jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") (06/26/89)
I read in the June issue of A-2 Central that the new software includes a new hard drive driver that addresses the Apple SCSI card directly as often as is possible. I am looking for a hard drive, and am seriously considering the Inner Drive from applied Ingenuity. It, however, is not "standard" Apple SCSI or even SCSI at all for that matter. Is it up to Applied Ingenuity to supply their own driver for the their device? and will it be likely to perform up to the new system disk's expectations? jeremy mereness ============= jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arpanet) r746jm7e@CMCCVB (vax.... Bitnet)
APTC1%MKVAX1@msus1.BITNET (Verbal masterbation in the body of beauracratic nonsence) (06/26/89)
Here is something I picked up that I thought might interest some people. I
have some more info that I'll send up here in the very near future too. Can't
wait to take a look at this system 5.0.
\`\`\
=============================================================================
======================= the Apple // RoundTable of GEnie. ===================
=============================================================================
Guest : Jim Merritt
: Apple Computer, Inc.
Date : May 16, 1989
=============================================================================
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I would like to welcome our guest for tonight. Jim Merritti
s the Applications and Utilities Manager of the gs/os Development team at
Apple. Most of you have seen his name when using About The Finder under the
Apple menu on System Disk v4.0. Jim is here tonight to discuss the new version
of the //gs System Software, version v5.0. This new version has the capability
of making the //gs run as fast as a Mac SE. But, I will leave the details of
the softwae for Jim to tell. So, without further delay, I would like to
welcome Jim to our RTC, and ask him to make an opening statement.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Thanks very much for that introduction. As Tyler
said, I am manager of Applications and Utilities. We are the people who bring
you Finder, Installer, Advanced Disk Utility, and most recently the Graphic
Control Panel on the //gs System Disk. I came prepared to talk about those
components, but I'll certainly be happy to talk about the system disk in
general, to the limits of my expertise. As far as personal information is
concerned, I've been running the Apple // Applications and Utilities Group
since February of 1988. Before that, I was head of Apple // Developer
Technical Support. I rejoined Apple in 1986 after a hiatus of about two years,
in order to get my hands on a //gs!
In my first incarnation at Apple (1980 to approximately 1984), I was first part
of the Apple /// design and support team, then I worked on the Lisa for a brief
while (actually, on the development system), before "stopping out" to continue
my education and spend a little time studying television and being a DJ on
Rock'n'roll radio. In the midst of all that, I wrote a column for Softalk
called THE PASCAL PATH, which some may remember; and I have been in the
microcomputer industry long enough to remember (and use) Altairs, IMSAI 8080s,
SOL-20s, and even Vector Graphics MXs and Polymorphics 88s! Enough about me.
What's on your mind?
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> Yes, I would like to ask a question I think we'll all want
to hear. Not to put you on the spot, but how long before we get System Disk
v5.0?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> A reminder, no questions are allowed on unannounced
products.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Well, for not putting me on the spot, you certainly
put me on the spot! What Tyler said!
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> System Disk v5.0 isn't unannounced!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> The press release says sometime this summer!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Official Apple position is that the disk will be
shipped during Summer 1989. Beyond that we aren't being specific.
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Will it be available on GEnie like System v3.2?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> As soon as they send it to us, Joel.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> You need a product management type to be sure about
that, but I would think the chances are very good.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> We have a license with Apple for that, Jim.
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> Joel grabbed my second question. I hope that we get it, as
soon as it's released.
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Looks like Dean took my first question, so on to the next.
Are you aware of the undocumented feature of Advanced Disk Utilities that grabs
fairly large amounts of storage on the disk when you partition it? Has there
beenany checking into that, that you know of?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Please be more specific!
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> I just partitioned a 64 meg disk with 2 partitions and now
have two 31 meg volumes.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> No, I am not aware of anything that would steal 2
megs from you. Maybe this is a display problem. Does the Finder say you have
substantially less than 32 meg on each partition? You may want to send in a
bug report to us here at the corporate address, mail stop 27AL. If you are a
developer, you could send EMAIL on any number of services, including corporate
AppleLink.
