krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) (03/18/89)
From jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness"):
>
> I would hate to go to all that work and read something in MacWeek that
> Apple has canned the Apple //. I think that such a concern is reasonable,
> and I have seen such articles; luckily, they have been denied.
>
When next week's MacWeek comes out, read it. If the rumors I've heard
recently around here are correct, it's going to generate a lot of heat
on comp.sys.apple.
I hate to say this, Jeremy, but I think your nightmare may be coming true.
> I was very worried when someone wrote that many software companies like
> Electronic Arts were abondoning the GS.
>
> Why would they consider this?
Here's some more rain for your parade. Not only have I heard (RUMORS, READ
"UNCONFIRMED") that Activision, Epyx, Electronic Arts, and a few other
Apple II developers are not going to be at AppleFest this spring; but I
have also heard that AppleFest isn't even going to HAPPEN next fall.
Like I said, this is just a rumor. I have no confirmation, and I have no
idea how to look for it. But it's still rather scary.
> My example of Softswitch was to demonstrate what could be done with the
> Apple //GS's hardware. [...]
> Why didn't Apple write something like this or pursue this idea? Especially
> since the idea was inspired by an Apple product "Switcher" that for a time
> was shipped standard with Mac Pluses?
There are no Andy Herzfelds for the GS, that's why. If Herzfeld hadn't been
around, the Mac might be in the same dump the GS is in now.
[Oh Lord. Look at the flames coming. Where'd I leave that asbestos suit?]
> I am under enormous pressure here at CMU to give the machine up, that it is
> a dead machine, that there is no point in developing anything for it. This
> comes from students and salespeople at the computer store that operates out
> of the Apple University Consortium. Many of them do not even know what a
> GS is.... Why?
Because Apple doesn't push AppleII's at universities. The idea (and I've
heard this from several sources) is that as far as education is concerned,
Apple II's are for the K-12 market. College students need Macs, because
(I presume) Apples just aren't powerful enough to fill the needs of the
average college student.
Gee. Quite a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Does the consortium give discounts on Apple II's at all? I don't seem to
recall any mention of the Apple IIgs on Rice's consortium price list.
> The Ensoniq chip is for
> the most part unexplored as a MIDI instrument. Why?
They don't want to get sued by the Beatles? (Oops! Too late!)
> I just want to know why, and then I will shut up. I cannot ignore these
> issues being where I am, and each day without anything new only makes me
> more confused about Apple's faith and intentions. I don't see how these
> concerns are unreasonable. If they are, tell me.
Answer: $$$$ Apple IIs don't make enough money. $$$$
I don't really care why. Internal politics, economics, Jean-louis Gassee's
horoscope, the failure of Woz's US festival, ANYTHING could be the reason.
>I'll< shut up when I see >results< from >Apple<.
On the other hand, it may be too late. c)^K
--
Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4
Claris Corporation \ UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!krazy
415/960-2693 \________________________________________________________
____________________/ "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" -- Krazy Katasd@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (03/19/89)
In article <9098@claris.com> krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) writes: >From jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness"): >>Because Apple doesn't push AppleII's at universities. The idea (and I've >heard this from several sources) is that as far as education is concerned, >Apple II's are for the K-12 market. College students need Macs, because >(I presume) Apples just aren't powerful enough to fill the needs of the >average college student. Yeah, right, and the cow jumped over the moon. I've had a IIgs at college for a year and half now and have never had any any problems with lack of power to do things except run GS/OS Mac-type programs. >Does the consortium give discounts on Apple II's at all? I don't seem to >recall any mention of the Apple IIgs on Rice's consortium price list. Yeah, just gotta sell those Mac's. Who cares if the user might only need all the features a IIc+ or IIe might offer, at considerably less expense. >> The Ensoniq chip is for >> the most part unexplored as a MIDI instrument. Why? >They don't want to get sued by the Beatles? (Oops! Too late!) That lawsuit has got to be one of the absolute first class stupid whining. Sounds lot like the case of some girl who sued the Cracker-Jack's people cuz she didn't get a toy in her box. >> I just want to know why, and then I will shut up. I cannot ignore these >> issues being where I am, and each day without anything new only makes me >> more confused about Apple's faith and intentions. I don't see how these >> concerns are unreasonable. If they are, tell me. >Answer: $$$$ Apple IIs don't make enough money. $$$$ Seeing as how Apple is what it is for one and only one reason, Apple II's, this seems fairly ridiculous. Didn't somebody mention a fairly large sum that the Apple was making from