tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (03/25/89)
Re: > Date: 15 Mar 89 19:03:42 GMT > From: "Mark B. Johnson" <pnet01!crash!apple.com!mjohnson> > Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA > Subject: Re: To Clarify(Re: AppleSupport(wasre:ughh and the GS > Let's not blame all of Apple here. No, Mark, let us blame the idiot appliance users (aka, Maccers). > It is a fact that the way the II is "marketed" is not the way many > of us would like to see it, but this doesn't mean there are not > engineers throughout the company who wouldn't kill to make the GS > the machine of your dreams. There are many people at Apple who > have spent most, if not all, of their time working on and supporting > the II line. There are also people here don't have any idea what > an Apple II is or why it should exist. That is just the way it > happens in a company that is growing the way Apple has in the past > few years, and it is hard to avoid. I agree, and whole-heartedly endorse these self same people who are inside the mill, and have a hand in the direction of the Apple II family. I just want to get those Jobs-minded people to understand that the world is not $8000 based computers. > But the people in Apple do not have the power alone to make the II > what it should be, you, the consumer, do. You are the reason we > are here, and if we don't listen to you then we won't be here for > long. As a consumer, you have to let people know that given the choice, > you'll buy a PC before you'll buy a Macintosh. There are many here > who can't understand why you would want a II or a PC when the Mac > exists, and if YOU don't let them know then they will never understand. I have personally sunk more than $10,000 dollars of my money into my Apple II computers. I feel that this is enough money to show I am interested in the damn things! :) _I_ have personally persuaded a number of people to get Apple II computers, at least a major portion of these are //gs's. I have repeated written letters to Apple stating my opinions. (None answered, though) I have told a number of friends that if the //gs+ does not become a reality I will be buying an Amiga 2500 after September as I have a number of projects that just can't wait any longer than that. A number of my local and international friends agree with me. Question: Why aren't there any people in Apple marketting saying this? Obviously, they ARE the ones that management is listening too, Mark, not you good ole' boys in support and engineering. Why aren't THEY the ones that are telling me that they care about my money? > You've got a powerful voice, but if you don't use it, it won't > do any good. So don't waste it telling us that we are dooming > the II, there are many of us in this company who feel the same > way you do. Rather, use it constructively to let others know > the worth of the II line, use it to push third-party developers > to push the limits of the machine, use it to actively support > those people and companies who stake their existance on the II. > Use it to support the II, not to number its days. The reason that I, and other IMHO, are telling you and the others whom have participated (thank God!) on the net these things is that you are our lifelines to the company, guys. We have no way to know if letters do a whole damn bit of good. Letters, where I have worked, tended to wind up in file 86 if they didn't agree with current management (including marketting). With you, and others in the Apple/Claris set (now Scott, don't have a cow!) we know that at least someone is seeing these things that matter. We have some form of feedback. As leaders in the industry of our computer you should realize that feedback is the basic foundation of a support system -- and you on the net have seen this is a truth, not an idealistic statement. Look at how the entire net jumped when Keith mentioned the resourse manager. It was like a spark of life! As long as the folks who do control the evolution of the ][ family are receptive, we are happy. To us, this has been a long time in the coming, mate. Even with the //gs's release, a number of us knew for a fact that there still were minimal resources of every single aspect being directed towards the //gs. I see this really starting to change. Maybe somethings like the DOD contracts are changing this. Maybe it's something else. Either way, I am extremely happy to see the change. But, please, do not mistake my glea, nor anyone elses, for complacency. We still want every- thing possible to be applied to our choice of computer. > Thank you and good night. > Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson > Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com ^^^^ A really nice person! Honest! :) Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.COM} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (03/26/89)
In article <8903251116.AA09126@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.mil writes: > >> Let's not blame all of Apple here. > >No, Mark, let us blame the idiot appliance users (aka, Maccers). > Careful here, many of us use both machines and are happy with both. Let's not flame the people who purchase Macs because they have made a different choice (or because they have a fatter wallet). >Question: Why aren't there any people in Apple marketting saying > this? Obviously, they ARE the ones that management is > listening too, Mark, not you good ole' boys in support > and engineering. Why aren't THEY the ones that are > telling me that they care about my money? > Probably because _many_ (I'll probably get flamed for this one) of the people in marketing are now just that, marketing people, not computer users who happen to want to market the machine they love. Apple is changing internally, and there are good and bad points to it. Many of the marketing people were not around in the days of the Apple II and may not have the attachment to PEOPLE that I feel Apple once (and hopefully still) stands for. If you stack up your $10,000 to a university or business who could spend many times that over and over again you can see why the machines are marketed like they are (not that I agree with it). Apple is in the business of making money, and to some people here that is the real goal, not changing the world or creating great computers and system software for themselves and their friends. I'm not saying that there are not people in marketing who feel the same as the "good ole' boys (and girls)," but many folks like to keep their jobs and are not going to buck