mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (05/24/89)
In article <11617@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) writes: > >How about two $30 books titled "Apple //GS Toolbox Reference", vols 1 >& 2? The first release was buggy, and they fixed some and reprinted. >If you happened to buy a copy of the first release, well tough. Shell >another $30 to get the new copy (or $60 to get them both). Now, they >send bug fixes to APDA, and you can get cheap unbound xeroxes for $15 >or something. > >This should not have happened. Something like a programmer's ref >(which was in beta test through APDA for some time) should go to >quality press *without bugs.* It annoys me when I have to shell out >money for bug fixes. I don't mind a hoot to pay for real upgrades, but >publisher's mistakes should be taken up by the publisher - not the >poor dope who bought it too early. > >Dave Whitney A junior in Computer Science at MIT >dcw@athena.mit.edu ...!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!dcw dcw@goldilocks.mit.edu >I wrote Z-Link & BinSCII. Send me bug reports. I use a //GS. Send me Tech Info. >"This is MIT. Collect and 3rd party calls will not be accepted at this number." All right, Dave, we could try it this way - every time we add a new tool, or find a bug in an existing tool, or change the way the tools work to add new or enhanced functionality - we just won't tell anyone. That way your Toolbox Reference set will never become obsolete. The Toolbox and the Manuals were evolving and changing at the same time. We didn't wait until the Toolbox was super-solid and pretty much unchanging (around 3.1, by most accounts) before *starting* to write the Toolbox Reference set - Apple went ahead with them at the same time knowing that most people would want the information, given the caveat that it could change. If you don't want to have to replace beta manuals with final ones, then don't buy beta manuals. You may wait a year or two longer than your competition to start writing programs, but you'll save $50 or so for your effort. My APDAlog (actually, Llew's) shows the _Toolbox Reference Update_ at $30. Your current books aren't "obsoleted"; this new one supplements them. It tells you what changes have been made, what errors we've found, and adds new documentation for four new tools. There will be more coming this summer from APDA to document the 5.0 additions, including TextEdit, the Resource Manager, super controls and the thousands of other enhancements made for 5.0. For those who want the information; I suppose there is a school of thought that says that 5.0 was unnecessary since it makes the existing Toolbox Reference set a little out of date. Developing for a machine that is not dead involves changes to the documentation. It's called "the cost of doing business," and while not cheap, it's far better than being assured nothing in the system is ever going to change again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (05/25/89)
Re: >From: Matt Deatherage <pnet01!crash!apple.com!mattd> >Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA >Subject: Toolbox Reference Errata >In article <11617@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) writes: >> >>How about two $30 books titled "Apple //GS Toolbox Reference", vols 1 >>& 2? The first release was buggy, and they fixed some and reprinted. >>If you happened to buy a copy of the first release, well tough. Shell >>another $30 to get the new copy (or $60 to get them both). Now, they >>send bug fixes to APDA, and you can get cheap unbound xeroxes for $15 >>or something. >> >>This should not have happened. Something like a programmer's ref >>(which was in beta test through APDA for some time) should go to >>quality press *without bugs.* It annoys me when I have to shell out >>money for bug fixes. I don't mind a hoot to pay for real upgrades, but >>publisher's mistakes should be taken up by the publisher - not the >>poor dope who bought it too early. >> >>Dave Whitney A junior in Computer Science at MIT >All right, Dave, we could try it this way - every time we add a new tool, or >find a bug in an existing tool, or change the way the tools work to add new >or enhanced functionality - we just won't tell anyone. That way your Toolbox >Reference set will never become obsolete. A bit of spitefulness, there, Matt. Don't you think? >The Toolbox and the Manuals were evolving and changing at the same time >If you don't want to have to replace beta manuals with final ones, then don't >buy beta manuals. You may wait a year or two longer than your competition to >start writing programs, but you'll save $50 or so for your effort. But, the question that many users and hobbyists (you know, the folks that buy more Apple II computers than appliances :-) put forward is, "Just how do I know that what I buy will be up to current specs?". Also, it is very unorganized to have numerous updated manuals when one could do the job, not to mention that there are a number of us interested in buying the information, but not every update that does not cover all of the previous material. I believe that there is a viable alternative, but I'll get to that later on. >My APDAlog (actually, Llew's) shows the _Toolbox Reference Update_ at $30. >Your current books aren't "obsoleted"; this new one supplements them. It >tells you what changes have been made, what errors we've found, and adds >new documentation for four new tools. There will be more coming this summer >from APDA to document the 5.0 additions, including TextEdit, the Resource >Manager, super controls and the thousands of other enhancements made for 5.0. >For those who want the information; I suppose there is a school of thought >that says that 5.0 was unnecessary since it