the II's (which is probably going straight into Mac research as we speak). >I don't really care why. Internal politics, economics, Jean-louis Gassee's >horoscope, the failure of Woz's US festival, ANYTHING could be the reason. >>I'll< shut up when I see >results< from >Apple<. >On the other hand, it may be too late. c) Bingo. >>{moved from above} >> I would hate to go to all that work and read something in MacWeek that >> Apple has canned the Apple //. I think that such a concern is reasonable, >> and I have seen such articles; luckily, they have been denied. >> >When next week's MacWeek comes out, read it. If the rumors I've heard >recently around here are correct, it's going to generate a lot of heat >on comp.sys.apple. > >I hate to say this, Jeremy, but I think your nightmare may be coming true. So Keith, Matt, whoever, how about somebody denying this or are you being quiet because this is true? I'm getting damned sick and tired of the silent treatment out of Apple because folks might stop buying the current computer. Hell, people are going to stop buying because more and more it's seeming like these rumors might come true, what with the fact Apple seems to want to dump the whole II line and make everything a Mac. I think any real response out of Apple will do a hell of a lot more good than hurt by slowing Apple sales. It'll say that Apple is dedicated to the computer that made your company, that created all those jobs that have, that made it possible for you to put out a Mac in the first place. I've often heard rumors about new and better Macs. And they've come true. Last rumor I heard about the IIgs was that the IIgs+ was gonna be a major disappointment. So I challenge you to answer the questions before you, is the Apple II gonna die or what? And if you're not in the position to, then tell somebody higher up to do so. These rumors are starting to seem a bit too much like the truth. Keith you once said something about the fact that we couldn't know about all the great things in the works behind closed doors. Seems stuff about what's being worked on for the Mac's keeps coming, but never hear anything about the II's to make me want to invest my faith in the II line. It's time Apple shored up the morale of it's II users. Or Amiga here we come. (I'm sure the Amiga folks would have no qualms with that what so ever) kareth. -- Be excellent to one another!
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (03/19/89)
>So Keith, Matt, whoever, how about somebody denying this or are you being >quiet because this is true? I'm getting damned sick and tired of the >silent treatment out of Apple because folks might stop buying the current >computer. Hell, people are going to stop buying because more and more it's >seeming like these rumors might come true, what with the fact Apple seems >to want to dump the whole II line and make everything a Mac. > Denying what? An article in next week's MacWeek that I haven't even seen? >I think any real response out of Apple will do a hell of a lot more good than >hurt by slowing Apple sales. It'll say that Apple is dedicated to the >computer that made your company, that created all those jobs that have, that >made it possible for you to put out a Mac in the first place. I've often >heard rumors about new and better Macs. And they've come true. Last rumor >I heard about the IIgs was that the IIgs+ was gonna be a major disappointment. > No response about a rumor could do anything other than hurt current sales. If I say "What you want is not coming", you tell all your friends not to buy Apple IIgs computers. If I say "What you want is coming", you tell all your friends to wait until it gets here. In either case, current sales go down the tubes. >So I challenge you to answer the questions before you, is the Apple II gonna >die or what? And if you're not in the position to, then tell somebody >higher up to do so. These rumors are starting to seem a bit too much like >the truth. Keith you once said something about the fact that we couldn't >know about all the great things in the works behind closed doors. Seems >stuff about what's being worked on for the Mac's keeps coming, but never >hear anything about the II's to make me want to invest my faith in the >II line. It's time Apple shored up the morale of it's II users. Or Amiga >here we come. (I'm sure the Amiga folks would have no qualms with that what >so ever) > If the Apple II ever dies, I'd be really surprised. We're not talking about a machine that sold a few thousand, maybe a hundred thousand or so, and was then dropped after a couple of years. We're talking about a family that, at the LAST AppleFest, had an installed base of four and a half MILLION computers. Nearly one out of every ten Apple computers in the world is a IIgs. I think the world would stop rotating before Apple would stop selling any computer that people want to buy, even if something better is available (the IIe is still on the price list; schools keep buying 'em). Don't say it; I can hear it already: "It doesn't do any good to keep selling the Apple II if they're not going to make it better." This may or may not be true; there are a lot of people who'd buy them for the programs already available. But ignoring that case, "improvements" can come in two areas: hardware and system software. The past two system disk releases have seen great improvements in the system