mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (03/20/89)
Kareth, please realize I'm not picking on you. It's just been your messages that I finally hit reply to. If you folks, Apple's customers, think that Apple has been negligent in support and enhancement of the Apple II line, then you should tell Apple. Exactly *how* this should be accomplished is a completely separate topic. I will venture this much, though -- Apple is a large company with a large installed base of customers. I *personally* (see the disclaimer below) believe that it would take a significant amount of letters/emails/phone calls, all arriving to the same place at pretty much the same time to make anyone's jaws drop. There is a tendency among people who fanatically believe in what they do that those who disagree are merely misinformed. I can speak from experience; I feel this way about Apple II File Type Notes. My purpose in them is to publish the file formats of applications in a consistent published format so that a programmer who can understand one note can understand them all. It's a two-foldbattle to get people not only to disclose their formats, but to let me translatethem into File Type Note format, so that I don't have 200 notes out with 200 separate formats. True, publishing a format as the "C" structure it was designed as does add a little clarity - but it's then completely useless to those who don't speak "C". The same principle can apply to Apple in some cases -- a group of extremely talented people who believe what they do is not only their best, but the best possible. Those who disagree just may not understand the situation. If a large number of Apple customers believe that Apple is doing them wrong, then either Apple must change its ways to retain those customers, or Apple must convince those customers that they have not been wronged. Neither will happen if Apple is not aware that there is a large-scale customer satisfaction problem. I would not wish the organization of such a protest/communcation on anyone whom I held to be a friend. Not only would the word have to get out to write letters or send E-mail or telephone on such-and-such a day (form letters tend to be ignored by large companies), the follow-up to make sure it actually happened would be essential. Nothing would hurt any cause more than to have a well- publicized protest effort, only to find when the day arrived that about 200 people were all that participated. It would lead those being protested against (Apple, in this example) to believe that the protests were the work of a very small, very vocal group of people. This, in fact, may be the case - it could be true that the majority of the 4.5 million + Apple II owners *are* satisfied. No one's going to know until someone takes the effort to find out on a large scale. There are many ways this could be done: inCider/A+ could run a survey page and report the results to Apple; the magazine could run a survey page that you tear out, stamp and mail directly to Apple. All those concerned could mail some symbolic object (like a manual cover or an Apple ad) to Apple -- this could go on and on. But if such an effort is well-publicized and gets very little result from those who are supposed to be dissatisfied, it would hurt your case more than not doing anything at all. In case anyone reading this thinks I'm trying to promote trouble at Apple, it's certainly not the case. I do believe that if customer dissatisfaction among Apple II owners is as high as reports on this and other networks would seem to indicate, that someone needs to do something fairly innovative to get this message across to Apple management. And I hope you'll understand that, to keep my involvement with this at only the above-stated level, this is the last I'll write on this topic. ============================================================================== Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." =============================================================================
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (03/20/89)
>I will venture this much, though -- Apple is a large company with a large >installed base of customers. I *personally* (see the disclaimer below) >believe that it would take a significant amount of letters/emails/phone calls, >all arriving to the same place at pretty much the same time to make anyone's >jaws drop. First, as the remainder of your message indicates (between the lines anyway) this approach really isn't practical. Second, any company that needs to be hit between the eyes with a two-by-four to recognize what the market is thinking deserves to see the sales erosion that takes place when consumers do what the do instead of organzing protest campaigns (one by one they take their money elsewhere until they're gone and then the managers who were too smart to pay attention to anyone else find they can't get them back). >There is a tendency among people who fanatically believe in what they do that >those who disagree are merely misinformed. You eventually will find that it doesn't matter whether everyone but you is out of step or not. Just making a better mouse trap will not cause the World to beat a path to your door (it rarely dawns on inventors that mice don't buy mousetraps :-) If you want to make obscene profits you have to KNOW what people want as well as what they should want (and if there's a difference, don't expect them to see it your way without a LOT of effort on your