daveharv@pro-novapple.UUCP (System Administrator) (04/07/89)
So... You think you've heard everything.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Category 12, Topic 14 Message 61 Tue Apr 04, 1989 A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 17:29 EDT I recently had a problem with my IIgs. It would periodically crash into the bouncing apple with an "Unclaimed Sound Interrupt 08FF" error. This happened more and more frequently, until it eventually happened so often the machine was completely unusable - about every 10 seconds. It would even do this WHILE the bouncing apple was going (beep again and start the apple over). This happened under GS/OS and ProDOS 8, in any software whatsoever. Luckily, I'm unafraid of the insides of my machine. I figured one of the sound chips, probably the Ensoniq chip, had gone bad. Also luckily, the Ensoniq was socketed, at UL14 right next to the memory expansion card. So, what the heck, I yanked the chip out completely. The machine worked fine without that chip in, though the control panel couldn't be accessed (Unclaimed Sound Interrupt flickered on the screen several times per second), and GS/OS would not run, but all my P8 software worked fine, so I was able to limp along. I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! So I got the number for Shreve Systems in Louisiana and ordered a new Ensoniq chip. For about $55.00 total they Federal Expressed me the chip. I put it in this morning, and the machine works just fine now. This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still can't believe it. ------------ proline: pro-novapple!daveharv uucp: crash!pro-novapple!daveharv arpa: crash!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil Internet: daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com Northern Virginia Apple Users Group >pro-novapple< 703-671-0416/300-2400 baud
ctuel@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Cliff Tuel) (04/08/89)
pnet01!pro-sol!pro-charlotte!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil said... |So... You think you've heard everything.... |----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Category 12, Topic 14 |Message 61 Tue Apr 04, 1989 |A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 17:29 EDT | |I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that |Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the |problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! | |So I got the number for Shreve Systems in Louisiana and ordered a new Ensoniq |chip. For about $55.00 total they Federal Expressed me the chip. I put it in |this morning, and the machine works just fine now. | |This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still |can't believe it. Believe it. The same thing happened to me -- the 65C02 in my //c died. Mr. AuthorizedAppleDealerIdiot said that I needed a new motherboard (something like $150). Upon further interrogation, I learned that the CPU was bad. Picked one up for $7.95 at an electronics store and it worked fine. Then I politely told the dealer to go f__k himself. -- ___________________________ ------------------------- _ . ___ -------------------------- ctuel@polyslo.CalPoly.edu (_ |_ l F F | (_) E |_ ucbvax!voder!polyslo!ctuel -------------------------___________________________--------------------------
Kreme@cup.portal.com (Lewis Kreme Butler) (04/10/89)
Daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com wrote: | |I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that |Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the |problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! | |So I got the number for Shreve Systems in Louisiana and ordered a new Ensoniq |chip. For about $55.00 total they Federal Expressed me the chip. I put it in |this morning, and the machine works just fine now. | |This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still |can't believe it. Hehehe... I had almost the exact same problem with my apple //e. When installing a clock, I accidently broke one of the pins on the CD ROM chip. I thought, well, I can fix it, but once it's broken I will probably have to keep fixing it. So, I called the local apple dealer with part number in hand and said "How much to replace this one chip?" They laughed and said... "$70" I said, "I got it, the EF ROM, the 65C02, and the Character Generator ROM all for 49.95, how can one be $70?" They said, "Well, that's what Apple charges. Nothing we can do about it." Yeah, right. So, I got the chip sodered for $1 (yes, ONE) and pluged it in to my clock. works fine, though I'm scared of pulling it out. So, what's their problem? I mean they should have provided the enhancement free in the first place, and they certainly have no reason to be charging $70 for a chip worth about $2.00. WHat slimeballs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | | You're all coffee drinkers, no tea for | | kreme@cup.portal.com | you! -- Isstvan | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | DISCLAIMER: All comments are the responsibility of a small purple man from | | the area of Rilos. Keep that in mind when considering flames. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ART100@PSUVM.BITNET ("Andy Tefft 862-6728", 814) (04/10/89)