software, and I personally believe there's more that can be done. Steve Glass often talks about "tools that take no space and execute in zero time", which sounds like a neat goal if he can pull it off. That would make QuickDraw as fast as Alien Mind, it would mean GS/OS could read disks at 1:1 interleave, it would make printing faster -- I could go on, but I think you can see that new hardware isn't necessary to make things a whole lot better. (That doesn't mean I don't *WANT* new hardware [drool].) So just because you don't see Apple talking about the particular improvements you want to see, doesn't mean they're not in the works. It doesn't mean they are, because Apple obviously can't do everything, but it doesn't mean they're not. When the moment's right, any improvements will be unleashed in all their gory glory. >kareth. ============================================================================== Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." =============================================================================
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (03/19/89)
Jeff, I already am angry at myself remaining with the GS after reading the K-12 Mac special report in MacWeek Feb 12th (I think that is the right date isnt it Murphy?). Why am I doing it? Probably the same reason I have the same job that I had 10 years ago - inertia. Perhaps if all software for the Apple II line dries up then I will be motivated to get a new machine. Or then again, perhaps I will just drop out of home computing all together. I mean, I am on a machine all day a work - why bring it home? The primary use of my GS is telecommunication with you folks here, on ALPE and on CIS anyways - if I get rid of my machine (for almost nothing when the II software DOES dry up) then I may just give up the companionship here and turn into a couch potato ... Can anyone tell that I am not in a great mood this am :-(... -- Larry W. Virden 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 75046,606 (CIS) ; LVirden (ALPE) ; osu-cis!n8emr!lwv (UUCP) osu-cis!n8emr!lwv@TUT.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (INTERNET) The world's not inherited from our parents, but borrowed from our children.
asd@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (03/20/89)
In article <27536@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >Denying what? An article in next week's MacWeek that I haven't even seen? How about when it does? >No response about a rumor could do anything other than hurt current sales. If >I say "What you want is not coming", you tell all your friends not to buy Apple >IIgs computers. If I say "What you want is coming", you tell all your friends >to wait until it gets here. In either case, current sales go down the tubes. Why should I go out and waste my money to create a workable system (right now that means getting a nice hard drive) if it is gonna get dumped? Why should anybody else? Far as if it is coming, I'd probably tell my friends it's coming ya sure, but I seriously doubt that all of a sudden sales are gonna split. Right now Apple is losing supporters which is losing sales, which brings about a loss in support, loss in sales, etc. on and on, bit by bit. If folks KNOW for sure the Apple II line is gonna be supported and that it is going to be VIABLE with the market it has to compete against, Amiga, Atari, Laser, cheap-PC's, then support goes up, sales go up, support, sales, etc, on and on! >If the Apple II ever dies, I'd be really surprised. We're not talking about a >machine that sold a few thousand, maybe a hundred thousand or so, and was then >dropped after a couple of years. We're talking about a family that, at the >LAST AppleFest, had an installed base of four and a half MILLION computers. >Nearly one out of every ten Apple computers in the world is a IIgs. RIGHT!! So why don't we se more support for it? Mac's have been coming outa the cracks all over the place. They're shoved into universities as THE only Apple computer for people. A IIc+ with Appleworks and some telecommuncations software could fit a lot of the bill for what I've seen folks working on around here. Apple push that? they even offer to sell it to universities? Does Apple push the II line around the world? Folks over in Europe don't know what a IIgs is. Right here at Purdue I can take just about anybody who knows what a Mac is, show em my IIgs and they go, "Oh, how much Mac software can ya run on it?", "What's better/worse with this then my SE?", etc. They don't even know that the II's and Mac are TOTALLY different lines of computers. Ya tell em it's and Apple and they think, Mac. Why's that I wonder? Could it be because of all the emphasis on Mac's for anything beyond 12th grade? And if there is an installed base of 4.5+mil for the II's then why the hell aren't we seeing some catering to the II's? The Mac's haven't gotten past 4.5+mil already have they? >I think the world would stop rotating before Apple would stop selling any >computer that people want to buy, even if something better is available (the >IIe is still on the price list; schools keep buying 'em). WHOA! You forgot to mention only K-12 schools buy em. *Sarcasm On* The II's after all hardly powerful enough to handle anything for college students! *Sarcasm Off* Buying Apple II computers for K-12 is fine and dandy but what computer does Apple push to college