNET: reed!kamath@Tektronix.CSNET || BITNET: kamath@reed.BITNET ARPA: kamath%reed.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu US Snail: 3934 SE Boise, Portland, OR 97202-3126 (I hate 4 line .sigs!)
nicholaA@moravian.EDU (03/08/89)
Key: >>> = Jeff Erickson >> = me > = Jeff Erickson >>> For legal reasons, I need to spell this out: THESE ARE MY OPINIONS, >>> AND ARE NOT THE OPINIONS, OFFICIAL OR UNOFFICIAL, OF CLARIS OR ITS >>> DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE! In fact, these >>> are about as far from Calris's opinions as you can get. >> I'm also certainly glad about that, too. If everyone at Claris had an >> attitude like you _seem_ to express aobut the IIgs, we'd have a more >> serious problem than we already do, wouldn't we? > Yes, you would. Fortunately for you and other Apple IIgs users, that's not > the case. And for that, we're very happy. For your parent company's continued abuse of apple II users we are not happy. >> A certain article that Mike Westerfield wrote on AppleLink PE comes to mind >> right about this point. Just something I thought you wouldn't mind reading >> in the wake of all this Apple II-bashing: >> >> [Mike Westerfield's article] >> I can only say that I _really_ support what Mike said. >I'll believe it when I see it. I wouldn't mind seeing it, as would alot of II-people, but we rather sadly realize that it won't happen in the near future. > I'd be really surprised if what Mike suggests, which is what a LOT of > people I've talked to suggest , ever happens. The only exception is > HyperCard, a color version of which is being developed by Roger Wagner. > I saw it at AppleFest; it looked promising. > I'd really like to like the GS. But you can see that there are problems > with it that can only be solved by Apple. You're sticking by your > computer -- that's great. I wish I had your faith in Apple's support > of the II line. I don't have a whole lot of faith in "Apple's support of the II line" (should read apple's lack-of support for the II line, but I suppose that's beating a dead horse). I only "stick by my computer" because it just so happens that I can only _afford_ a single computer right now, it's the one I happen to know the most about, and something about it appeals to me. Sure, I suppose if I had alot more money I might go buy something else. I'm in college and am trying to make the best of what I've got. > While Apple's official position is "Apple II forever", there are enough > middle (and not-so-middle) level managers who either dislike the II or > don't care that the development effort has suffered. Apple is making > a HUGE mistake by not supporting the GS better. Amen to that. Maybe someday Apple will wake up and stop screwing around... We can only hope... but maybe by then it will have been to late. > As far as I'm concerned, Apple has demonstrated that they will not > live up to this machine's potential. Every last one of Mike's requests > (except maybe firing everyone) is reasonable. I'd love to see a faster > GS with bug-free tools and system software. But I'm not holding my > breath any more. That's because the machine's potential has _already_ been exceeded hardware-wise. GS/OS and the IIgs Toolbox tax the IIgs system more than anything has _ever_ strained an Apple II in daily use. As for mike's request for firing everyone, I wouldn't mind seeing a little "attitude adjustment" take place at apple... and beyond. andy > -- > Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4 > Claris Corporation \ UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!krazy > 415/960-2693 \________________________________________________________ > ____________________/ "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" ------------- Andy Nicholas CsNET: shrinkit@moravian.edu Box 435, Moravian College InterNET: shrinkit%moravian.edu@relay.cs.net Bethlehem, PA 18018 liberty!batman!shrinkit@sun.com uucp: rutgers!lafcol!lehi3b15!mc70!shrinkit AppleLink PE: ShrinkIt rutgers!liberty!batman!shrinkit Send replies to "shrinkit" as our mailer is case-sensitive.
prl3546@tahoma.UUCP (Philip R. Lindberg) (03/09/89)
From article <2668@uokmax.UUCP>, by cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas): >>Apple pushed GS/OS out before it was ready; likewise with the set >> >>honestly can't say that I expect things to get better. >> >>My personal advice regarding the Apple IIgs is this: if you NEED >>an Apple II, by a IIc+. Otherwise, BUY A MAC!! >> > I have a GS and I am proud of it. I love it very much. Yes, there are > > I still believe that the Apple II line is the most versitale computer > > A very MAD Collin Douglas I also have a GS and I'm proud of it. It serves me very well. It runs all of my //e software, plus all of my new GS software. It is slow, now, but I intend to get a Transwarp GS. Besides, I can't afford a MAC II. +---------------------------------------------------------+ | The Apple //'s will live forever!! | | Phil Lindberg snail mail: 13845 S.E. 131 ST | | Renton, WA 98056 | | UUCP: ..!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!shuksan!tahoma!prl3546 | | Disclaimer: I don't speak for my employer (and I not | | sure they even know I exist....) | +---------------------------------------------------------+