Original note: > >From: Lewis Kreme Butler <portal!cup.portal.com!Kreme@uunet.uu.net> >Daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com wrote: >| >|I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that >|Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the >|problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! >| >|So I got the number for Shreve Systems in Louisiana and ordered a new Ensoniq >|chip. For about $55.00 total they Federal Expressed me the chip. I put it in >|this morning, and the machine works just fine now. >| >|This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still >|can't believe it. > >Hehehe... I had almost the exact same problem with my apple //e. When >installing a clock, I accidently broke one of the pins on the CD ROM chip. >I thought, well, I can fix it, but once it's broken I will probably have >to keep fixing it. So, I called the local apple dealer with part number >in hand and said "How much to replace this one chip?" They laughed and >said... "$70" I said, "I got it, the EF ROM, the 65C02, and the Character >Generator ROM all for 49.95, how can one be $70?" They said, "Well, that's >what Apple charges. Nothing we can do about it." Yeah, right. So, I got >the chip sodered for $1 (yes, ONE) and pluged it in to my clock. works >fine, though I'm scared of pulling it out. > >So, what's their problem? I mean they should have provided the enhancement >free in the first place, and they certainly have no reason to be charging >$70 for a chip worth about $2.00. WHat slimeballs. I wish I'd included the other article along these lines but it's long gone... This type of thing is EXACTLY why I am running my //c with only one drive. I'm pretty sure it's only one chip blown, or maybe a capacitor, something small, but if I take it to a dealer it's going to cost me approximately 10-20 times the actual replacement cost. Only hardware failure I've had on my //e was some of the keyboard switches wore out (the I key and then about 6 months later the closed apple) after about 3 years or so. $15 to fix it, $5 for the switch, $10 for labor. Not bad, considering I couldn't locate the switch and didn't want to worry about soldering it in. But still, $10 for about 5 minutes worth of work... A while ago my uncle gave me a drive, which would spin forever and track but never read or write. He knew from experience which chip was bad (an a/d converter i guess) and got me the chip, $1. plug-n-play. How much would it have cost to get it done at an Apple dealer? I shudder just thinking of it. Don't blame it on Apple though. Everyone knows that electronics are over- priced, but those of us studying to be electrical engineers learn just HOW overpriced they are. Examples: $50 for a serial/parallel converter that can be built for about $10 (we actually built one of these in lab, no handshaking, but that can be taken care of, and it took a line driver, 555 timer, shift register, and a dual one-shot, oh yeah and a teeny transistor) A while ago at a hamfest, 300-baud modem kit for $25, incl. schematics, and this was when 300-baud modems were going for a couple hundred The list goes on and on. Of course, this does tell me why Apple is pushing the Mac - they must get ENORMOUS amounts of money from maintenance, and it's much easier to tell a mac owner 'replace the motherboard' than a //e owner! We can actually SEE the chips inside without voiding our warranties! Actually my only experience with macs has been a little software experience (why should I have to reboot just because there wasn't enough memory to load a file??) but I guess that still applies.
mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) (04/11/89)
In article <8904101252.aa26965@SMOKE.BRL.MIL>, ART100@PSUVM.BITNET ("Andy Tefft 862-6728", 814) writes: > Original note: > > > >From: Lewis Kreme Butler <portal!cup.portal.com!Kreme@uunet.uu.net> > >Daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com wrote: > >| > >|I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that > >|Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the > >|problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! ... > >|This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still > >|can't believe it. > > This type of thing is EXACTLY why I am running my //c with only one drive. > I'm pretty sure it's only one chip blown, or maybe a capacitor, something > small, but if I take it to a dealer it's going to cost me approximately > 10-20 times the actual replacement cost. Well, normally I would defend Apple, but not in this case. I have had my own experience with their service last year. We had a keyboard cable that shorted out (one of the lines came in contact with the ground within the cable) which consequently burned out a fuse in the Apple Desktop Bus circuitry. Now, the Apple-recommended way to replace this fuse is to replace the entire motherboard. This ends up costing somewhere around $450 for the new mother- board and labor. Even when a new fuse would cost about 50 cents and maybe $30 in labor to install it... Granted, this was a Mac II and not an Apple, but the same type of thing applies. To make matters worse, the person in the lab with this keyboard connected it to two other machines, promptly blowing the fuses in these machines as well, before anyone could stop him and tell him what was causing the problem. That "little problem" ended up costing the university about $1500. But the university doesn't know any better, so they thought that was an acceptable price. Such is life... I'll be glad when modularity again becomes the rage in computer design... -Michael -- Michael Niehaus UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!mithomas Apple Student Rep ARPA: mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu Ball State University AppleLink: ST0374 (from UUCP: st0374@applelink.apple.com)
jac@paul.rutgers.edu (J. A. Chandross) (04/11/89)
ART100@PSUVM.BITNET ("Andy Tefft 862-6728", 814)
> A while ago my uncle gave me a drive, which would spin forever and
> track but never read or write. He knew from experience which chip
> was bad (an a/d converter i guess) and got me the chip, $1. plug-n-play.