students to TAKE HOME? What computer are college students most likely to get at a college from Apple and subsequently take with them into their professional lives? thus affecting how businesses buy computers. Hmm, looks like a big Mac circle to me. Although I'm sitting here with a IIgs that I could use to help run a business for me, is that something Apple promotes? Last I recall, they were for Home & Education. >Don't say it; I can hear it already: "It doesn't do any good to keep selling >the Apple II if they're not going to make it better." This may or may not >be true; there are a lot of people who'd buy them for the programs already If support wasn't there from the software/hardware community, I'd never get one no matter how many programs are available. >But ignoring that case, "improvements" can come in two areas: >hardware and system software. [....] >go on, but I think you can see that new hardware isn't necessary to make things >a whole lot better. (That doesn't mean I don't *WANT* new hardware [drool].) Right. I'll agree with you, Apple did do a nice job of coming out with GS/OS even if there may be some bugs. And that would seem to indicate to me that they do support it, but I've had this gs for over 2 years now. Do any of the Mac's go for over two years without an upgrade? >So just because you don't see Apple talking about the particular improvements >you want to see, doesn't mean they're not in the works. It doesn't mean they >are, because Apple obviously can't do everything, but it doesn't mean they're >not. When the moment's right, any improvements will be unleashed in all their >gory glory. It's been 2+ years. I think that might be considered a reasonable time to see some improvement and not just in the system disk. Especially with how much development has come out of the Mac line. I'd like to know how much of profit's earmarked for R&D that came from the II line is going straight into the Mac deptartment. With the number of new Mac's that came out, I'd hardly be surprised to see the II money going there. How about funding only the II R&D ONLY? Mac can take care of itself. If faster 65816 are too unreliable then how about investing in Western Digital to get them more reliable? As I recall, Mensch (?) is working on multi-processing computer- on-a-chip type of thing that if finally brought out could really, and finally, allow us II users to really having something to toot our horns about. Gotta keep the IIgs around long enough to use that tho. I hate having Amiga users go around and snicker at me cuz I bought a IIgs. But they have every right to do so. What have I got to brag about in my machine? Only reason I stay is the money I have tied up in my II+&gs and that I believe, although it's damn hard too, that Apple will eventually come out with something better. And that I believe, if it sticks around long enough, Mensch will come out with that chip and revolutionize a 10+ year old machine and make it parallel processing wonder! Everything I'm seeing says this dream might fail. What I'm asking is for some VISIBLE, honest to goodness, can't be mistaken, type of support! I've seen adds for hiring II programmers. That's a good sign. But still, we got 1) an old IIgs, 2) no emphasis on the II's as anything but Home & Education (and not college cuz we all know the II's are to wimpy for college work!), 3) the statement by Sculley back around the end-beginning? of 88-89? that we would see something the II's in 18 months. I'm all for long-term plans but a YEAR AND A HALF? While I'm sitting here for 3+ years (getting along with my IIgs), folk's I know are porting all kinds of UNIX things to the Amiga, Mac, etc. A guy I know is working on an Amiga network with all the goodies like tcp/ip, rlogin,rsh,etc commands, uucp, etc. Why's he doing it and not me for the Apple? Cuz he has support from Commodore for sure, and he's got the power and tools to do it. If I had the tools for doing such a thing, I might, in anticapation of better hardware. But I'd have to buy all the manuals, get into APDA's developer group so I could be aware of the latest stuff (which isn't financially possible for me), etc. devoting a lot of time and energy to do it. I would, except for school right now, but I want to know WITHOUT a doubt that Apple is supporting the II's, that a great IIgs+ will come out (not just one with more tools in ROM, but with speed, flexibility, etc, enhancements), that the II line isn't heading for a Mac/II integration until finally we only have a Mac-type line. I just want to know for sure! It's great to see another Apple employee, Matt here with us, along with Keith and whoever else. It's great to see adds for II programmers. As soon as I get enough experience, etc, I'm gonna be knocking at your door (breaking it down?) trying to get in. But still there's this 2+ year old gs that coulda bought me several Amiga's with all the stuff I have (just extra drives, printer, joystick) that can't even come close to matching the Amiga's performance. I just want some confirmation of my faith in the line. My IIgs is a great POTENTIAL machine. How about a great KINETIC machine now? Kareth. -- NOTE: Not a flame against Macs or their supporters. I love Mac's also. Wish I had one on my desk. But I'll always be an Apple II addict first and foremost! Disclaimer: These opinions are not only mine but of other IIgs owners I know as well.