makes the existing Toolbox >Reference set a little out of date. Not from me!!! But, I would like to suggest that you consider publishing the materials in a format that is easily updated with new materials. I remember the first Amiga manuals that came out. They followed the same drab and hard to use format of hard bound manuals. But, looking at my Unix manuals I see why the later Amiga manuals adopted nearly the same format, with a hard bound manual and large looped rings with a flat side for easy page flipping and reading. Whenever a new update to the Unix manuals comes out all I have to do is order _that_ specific update set of pages and replace the old ones in the manual that are affected. I've noted that a number of different manual sets are now using this format outside of the computer manual society. If you cannot visualize what I am suggesting I think that you could talk to some people at Apple (like chuq@Apple.COM) who are Unix wizards from way back. >Developing for a machine that is not dead involves changes to the >documentation. It's called "the cost of doing business," and while not >cheap, it's far better than being assured nothing in the system is ever >going to change again. >Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Be that as it may, Matt, I think you can agree that David is trying to benifit that Apple programming community through a number of his efforts, but in his current status he is unable to afford a lot of the things that would help him. If things were implemented in a way that would make updates less expensive and more easily compiled (as in specific page insert updates) this would certainly help the majority of people that cannot afford things the way they are now, IMHO. Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.COM} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1
bird@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Walters) (05/25/89)
From article <31468@apple.Apple.COM>, by mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage): > > The Toolbox and the Manuals were evolving and changing at the same time. We > didn't wait until the Toolbox was super-solid and pretty much unchanging > (around 3.1, by most accounts) before *starting* to write the Toolbox > Reference set. > Apple went ahead with them at the same time knowing that most people > would want the information, given the caveat that it could change. > My APDAlog (actually, Llew's) shows the _Toolbox Reference Update_ at $30. > Your current books aren't "obsoleted"; this new one supplements them. There are two points to the above that concern me: 1. Since any reasonable person knows that the documentation is going to change, why is it printed in a hardbound book. Why not print it in ring binder format so corrected/added pages can be inserted? 2. When one gets an update, that means you have to go into the mode where you have to look something up twice. Once in the original book and then once more in the supplements. Given Apple's indexing scheme (each new issue will have the same subject indexed elsewhere unless it has been removed from the index), it can take some time. -- Joe Walters att!ihlpf!bird IHP 1F-240 (312) 416-5356
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (05/26/89)
In article <8586@ihlpf.ATT.COM> bird@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Walters) writes: > >1. Since any reasonable person knows that the documentation is going to > change, why is it printed in a hardbound book. Why not print it in > ring binder format so corrected/added pages can be inserted? > Apparently more people have demonstrated to Apple and Addison-Wesley that they like the "look and feel" of the hardcover version. Enough Macintosh developers have complained that now APDA offers Inside Macintosh in a loose- leaf format, although "no updates are planned at this time." I would suggest you contact the Developer Technical Publications group at Apple, or the product manager in charge of all this (our friend Gary Little) and tell him if you want loose-leaf versions. I imagine they'd make them if they thought they wouldn't lose tons of money on them, but that's just a guess from someone who really doesn't know. >2. When one gets an update, that means you have to go into the > mode where you have to look something up twice. Once in the original > book and then once more in the supplements. Given Apple's indexing > scheme (each new issue will have the same subject indexed elsewhere > unless it has been removed from the index), it can take some time. > There are two ways to pursue documentation updates - produce a "delta" manual listing the changes since the last manual, or reproduce the entire documentation set with new material. The latter is obviously the most convenient for the programmer, but brings back the problem Dave Whitney talked about that everyone has to buy it again, and some people can't afford it. New manuals are best, delta manuals cost less. So far, we've opted for the delta manuals so that the most people can afford them. If you have a differing opinion, I suggest contacting those above who are in a position to take that opinion and do something with it. -- > Joe Walters att!ihlpf!bird > IHP 1F-240 (312) 416-5356 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (05/26/89)
In article <31646@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >There are two ways to pursue documentation updates - produce a "delta" manual >listing the changes since the last manual, or reproduce the entire documentation >set with new material. With looseleaf manuals, the "delta" can (and should) be provided as an "update package", so the user can remove/replace/insert pages in his preexisting document to produce a completely up-to-date edition of it.
dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) (05/30/89)
In article <31468@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >In article <11617@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) writes: >> >>How about two $30 books titled "Apple //GS Toolbox Reference", vols 1 >>& 2? The first release was buggy, and they fixed some and reprinted. >>If you happened to buy a copy of the first release, well tough. Shell >> >>This should not have happened. Something like a programmer's ref >>(which was in beta test through APDA for some time) should go to >>quality press *without bugs.* It annoys me when I have to shell out >>money for bug fixes. >All right, Dave, we could try it this way - every time we add a new tool, or >find a bug in an existing tool, or change the way the tools work to add new >or enhanced functionality - we just won't tell anyone. That way your Toolbox >Reference set will never become obsolete. You're misunderstanding my whining. For a long while, I could only get Vol 2 at my local bookstore. I waited for Vol 1 to appear, and it didn't. I went ahead and bought Vol 2. Just inside the front cover (right on the page with all the disclaimers/etc) it says, "First printing, December 1987." By a remarkable stroke of luck, my part time job here at MIT took me on a trip to Apple Computer. I stayed in Palo Alto and I visited Stanford. Lo and Behold, the bookstore there has Vol 1 for sale. I pick it up and it says, "Second Printing, March 1988." It's then that I see on the net that the first printing had several bugs (like parameters are out of order and other stuff). Corrections were posted by observant users. Not a word from Apple (although DTS was sorely understaffed at the time according to a poster much later). Never was there an offer from Addison Wesley for an update from the first to second printing. I asked an AW-type at a Macworld show what they intended on doing about it. "Buy the new copy," I was told. Hell if I'm going to toss more money for buying too early. It's like buying a replacement car in order to fix the stereo. That's silly. >If you don't want to have to replace beta manuals with final ones, then don't >buy beta manuals. I never bought any beta manuals. I'm not really in a hurry (although I am curious) to learn the GS innards. Other things are taking too much time. I just assumed that a final copy that went to quality press would *at least* be bug-free relative to the current rom/system disk. >My APDAlog (actually, Llew's) shows the _Toolbox Reference Update_ at $30. I bought that. You may have noticed in my original post that I don't mind paying for *updates*. It's the bug fixes I'm charged for that piss me off. >Your current books aren't "obsoleted"; this new one supplements them. It >tells you what changes have been made, what errors we've found, and adds >new documentation for four new tools. There will be more coming this summer >from APDA to document the 5.0 additions, including TextEdit, the Resource >Manager, super controls and the thousands of other enhancements made for 5.0. >For those who want the information; I suppose there is a school of thought that >says that 5.0 was unnecessary since it makes the existing Toolbox Reference >set a little out of date. Believe you me - I am one of the happy ones that 5.0 is on the way! I will buy any toolbox reference updates that appear in the APDAlog. I'm just whining that sneaking an update through (first and second printing) is unfair. It was left to the users to find the problems. On a seperate note, the Mac tech notes can be had on a hypercard stack. That is *most useful*. A couple of 800k disks (or however much it takes up - we have Phil and Dave's Excellent CD) is so much better than keeping a binder. Now, I know the technotes are available as text files, but is there going to be a program to help organize and search through everything? That would be nice. Actually, are the current toolbox refs available as text? Even having it on a hypercard stack would be OK, as some Apple // types can reach a Mac somewhere. Dave Whitney A junior in Computer Science at MIT dcw@athena.mit.edu ...!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!dcw dcw@goldilocks.mit.edu I wrote Z-Link & BinSCII. Send me bug reports. I use a //GS. Send me Tech Info. "This is MIT. Collect and 3rd party calls will not be accepted at this number."
dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) (05/30/89)
In article <11737@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) writes: >In article <31468@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >>My APDAlog (actually, Llew's) shows the _Toolbox Reference Update_ at $30. > >I bought that. You may have noticed in my original post that I don't >mind paying for *updates*. It's the bug fixes I'm charged for that >piss me off. Something just occurred to me. The update costs $30. The hardcover manual (each volume) costs $26.95. I'm paying more for an update than I paid for the original?!?!? You better come up with a good excuse for that! Each manual has about 360 nice sheets (720 pages) - about 7.5 cents per sheet (not including the hardcover), the update has 206 xeroxed pages (not sheets) - about 29 cents per sheet. THAT makes NO sense to me. Dave Whitney A junior in Computer Science at MIT dcw@athena.mit.edu ...!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!dcw dcw@goldilocks.mit.edu I wrote Z-Link & BinSCII. Send me bug reports. I use a //GS. Send me Tech Info. "This is MIT. Collect and 3rd party calls will not be accepted at this number."
dlyons@Apple.COM (David Lyons) (05/31/89)
In article <11737@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dcw@athena.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) writes: [...] >By a remarkable stroke of luck, my part time job here at MIT took me >on a trip to Apple Computer. I stayed in Palo Alto and I visited >Stanford. Lo and Behold, the bookstore there has Vol 1 for sale. I >pick it up and it says, "Second Printing, March 1988." > >It's then that I see on the net that the first printing had several >bugs (like parameters are out of order and other stuff). Corrections >were posted by observant users. Not a word from Apple (although DTS >was sorely understaffed at the time according to a poster much later). Interesting. Actually, I'm not convinced that the 2nd printing was anything other than a 2nd printing (because the 1st one sold out, or whatever). Does anybody know for sure if there are any differences between the two? If there are, that would certainly be handy information for me to have, since we do release technotes with corrections to the reference manuals. FYI, my copies here at work say First Printing. --Dave Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems AppleLink--Apple Edition: DAVE.LYONS | P.O. Box 875 AppleLink--Personal Edition: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
JDA@NIHCU.BITNET (Doug Ashbrook) (05/31/89)
> >I bought that. You may have noticed in my original post that I don't > >mind paying for *updates*. It's the bug fixes I'm charged for that > >piss me off. > > Something just occurred to me. The update costs $30. The hardcover > manual (each volume) costs $26.95. I'm paying more for an update than > I paid for the original?!?!? You better come up with a good excuse for > that! Each manual has about 360 nice sheets (720 pages) - about 7.5 > cents per sheet (not including the hardcover), the update has 206 > xeroxed pages (not sheets) - about 29 cents per sheet. THAT makes NO > sense to me. The difference is that APDA sells the updates and we all know that APDA's prices are (IMHO) a rip-off :-( -------------------------------------------------------------------- J. Douglas Ashbrook (301) 496-5181 BITNET: JDA@NIHCU <-- preferred address INTERNET: JDA@CU.NIH.GOV or jda%nihcu.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu National Institutes of Health, Computer Center, Bethesda, MD 20892 -+- Remember. If some weirdo in a blue suit offers you some MS-DOS, JUST SAY NO!