> How much would it have cost to get it done at an Apple dealer? I
> shudder just thinking of it.
If you symptoms are:
- drive recalibrates
- drive spins forever
- drive clobbers disk
then all you have to do is replace the 74123 (might be a 74125, it's been
a long time since I fixed on) on the Analog board and your drive will work
again. I fixed dozens of drives this way; dealer chargers were $25 per
drive.
Jonathan A. Chandross
Internet: jac@paul.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!paul.rutgers.edu!jacabc@BRL.MIL (Brinton Cooper) (04/11/89)
A number of articles have been posted complaining, rightly I think, about the exhorbitant fees charged by Apple dealers to repair simple things. One young EE student observed that, in his lab studies, he became aware of just how inexpensive some of the needed replacements really are. This is, however, the law of "supply and demand" in all its glory (right, Murph?). In my nearby town, there is one walk-in store where one can have an Apple computer repaired. The local public school system has a "maintenance contractor" on some sort of retainer; I don't know what it costs, surely less than factory retail prices. The only problem is that, half the time, she seems incompetent. The moral of the story: Some of you (us?) bright folks should take up Apple computer repair part-time. It's more interesting than evening TV fare and, even at half the dealer prices, far more profitable. Demand is high; supply is low. Therefore prices are high. You have two choices: complain or cash in! _Brint
shankar@bedrock.SRC.Honeywell.COM (Son of Knuth) (04/12/89)
In article <8904111022.aa15059@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> abc@BRL.MIL (Brinton Cooper) writes: > > [about exorbitant Apple repair prices] > >Demand is high; supply is low. Therefore prices are high. You have two >choices: complain or cash in! Sorry, but the real problem isn't supply-demand - it's Apple's monopoly status. Every single person here could become an Apple repairer, but prices will remain the same, since Apple is the sole supplier for numerous Apple parts, and you need to be an authorized Apple dealer to do any repair (without voiding the warrantee, etc). --- Subash Shankar Honeywell Systems & Research Center voice: (612) 782 7558 US Snail: 3660 Technology Dr., Minneapolis, MN 55418 shankar@src.honeywell.com srcsip!shankar
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (04/12/89)
>The moral of the story: Some of you (us?) bright folks should take up >Apple computer repair part-time. It's more interesting than evening TV >fare and, even at half the dealer prices, far more profitable. We have a local authorized Apple dealer who employs a fellow who's been fixing Apple's since BEFORE the II+. He'll repair rather than replace in instances like those descibed here in recent messages. HOWEVER, the saving isn't that large. In addition to the fact that his hard earned skills are worth something considerable (if it was easy, LOTS of people would be doing it), he has a substantial investment in equipment (both diagnostic and repair) which (no surprise) figures in his fees. Also, you may have noticed in the trade press, Apple is expressing great unhappiness about some (thus far unidentified) dealers selling parts (specifically Macintosh ROM sets) to clone makers (making the clones legal, apparently, by the way). Apple's "swap the WHOLE motherboard" approach may be, in part, a protection of copyright move (explaining at least why it's difficult to replace a single burned out ROM chip -- if dealers stocked the ROM's as a replacement item, it would be even harder to control their use in Atari's, Amigas, Blue Macs, etc.). Murph Sewall Vaporware? ---> [Gary Larson returns 1/1/90] Prof. of Marketing Sewall@UConnVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {psuvax1 or mcvax }!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] (203) 486-5246 [FAX] (203) 486-2489 [PHONE] 41 49N 72 15W [ICBM] -+- I don't speak for my employer, though I frequently wish that I could (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited)
abc@BRL.MIL (Brinton Cooper) (04/13/89)