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn ) (03/20/89)
In article <930@n8emr.UUCP> lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) writes: >... when the II software DOES dry up ... I don't know about you, but I have more than a bookcase full of Apple II software. No way I'm going to get rid of my Apple II (or some machine capable of running most of that software). I might buy a supplementary system of some other type, but if I'm disgruntled with Apple it sure won't be a Macintosh. Sometimes I think Apple believes that the only choices are Apple II and Macintosh. They're in for a rude awakening.
lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) (03/20/89)
I too have a bookcase full of software, as well as two full of doc, magazines, etc. I have been thinking about what I would buy if I were to decide to get another machine. In fact, over this weekend I talked about the fact that I might not even GET another machine - why waste all that money for a machine, regardless of who makes it, which is going to be obsolete in 6 months or so? Anyways, what I was referring to when I mentioned Apple II software drying up is that typically I consider a machine 'viable' until there is no new software appearing on the commercial market. -- Larry W. Virden 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068 (614) 864-8817 75046,606 (CIS) ; LVirden (ALPE) ; osu-cis!n8emr!lwv (UUCP) osu-cis!n8emr!lwv@TUT.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (INTERNET) The world's not inherited from our parents, but borrowed from our children.
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (03/23/89)
Re: > Date: 18 Mar 89 09:49:06 GMT > From: Jeff Erickson <pnet01!crash!apple.com!claris!krazy> > Organization: Claris Corporation, Mountain View CA > Subject: Why, why, why? >> From jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness"): >> I would hate to go to all that work and read something in MacWeek that >> Apple has canned the Apple //. I think that such a concern is reasonable, > When next week's MacWeek comes out, read it. If the rumors I've heard > recently around here are correct, it's going to generate a lot of heat > on comp.sys.apple. Just in case this supposed article does not make it to me in a timely fashion, I would appreciate someone reposting the message of doom, if in fact it does make it to MacWeek. >> My example of Softswitch was to demonstrate what could be done with the >> Apple //GS's hardware. [...] > There are no Andy Herzfelds for the GS, that's why. If Herzfeld hadn't > been around, the Mac might be in the same dump the GS is in now. > [Oh Lord. Look at the flames coming. Where'd I leave that asbestos suit?] Jeff, can you expand on this analogy -- then we'll talk about flames. :) >> I am under enormous pressure here at CMU to give the machine up, that it is > Because Apple doesn't push AppleII's at universities. The idea (and I've > Gee. Quite a self-fulfilling prophecy. The problem there, as I see it, is that hackers (in general) are a dying breed in the collegiate atmosphere. There are CS majors that I know who have no idea how to do anything outside what they have been taught, and I am talking about upwards of 75 people who I have been involved with in certain projects. More often than not, 'they' are amazed how much an un'learned' person, such as myself, can learn from simply being interested in what one is doing. People like Don Lancaster seem a dying breed in some parts, and quite frankly, the reason that the Apple II does survive is that some of the more ingenious people simply can't afford to by a Mac II with $2000 video cards. Jeremy is a classic example, IMHO. >> The Ensoniq chip is for >> the most part unexplored as a MIDI instrument. Why? > They don't want to get sued by the Beatles? (Oops! Too late!) ----[} Low blow, Jeff! >> I just want to know why, and then I will shut up. I cannot ignore these > Answer: $$$$ Apple IIs don't make enough money. $$$$ > I don't really care why. Internal politics, economics, Jean-louis Gassee's > horoscope, the failure of Woz's US festival, ANYTHING could be the reason. > >I'll< shut up when I see >results< from >Apple<. Sometimes, you just have to sit back and wonder about the humor one can find in a situation. Now, if I were some big conglomerate and I found that a new version of a product (not unlike the //gs :) sold over one billion