part). Perhaps you should you should tell your fellows about the pedestrian that insisted on the right of way and ended up DEAD RIGHT). >If a large number of Apple customers believe that Apple is doing them wrong, >then either Apple must change its ways to retain those customers, or Apple >must convince those customers that they have not been wronged. Neither will >happen if Apple is not aware that there is a large-scale customer satisfaction >problem. Apple has not heard of consumer research (or just doesn't have enough sense to use it)? In truth an organized "letter campaign" (even from a bunch of computer nuts who have the skills to let their Apple II's "personalize" mass mail) wouldn't present an accurate picture. Apple really needs to know TWO things 1) how many potential customers (the 4.5 million isn't the relevant base - what's relevant are those with the money and the will to purchase again) are discontent, and 2) how much INFLUENCE do the discontented have on the spending decisions of others. The people on this net and on Appleworks-PE are likely to be known among a LARGE circe of friends to be information sources (if you don't believe that call the University of Connecticut Computer Center -- whom I don't work for -- and tell them you have a question about Apple 2's and see who they tell you to call ;-) My recommendations depend very much on what people who call me want to do with a computer, but so far, I haven't been given a situation for which I'd recommend a IIgs. I've recommended, the Mac SE-030, the //c (from 47th Street in NYC), the Laser 128, the Amiga, assorted MS-DOS laptops, even the new portable (20MHz) PS/2 Model 70, but NOT the IIgs. If I'm multiplied (by how many universities are there?), it's NOT good news for Apple now matter what general purpose user surveys or last quarter sales statistics say. >There are many ways this could be done: inCider/A+ could run a survey page Not a good idea. First it doesn't make sense for Apple to let it's market slip away while expecting someone else to do for them what they should be doing for themselves. Second, while InCider (or Nibble or Call-A.P.P.L.E.) subscribers might be more representatives of Apple's potential market than other populations, a "survey page" doesn't meet basic scientific standards. You (me too) are too young to remember the famous magazine poll that predicted Landon in a landslide (1936), but you can look up the outcome (at least you don't recall reading about President Landon in school :-). >it's certainly not the case. I do believe that if customer dissatisfaction >among Apple II owners is as high as reports on this and other networks would >seem to indicate, that someone needs to do something fairly innovative to get >this message across to Apple management. In the long-run customers don't care; they'll simply take their business elsewhere. Hubris cost Henry Ford more than Apple has yet made. The company survived, but it isn't what it might have been. Apple management will eventually discover that the customers aren't working for them. It appears that IBM has been inept enough to present Apple with a major opportunity to grab a substantial chunk of the business market and that Apple has been doing reasonably well at seizing that opportunity. However, that success provides no basis for losing a grip on the (separate) market that built the company in the first place. In spite of all the gnashing of teeth on this net (and LOTS of other places), if Apple produces a (color) Mac SE type computer for less than (a guess - $2500), they probably can draw the bulk of what is (or might be) the IIgs market. It's not clear that that Apple plans to do anything like that in the foreseeable future or that it wouldn't make more sense (economically, and in some other ways) to simply continue developing the II line. In the end, I'm not sentimental. I bought an Apple II because, at the time, it suited my needs better (and for less money) than what IBM had to offer. I'm within sight of a major upgrade to my personal computing. I may buy from Apple and I may not. It rather depends on whether Apple once again does a better job of offering what I need than someone else (that Model 70 portable looks a whale of a lot better than every spec Ive seen for the laptop Mac -- The LapMac appears likely to become Apple's version of the PC "Convertible"). Murph Sewall Vaporware? ---> [Gary Larson returns 1/1/90] Prof. of Marketing Sewall@UConnVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {psuvax1 or mcvax }!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] -+- I don't speak for my employer, though I frequently wish that I could (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited) According to the American Facsimile Association, more than half the calls from Japan to the U.S. are fax calls. FAX it to me at: 1-203-486-5246
mikes@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu (Michael Steele) (03/23/89)