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> I just did a catalog of the disk and it shows that I have
63488 blocks which works out to being 31.744 meg. Looks like we may be
answering my question. I SWEAR I have figured that one before.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Who's drive are you using?
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> It is a "home brew" ST277N Seagate. It is one like we did for
A2-Central.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Does it look like an Apple SCSI? If not, you may
have difficulties. I would talk to Developer Tech Support about this.
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> I just wanted to say, I've had exactly the same problem. A
65 Meg hard drive. I get one 30 meg partition, one 32 meg partition. I'm
missing some space, here.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> You may have sparing going on (according to a gs/os
jock sitting next to me here). Send us more information.
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Is there some way to keep Advanced Disk Utilities from
formatting the thing when it is fresh? For instance, if you have set
interleave with and other program and don't want it corrupted. I will try to
get more information for you on the other matter of partitions.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Well, Advanced Disk Utilities probably is being
told that the drive isn't "fresh." However, our latest SCSI drivers on v5.0
lets you set some interleave parameters. (This was not possible on v4.0, as
you have noticed.)
<[I'm back] TIM.SWIHART> I've got a 40 meg SCSI at work and it's partitioned
into one 30 and one 11 meg portions. Seems like it's not the software's fault,
per-se.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I want your piece of the pie, Tim!
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Once again, I am waiting for system v5.0, it wouldn't be so
hard if it wasn't so HOT!
<D.DEXHEIMER> We've been reading reports of the disk access speed of gs/os
Version 5 since Applefest, but I haven't heard anyone report on any
complexities of running old P16 programs under Version 5 from a SCSI hard Disk,
just like Tom V's. Will I be able to run old P16 programs under gs/os on my
new home brew hard disk, under the new SCSI drivers on Version 5?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> You SHOULD be able to do so. Backward
compatibility was an important consideration in coming up with v5.0. Let me a
bit stronger in my last statement, I am personally aware of MANY P16 programs
that work just fine; any programs that don't are probably breaking some rules
somewhere.
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> First, You were talking about interleave options.
I have heard that 3.5s will do 1:1. Would you confirm this please. Also, what
is the optimum for a SCSI drive or does that depend on the drive?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Well, with v5.0 you can get the effective SPEED of
1:1 interleave, even though that particular layout is not an option. You can
only write 2:1 (or 4:1), but with scatter-reading, the operating system manages
incoming blocks, so as to give you the equivalent of 1:1 performance. Do you
want further detail?
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Please elaborate on "scatter-reading."
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I guess so, Jim!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Optimum interleave for any SCSI drive varies with
the drive (and with the driver software, too)! Scatter-reading means that we
pull in as much information as we can, whenever we can, keeping track of where
it REALLY belongs in the logical disk map. We "reassemble" that logical map
for you, accept incoming data as a jumble.
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Is this like Track Caching?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> No, there is no double-buffering as in caching
schemes. We put the data directly into your buffer as we read it. So if you
were to see a picture of it, you might see later parts being filled in before
former!
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Ok, I see. Last little bit. The big thing right
now is BOOT SPEED. I heard something about files of some sort being stored in
"resource forks." That sounds like Mac terminology. Can you elaborate on how
this helps speed and if we can expect a HFS Driver sometime?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Resource forks have little if anything to do with
or contribute to boot speed. gs/os is loading all disk-based information,
resource fork or data fork, much faster. As far as boot speed is concerned,
v5.0 loads over twice as much information as v4.0 needed to boot, in just over
the v4.0 time. Not too shabby! We also have a new load format for code files;
this has been dubbed ExpressLoad, and it speeds the loading of code segments
by a stupendous amount. (Do I sound like a marketing guy?)
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> No, marketing only talks about Macs, Jim!
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> What is all of the extra stuff?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> We have more tools (and have added more to the old
tools), resource manager, the Control Panel and CDEVS for it, and many new
Driver files, plus several other subsystems that form some new guts for gs/os.