dollars gross in 1987 I would do my very best to improve this product, look into who purchased the thing, and then make a better version and try to sell it to the target market, at the very least. In a way, the lack of _apparent_ initiative on the part of Apple is humurous. They make a machine that is kin to a mercy product in the eyes of the majority of the market analyst and then the thing goes on to outsell almost all other PC's in its class. Yet, because of the seemingly lack of support from the parent company the machine is dying in the software and third party industries. The only thing that I can figure out is that there must be one helluva number of Apple II loyalists left in the world. But, it is hard to believe that they are going to stay that way forever if the machine does not start coming up to at least average market specs. To my knowledge, there have been no nation wide sales of machines running at such a low speed in the last four years which can compare to the Apple //gs. You want sales (Apple)? Give us, the consumers, what we have been asking for, for almost the past three years, in this machine. > On the other hand, it may be too late. c)^K > -- > Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4 I'm really starting to like you, Jeff! :) Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.COM} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1
bsherm@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Bob Sherman) (03/23/89)
in article <9098@claris.com>, krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) says: > > Here's some more rain for your parade. Not only have I heard (RUMORS, READ > "UNCONFIRMED") that Activision, Epyx, Electronic Arts, and a few other > Apple II developers are not going to be at AppleFest this spring; but I > have also heard that AppleFest isn't even going to HAPPEN next fall. Let me add a little more "rain" on the parade. MDIdeas and TML have also cancelled going to Boston Applefest. Many developers detest the promotors for adding Mac to Applefest. They were willing to pay rent to reach Apple users, but since many Apple users are boycotting because of the addition of MAC to the Applefest, they feel many of the people that pass by their booth will not be interested in their products, hence the cost of each person they reach goes way up. You don't see Apple developers trying to reach an Apple II person at Mac-Expo and they don't want to see Mac Folks at an Applefest.. In addition, TML has removed their support board for all Apple & Mac products from Applelink PE. Need I say more??? As far as the fall Applefest is concerned. Apple has not listed it in their latest listing of coming events in their developer mailings, and the other listed events do go past Sept. The vendors are ticked at the promotors and the users are losing interest as Mac takes over the show.. So the promotors (Cambridge) may have killed their own golden goose, however we should not let ourself be confused by the intentions of the promotor and of Apple. Just because Cambridge is dropping Apple support at Applefest does not mean that Apple has also. -- Internet -- bsherm%umbio@umigw.miami.edu UUCP -- {uunet!gould}!umbio!bsherm Miami's Big Apple 305-948-8000 300/1200 baud 24 hours 8 years online
krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) (03/24/89)
> Just in case this supposed article does not make it to me in a timely > fashion, I would appreciate someone reposting the message of doom, if > in fact it does make it to MacWeek. It did. I did. >>> My example of Softswitch was to demonstrate what could be done with the >>> Apple //GS's hardware. [...] > >> There are no Andy Herzfelds for the GS, that's why. If Herzfeld hadn't >> been around, the Mac might be in the same dump the GS is in now. > >> [Oh Lord. Look at the flames coming. Where'd I leave that asbestos suit?] > > Jeff, can you expand on this analogy -- then we'll talk about flames. :) As far as the Mac is concerned, there have been two REAL hackers, IMHO: Andy Herzfeld and Bill Atkinson. Atkinson, of course, is the author of the original MacPaint, HyperCard, and most of B&W QuickDraw. Herzfeld was around from the beginning of the Mac project. He wrote Switcher, then Juggler (which later became MultiFinder). He wrote an INIT called QuikerGraf (sp?) which doubled the speed of the original 8-bit color QuickDraw on the Mac, after he left