MSER001@ECNCDC.BITNET (06/08/89)
P-code; for some reason I always equate P with Pascal. I know this is not
what P-code actually is, but it still brings up the Nasty smell of the
tight "type" pascal! I hate to say this...but I really dislike pascal. I
am very glad Apple adopted when it did( due to someone spending hours and
hours setting up a pascal system in apple)...but really hate mixing C and
pascal. It does not really bother me to the point of getting really p.o.'d,
but wonder if Pascal should be taught in Higher education, since this
"teaching" leaks out into the real world. If it had some features that
were good for something other than getting a point across, maybe I could
be shot down. Amiga set up their system under C (arggg C, the nasty demon
of unstructed programming) years ago. What I really like about C is the
less amount of typing....(but not debugging). Oh no...not another = instead
of ==! Oh well, get pissed off and just use && and hope nothing gets through
it. I guess Apple and most other people think: "If they know C, then they
know Pascal. Lets use Pascal." Whats a Begin anyway, other than an over-
stated {.
Just rambling about Higher education, and the MIS managers that dont even
know what a program is...let alone the MBA's. Sometimes I wonder if some
of the Dr's even know what a program is...
srh (it has not been stated that I know what a program is though...)
rambling on again and again. One day I may even say something worthwhilemuller@Alliant.COM (Jim Muller) (06/09/89)
In article <8906080121.aa17507@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> MSER001@ECNCDC.BITNET writes: >P-code; for some reason I always equate P with Pascal. I know this is not >what P-code actually is, but it still brings up the Nasty smell of the >tight "type" pascal! I hate to say this...but I really dislike pascal. 1. I'd think a more significant issue is what has been implemented. "Real" P-systems usually include Pascal, for historical or other reasons. Thus the "association" is natural. 2. The "Nasty smell" of Pascal may not be property of either the P-system or the language. Rather, it may be the result of courses. Alas, Pascal is often taught, in fact as a requirement, to undergraduate C.S. students. It is often taught in large classes, which makes for very dull lectures, and frequently by instructors who have made it their life's work to be as dull and uninspiring as physically possible. I have spent a large part of my 40 years taking classes, and I like Pascal BTW (it is self-taught), yet the Pascal lectures I have seen rank as the absolute worst in *all* my experience (and I have also spent some years teaching, so I know a good lecture from a bad one). Another factor is that the typical C.S. student comes into these classes with some experience in hacking small computers at home or in school. This experience has rarely demanded great discipline or organization, but often *has* involved making limited-resource machines do clever tricks. The result is a programming "style" that does not adapt well to the disiplined world where all variables must be declared and the types must be honored. >I...wonder if Pascal should be taught in Higher education, since this >"teaching" leaks out into the real world. If it had some features that >were good for something other than getting a point across, maybe I could >be shot down. What is it that "leaks" out so badly, other than the feeling of dislike for a language that can be quite organized and easy to understand? Granted, it *was* written to be an educational tool, and thus is maybe more restrictive than a real-world language ought to be. Oh, maybe you mean that if it weren't taught, then people who learn it from some other source (like me, f'rinstance) would like it better, would appreciate its organization better. Is that it? If so, I agree with you. The same can be said for algebra, calculus, history, physics, etc. >Whats a Begin anyway, other than an over-stated {. What's a { anyway, other than an understated BEGIN? One could argue that { is a variant of [, itself a variant of (, and that to be most consistent with algebraic use, something *else* should be used. At least BEGIN is unambiguous. Sorry about the rambling, but your subject line did mention Higher Education. -- - Jim Muller
dlyons@Apple.COM (David Lyons) (06/10/89)
In article <8906080121.aa17507@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> MSER001@ECNCDC.BITNET writes: >P-code; for some reason I always equate P with Pascal. I know this is not >what P-code actually is, but it still brings up the Nasty smell of the >tight "type" pascal! There are *times* when I wish Pascal would just let me do what I want to do without forcing me to make an explicit type cast. But there are also times when I wish C would complain rather than letting me do something extremely stupid. (ANSI C will take care of most of these cases, though.) >[...] >but wonder if Pascal should be taught in Higher education, since this >"teaching" leaks out into the real world. If it had some features that >were good for something other than getting a point across, maybe I could >be shot down. Hmmm...I find Pascal very easy to read and write and also very usable. I wrote DIcEd completely in TML Pascal, for example, and I didn't usually feel I was fighting against the language to do it. >[...] Whats a Begin anyway, other than an over- >stated {. There's pretty much equivalent, although "{"..."}" in C gives you a chance to declare stuff local to a small block of code without breaking it out into a separate function. --Dave Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems AppleLink--Apple Edition: DAVE.LYONS | P.O. Box 875 AppleLink--Personal Edition: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (06/11/89)
Network Comment: to #8579 by pnet01!crash!uicvm.uic.edu!MSER001%ECNCDC.BITNET
> Pascal and C
Actually, they're not all that different. I'm a big Pascal fan (mainly
because that's what I used when learning structured programming). C is a bit
harder to read because it uses more symbols and words (ie. { } vs BEGIN,END)
If you do it right, C can look pretty structured (at least the source I've
seen from fellow programmers looks readable).
If you have a Pascal that lets you use Assembly right in the source (which
kills any portability :-) -- then it can probably do everything C can... well,
almost everything..