How specific do you want me to be? This is a very significant operating system
now, if I do say so myself.
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Ok, that's it for me. Someone want to ask about
HFS, so it doesn't look like I took up all of the time myself?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> About HFS and other FSTs. First, to talk specifics
would be to discuss unannounced products. That I cannot do tonight; however,
interest has been very high in such a FST, and many departments at Apple have
been asking the same questions you have been asking about. We've heard
everything, but I really cannot talk about specific plans, release dates, or
any of that kind of stuff.
<[greg ] G.DACOSTA> Could you explain what CDEVS are, and what they'll do?
Also, will gs/os v5.0 be able to run off of a RAM or ROM disk?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> CDEVs are modules for the Control Panel. The
Control Panel shows icons for all the parameter sets you can adjust using it;
each icon corresponds to a separate CDEV, so we have CDEVs for AppleShare,
Sound, Slots, monitor, keyboard, etc. Third parties can add CDEVs to control
aspects of them achine (or of their own peripheral cards) that we have not
addressed. I haven't seen gs/os run from a ROM disk, but it is possible in
theory. We run it from RAM disks all the time.
<[greg ] G.DACOSTA> Thanks!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Okay, Jim, can you tell us about some of the new features,
such as SCROLLING MENUS and what new drivers do we have to look forward to?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> There have been MANY enhancements to the toolbox
and operating system. One item is scrolling menus. Now you can create menus
that are larger than will fit on your screen. You drag the mouse up past the
top or down past the bottom to scroll the contents. Another enhancement is
pop-up menus. These look like little text boxes, but when you click on them,
up pops a range of selections. We have used this feature extensively in the
Finder and Control Panel. There are many new types of buttons, including icon
buttons, which we also use in the Finder and Control Panel. Taskmaster does
more for you, there is a new text-edit tool that can form the basis of a
graphic text editor. I could go on and on; any specific requests?
<[Key_Caps Kid] JOEL.SUMNER> Do these "scrolling menus" automatically do their
thing? Or do we still need Tim Swihart's TWO-APPLES NDA for the NDA menu?
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> And fonts!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Yes, scrolling is automatic. The NDA menu is the
most visible beneficiary.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I also hear that the CDA menu now scrolls, correct?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Yes, the CDA menu scrolls, too!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> So, there is no longer a need for Master CDA, fantastic!
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Is there a maximum number of items in these scrolling menus
(real or effective)?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Good question! I actually don't know the limit,
but I'll tell you that we have probably found the useful limit in implementing
the time CDEV for the Control Panel. We have a menu with 60 items in it and
there is room for plenty more, however something that large begins to tread the
limits of usefulness, in my humble opinion. Also, if you are actually asking
about a limit to NDAs, bear in mind that loaded NDAs occupy memory space, so
you will be constrained in a small-memory system (i.e., < 1 MB).
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> I understand they wrap at the bottom and top, is that correct
I had fonts etc in mind, really.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> That is a totally different story for fonts though, correct?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> I don't think they wrap around, although there may
be an option for doing that which was put into the tool after we wrote all the
stuff for Finder and Control Panel. There are arrows at the top and bottom.
You drag into those regions and the menus scroll.
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Sure liked the idea of wrap around.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Jim, since fonts don't take up memory until they are called
to be used, will the size of the font menu be infinite?
<G.OTT> Can fonts, etc., be kept elsewhere then the boot disk?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> To the best of my knowledge, fonts must still be in
the FONTs subdirectory. I would have to consult the spec for you on that.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Jim, earlier you mentioned new drivers, can you fill us in
on what they are,or is that still nondisclosable?