Apple. Apple bought it from him and included it in later systems. I've often wondered whether Switcher/MultiFinder was planned or if Herzfeld just DID it. I honestly suspect the latter. Originally, Herzfeld was on the Apple II team, but Jobs pulled him to the Mac. Kinda makes me wonder..... I suspect that there are hackers/programmers with the perseverance and the ability to make the GS multitasking, even if it's only with a Switcher. But it would take a LOT of cooperation with Apple. I know a few people here at Claris who might be able to pull it off. Maybe David Lyons could do it (David? You listening?). >> Apple doesn't push AppleII's at universities. > > The problem there, as I see it, is that hackers (in general) are a dying > breed in the collegiate atmosphere. There are CS majors that I know who > have no idea how to do anything outside what they have been taught, and > I am talking about upwards of 75 people who I have been involved with in > certain projects. More often than not, 'they' are amazed how much an > un'learned' person, such as myself, can learn from simply being interested > in what one is doing. People like Don Lancaster seem a dying breed in > some parts, and quite frankly, the reason that the Apple II does survive > is that some of the more ingenious people simply can't afford to by a > Mac II with $2000 video cards. Jeremy is a classic example, IMHO. > Hmm... I don't know. Most of the people I associated with in my compsci classes were hackers. Most of them ended up working at StyleWare. Scott Lindsey <wombat@claris.com> is the hackerishest person I know. (Who else would put up with the MPWIIgs C compiler/library quirks just to put rogue on the GS, and then rewrite what he can't work around, WITHOUT the benefit of library source?) Hackers aren't gone by any means. [Maybe that's why I'm dissatisfied with the IIgs. I stopped hacking on it and started programming. Hmmm...] I know what you mean, though. I know lots of people for whom programming is "just a job". I think there are too many people in computers just for the money. It's a damn shame that computers are "respected" now; the capitalists have taken over!! > ... In a way, the lack of _apparent_ initiative on the > part of Apple is humurous. They make a machine that is kin to a > mercy product in the eyes of the majority of the market analyst and > then the thing goes on to outsell almost all other PC's in its class. > Yet, because of the seemingly lack of support from the parent company > the machine is dying in the software and third party industries. > The only thing that I can figure out is that there must be one helluva > number of Apple II loyalists left in the world. But, it is hard to > believe that they are going to stay that way forever if the machine > does not start coming up to at least average market specs. Kids, can you say "marketing"? Sher. I knew ya could. >> On the other hand, it may be too late. c)^K > I'm really starting to like you, Jeff! :) Me too. ;-) -- Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4 Claris Corporation \ UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!krazy 415/960-2693 \________________________________________________________ ____________________/ "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" -- Krazy Kat
krazy@claris.com (Jeff Erickson) (03/24/89)
In the recent past, I said this: > As far as the Mac is concerned, there have been two REAL hackers, IMHO: > Andy Herzfeld and Bill Atkinson. Atkinson, of course, is the author of > the original MacPaint, HyperCard, and most of B&W QuickDraw. Herzfeld > was around from the beginning of the Mac project. He wrote Switcher, then > Juggler (which later became MultiFinder). He wrote an INIT called > QuikerGraf (sp?) which doubled the speed of the original 8-bit color > QuickDraw on the Mac, after he left Apple. Apple bought it from him and > included it in later systems. OOPS!!! I've since been corrected on this. Herzfeld wrote "Servant", NOT "Juggler", and none of Servant went into MultiFinder. He also wrote Switcher after he left Apple. My apologies for the misinformation. -- Jeff Erickson \ Internet: krazy@claris.com AppleLink: Erickson4 Claris Corporation \ UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!krazy 415/960-2693 \________________________________________________________ ____________________/ "I'm so heppy I'm mizzabil!" -- Krazy Kat