I don't normally continue these debates, but: Subash Shankar writes: >In article <8904111022.aa15059@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> abc@BRL.MIL (Brinton Cooper) writes: >> >> [about exorbitant Apple repair prices] >> >>Demand is high; supply is low. Therefore prices are high. You have two >>choices: complain or cash in! > >Sorry, but the real problem isn't supply-demand - it's Apple's monopoly >status. Every single person here could become an Apple repairer, but prices >will remain the same, since Apple is the sole supplier for numerous >Apple parts, and you need to be an authorized Apple dealer to do any >repair (without voiding the warrantee, etc). 1. Check with your local economist. I believe that "monopoly status" means "one source of supply, therefore arbitrarily high prices." 2. A significant number of the problems that folks reported to this list were finally solved when those folks obtained parts for themselves from third party suppliers (because the parts were not custom parts) and performed installation themselves. You can even purchase an entire Apple IIe keyboard for about $45 from JDR or Jameco (sorry, don't recall which). Compare that with the price from Apple. 3. What's this about voiding the warranty? I haven't bought a GS, but I seem to recall that the IIe's warranty was about 90 days. After that, you pay. There's no warranty to void. _Brint
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (04/14/89)
>1. Check with your local economist. I believe that "monopoly status" >means "one source of supply, therefore arbitrarily high prices." One source of supply - check. But NOT "arbitrarily high" prices. There's a substitute for ANYTHING (often inconvenient). Even a monopolist's prices are constrained by the price and convenience of subsitutes. And the monopolist that's paying attention recognizes that customers have an option of changing their lifestyle in time to mitigate against prices that are too high. If Apple *really* charges too much, Amiga (to say nothing of "Big Blue" and the dwarfs <clone makers>) sell more computers than they otherwise would. When OPEC quadrupled oil prices in the early 70's consumers suffered in the SHORT run. In the longer run they insullated homes and business, and bought more fuel efficient cars (and opened a lot of new coal mines) among other things that reduced demand and created a World-wide oil glut that's still with us (at peak crude oil spot prices were roughly double what they are today). [I know this ain't "apple2" folks, but a little economic awareness can make you a smarter computer shopper -- depending on what you REALLY need to do with your computer, you may find that always having *last year's* technology is far more economically efficient -- or when a '486 PC for under $10,000 is released I'll finally be able to afford a 25 MHz '386 ;-) ] Murph Sewall Vaporware? ---> [Gary Larson returns 1/1/90] Prof. of Marketing Sewall@UConnVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {psuvax1 or mcvax }!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] (203) 486-5246 [FAX] (203) 486-2489 [PHONE] 41 49N 72 15W [ICBM] -+- I don't speak for my employer, though I frequently wish that I could (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited)
rmk@frog.UUCP (Rick Kelly) (04/19/89)
In article <10061@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU> ctuel@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Cliff Tuel) writes: >pnet01!pro-sol!pro-charlotte!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil said... >|So... You think you've heard everything.... >|----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >|Category 12, Topic 14 >|Message 61 Tue Apr 04, 1989 >|A2.DEAN [Library Boss] at 17:29 EDT >| >|I called my dealer. I called several dealers. Every one of them said that >|Apple would NOT supply a replacement chip. The ONLY way they could fix the >|problem was a new motherboard! $250 for parts and labor! >| >|So I got the number for Shreve Systems in Louisiana and ordered a new Ensoniq >|chip. For about $55.00 total they Federal Expressed me the chip. I put it in >|this morning, and the machine works just fine now. >| >|This goes beyond just DUMB. It's highway robbery on Apple's part. I still >|can't believe it. > > Believe it. The same thing happened to me -- the 65C02 in my > //c died. Mr. AuthorizedAppleDealerIdiot said that I needed > a new motherboard (something like $150). Upon further interrogation, > I learned that the CPU was bad. Picked one up for $7.95 at an > electronics store and it worked fine. Then I politely told the > dealer to go f__k himself. > Many authorized Apple dealers are on board swap plan with Apple. They buy boards from Apple at a set price, and get a refund back for dead boards that they return to Apple. This saves them money on technicians and equipment. Computer stores are gradually turning into the appliance type of store that the retail sector seems to prefer. Rick Kelly Test Engineering Charles River Data Systems 983 Concord Street Framingham, Mass. 01701