the direction of their bosses, etc. (I could have had a few marketing positions in Apple, but as many others I know feel, "marketing" is a four-letter word and I preferred a more "honest" job -- developer technical support.) > The reason that I, and other IMHO, are telling you and the >others whom have participated (thank God!) on the net these things >is that you are our lifelines to the company, guys. We have no way >to know if letters do a whole damn bit of good. Letters, where I The reason many of us do spend our own time on the public nets is because we too were on the outside and really know the frustration of not knowing if anyone inside is listening. Speaking solely for myself (although I am sure others echo my feelings), we spend the time because we care about Apple as a company, about the machines we produce, and especially about the people, like ourselves, who buy and use them. You can be sure that letters and your comments here get passed up a few levels of management when the situation warrants it, but if you want your thoughts to go directly to the top, then do as others and send letters directly to the people you feel need to hear your point of view. Some do get answered, as a friend of mine from Notre Dame will attest, but no answer doesn't mean they haven't been read, it only means Apple has a *LONG* way to go before we are providing the type of customer satisfaction we keep saying we are so serious about. >should realize that feedback is the basic foundation of a support >system -- and you on the net have seen this is a truth, not an > People do realize the importance of feedback, but sometimes the implementation gets bogged down in bureaucracy, etc. We do listen, but we just can't act as soon as people would like anymore because we are not as small as we once were. > As long as the folks who do control the evolution of the ][ >family are receptive, we are happy. To us, this has been a long >time in the coming, mate. Even with the //gs's release, a number >of us knew for a fact that there still were minimal resources of >every single aspect being directed towards the //gs. I see this >really starting to change. Maybe somethings like the DOD contracts >are changing this. Maybe it's something else. Either way, I am >extremely happy to see the change. But, please, do not mistake >my glea, nor anyone elses, for complacency. We still want every- >thing possible to be applied to our choice of computer. > The ultimate control of the company and its products rests in the dollars of the shareholders and customers. This doesn't mean we don't fight the fights internally, only that the only way to make a company sit up and listen is to hit it where it lives... > ^^^^ >A really nice person! Honest! :) > ^^^^ Todd's lying. That's a mouthful you've endured if you've gotten to this point, and all at a time when we are concerned about traffic volume. Please excuse my verbosity, but working with Matt tends to affect even those of use who once thought ourselves impervious. :-) Just let me clarify that all the statements in this, and other, posts are my personal opinions, and do not reflect the offical opinion or statement of Apple in any way, shape, or form. I do, however, stand behind my opinions... Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (03/26/89)
>(I could have had a few marketing positions in Apple, but as many others I >know feel, "marketing" is a four-letter word and I preferred a more "honest" >job -- developer technical support.) Alas, I can't recall who said "War is too important to be left to generals!" Perhaps marketing (Apple computers at least) is too important to be left to the MBAs. The notion that business and universities are more important because they have big bucks is short-sighted (and possibly wrong). The number of individuals TIMES the little bucks they have may well total more than the businesses and universities (who after all are buying mincomputers, mainframes, and Sun workstations as well as the occasional Macintosh - few indivduals buy even a Sun workstation; though you might sell them an occasional Macintosh). The chilling thing about your explanation is that it reads like the same short-term shortsighted focus on "the bottom line" that has emasculated the steel industry and is threatening the auto industry. From what I've read, once the Mac line is upgraded to 33 MHz 68030's not much thought has been given (really) to whither hence. If the present train of marketing myopia (something most of those marketing MBA's surely have read, but sadly don't seem to have understood) continues, Apple may not be in very good shape when the century turns. Murph Sewall Vaporware? ---> [Gary Larson returns 1/1/90] Prof. of Marketing Sewall@UConnVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {psuvax1 or mcvax }!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] -+- I don't speak for my employer, though I frequently wish that I could (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited) According to the American Facsimile Association, more than half the calls from Japan to the U.S. are fax calls. FAX it to me at: 1-203-486-5246
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (03/27/89)
In article <8903260147.aa09456@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) writes: >Alas, I can't recall who said "War is too important to be left to generals!" > >The chilling thing about your explanation is that it reads like the same >short-term shortsighted focus on "the bottom line" that has emasculated the >steel industry and is threatening the auto industry. From what I've read, >once the Mac line is upgraded to 33 MHz 68030's not much thought has been >given (really) to whither hence. If the present train of marketing myopia >(something most of those marketing MBA's surely have read, but sadly don't >seem to have understood) continues, Apple may not be in very good shape >when the century turns. > You can rest assured the more than just the generals are fighting the battles! One sign of Apple you might consider is all of us who spend time on the nets. People like Dave and Chuq (more Mac oriented) and others, as well as myself, would not have made the move to Apple if we didn't believe. Sure its not the Camelot that we like to imagine, but its got its advantages. In my case at least, as long as I believe in the future of the Apple and the philosophy behind it, I'll be here. But once again, we cannot talk about product direction and all that stuff... Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_