In article <27559@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: > >I will venture this much, though -- Apple is a large company with a large >installed base of customers. I *personally* (see the disclaimer below) >believe that it would take a significant amount of letters/emails/phone calls, >all arriving to the same place at pretty much the same time to make anyone's >jaws drop. > I think we should start a movement to "let" Apple know that we are dissatisfied with their service. Just read the editor's comments in A+ and Incider, all they do is complain with the slowness of the GS. I haven't talked to anyone who is "satisfied" with the GS's speed. I would accept 2.8Mhz if Apple was pushing the technology to the edge. BUT they're not!!! I would be possible (not trivial) for Apple to create a IIGS+ that would outperform the Amiga. And I see the Amiga as the major competitor for the GS $$$. We must be careful not to lay the blame on Matt or Keith, I'm sure they are as frustrated as we are over the GS. They can't change Co. policy, WE CAN. It's called the power of the consumer. I propose that we write a letter or many letters to Sculley. Challenge him to keep his promise to support the Apple II and give him a few "HINTS" on how to do it. Given enough input over a period of time we could influence Apple to make some sort of PUBLIC announcement of commitment, not that a machine "might" be out in a year or two. But this mail drive can't be limited to the people on the net as our numbers are few, we must write to the Mags and post messages ALL OVER Genie, Applelink, Compuserve and in our Users Groups to get the ball rolling. Tell ever Apple II user you know about this drive to let Apple know that we are dissatisfied. >If a large number of Apple customers believe that Apple is doing them wrong, >then either Apple must change its ways to retain those customers, or Apple >must convince those customers that they have not been wronged. Neither will >happen if Apple is not aware that there is a large-scale customer satisfaction >problem. > HA We'llllll LET them Know!!!!! > >============================================================================== >Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome >Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that >AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its >CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, >Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." >UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." >============================================================================= -- Michael Steele mikes@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu mikes@ncsuctix.ncsuvx.ncsu.edu netoprms@ncsuvm.bitnet
George_A._Muller.Henr801B@XEROX.COM (04/07/89)
Matt I have sat here for months reading the mail and trying to understand all the pro's and con's of the subject you did such a great job on discribing. Your right, the is real power in numbers and we have seen that with coffee. sugar. congressial raises and now cable t.v.. But one must be honest and forthright, or all the noise you make will be no different then a screaming child. We tend to ignore them unless there is blood. George
cs472226@umbc5.umbc.edu (David Wood (CS472226)) (04/07/89)
In article <890406-112612-5755@Xerox> George_A._Muller.Henr801B@XEROX.COM writes: > I have sat here for months reading the mail and trying to understand all >the pro's and con's of the subject you did such a great job on discribing. >Your right, the is real power in numbers and we have seen that with coffee. >sugar. congressial raises and now cable t.v.. But one must be honest and >forthright, or all the noise you make will be no different then a screaming >child. We tend to ignore them unless there is blood. > > George While the corporations are considering "What can I do to maximize income and minimize losses," the consumers are thinking "What can I do to get a system with maximum support and software availability without spending a lot of money or supporting companies that have screwed me over in the past?" As a rule, and to support the concept of free trade and consumer decision making, you should NOT support a company that has given you a dirty deal in the past. I had a TRS-80 model 1. Radio Shack is a subsidiary of Tandy. When Radio Hovel decided to abandon the m1 because of a shielding problem, I vowed never to trust Radio Hovel for anything more than batteries or speaker wire. Get a Tandy Computer? No way! With Apple preparing to give up support or development on the II line, where will consumers go? Macintosh? Have you ever heard the parable of the second son who laughed and laughed when the eldest was disowned by his wealthy father? I'm not saying how it ends, but the second son is NOT the one who gets the last laugh. If Apple drops one computer, it could drop others. I am NOT prepared to take that kind of risk on a bad track record. IBM? A.K.A. Information Brings Money? Their old scheme was to sell an orchestrated system, let people buy it, then introduce a new architecture and software completely incompatible with the first. That's what they tried to do with the PS/2, and failed miserably. No, abandoning systems is how they got where they are today. Amiga? I don't know; the software is fair to high quality, and while the operating system seems a little kludgey compared to the likes of the Finder, MultiFinder, or what have you, I'm sure a flood of graphic environment programmers could brush that up in a hurry. And they still support the C-64, which does establish the track record. For a comparison, the corporation will notice the child when the child is cheated, tells his friends, and they all bring sticks and rocks. The corporation will indeed notice the blood-- a green and silver ichor from the corporation's distended pale underbelly. -David Wood I can use PORTAL to get on UseNet? Great! How do I get on PORTAL? Someday... I My Bought a Amiga Macintosh will lead to ===> Cooks! ^ ^