<[Paul] P.A.DOTY> ImageWriter LQ?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Well, we have totally rewritten the SCSI driver to
be more efficient, and have added a SCSI manager (supervisor driver). There
are better drivers for ImageWriter, LaserWriter, Epson, and MIDI. New drivers
for AppleTalk, ImageWriter LQ, and other drivers. We have improved the CD-ROM
and UniDisk drivers. The 5.25" driver is now on the SYSTEM.DISK, so you don't
have to install it any more.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Any new SCSI device drivers, such as Tape Backup, or Scanner
drivers?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Not on v5.0. Write your friendly Marketing VP or
product management person and DEMAND more drivers. Oh, one more thing, the
driver format is public, so third parties can do drivers for their OWN
products, including tape backup, hard drives, digitizers and scanners, etc.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Yes, I agree, Jim, but I am talking about Apple's hardware!
<[Mark] A2.MARK.C> Is there anyone at Apple we could contact to get the
Hardware specifications, so one of our GEnie/A2-Central programming whizzes
could write such a driver?
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Thank you, Mark!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Contact Developer Technical Support. I know there
are a few folks there who frequent GEnie. If anyone wants to become a
developer, I would contact Developer Programs.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> Does Finder use resources to store it's Icons and if so, are
they in the same format in the resource forks?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> No and no. We are still using the FINDER.ICONS
file and the ICONS directory.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> (Yecch) OK, What about the fonts and desk accessories (or
anything in the system folder for that matter)? Is anything now in resources,
as opposed to what is in version v4.0?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> I agree with the (yecch), but backward
compatibility has its price. The Control Panel makes heavy use of resources.
Most CDEVs are in resource forks, and there is a system.resource file in which
all kinds of commonly-used icons and error messages are stored.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> What about the fonts and DAs, are they (or can they be) in
resource forks?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> We have defined resource formats for code, fonts,
icons, dialogues, etc. And many of the new or improved tool calls allow you to
specify data structures that are taken from resource forks. The main system
itself, for compatibility reasons, though, doesn't make very heavy use of
resources at the present time.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Something for future expansion.
<[Mark] A2.MARK.C> Just to clarify, is it correct to assume that the Finder
will still use FINDER.ICONS, and the Font Manager will still use
*/SYSTEM/FONTS, but an application will be able to have a private Icon, Font,
Window, Dialogue, Font, Menu, etc., as a resource?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Yes. I am a little unsure about the font part of
the question, but I think that is so. All the other structures can be drawn
from private resources, however.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> You mentioned compatibility earlier. Does your experience of
compatible P16 programs include Paintworks? (I figure if Paintworks runs,
ANYTHING will!)
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Paintworks is compatible, except for wanting many
banks of consecutive memory.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> You've noticed that problem too!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> If your v5.0 system is configured to leave ten
banks starting at bank 3 clear, you should have no problem, but that is tricky.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> What are the options available on the new format dialogue in
gs/os? (Interleave, OS, etc.)
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Going on to answer the formatting dialogue
question. Do you mean what new options are there, or how to interpret the
windows? Basically, we provide some interleave choices for our own SCSI
devices.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> Yes, new options, or new choices in old options.
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> The interleave for floppies is still 2:1 or 4:1
(though scatter read makes 2:1 perform as well as 1:1, as mentioned earlier).
You caught me flat-footed on the hard disk interleave question. For SCSIs, I
think 2:1 and 1:1. Yep, that is correct.
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> But, as far as the general format of the dialogue, it remains
unchanged?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Right.
<[AL] A.NEUBURGER> I just wanted to find out if the question pertaining to
Paintworks also pertained to Deluxe Paint // from Electronic Arts?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> I don't have any information on Deluxe Paint,
sorry.
<[Byron Rogers] EBR2> I have a couple of quick questions. (Both on the
pragmatic side!). 1) What general kind of screen speed increase will v5.0 give
us?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> For the kinds of things the majority of
applications want to do (framing rectangles, drawing lines, text, patterns,
opening and closing windows, etc.), you can expect an overall perceived
increase of no less than 3 x over v4.0. Specific speed enhancements to
Quickdraw led to improvements in double-digits. Dragged windows keep up with
your mouse, the Finder in particular is MUCH snappier, etc.
<[Byron Rogers] EBR2> Wow! 2) What kind of disk space is involved in v5.0?
(Still no Hard Disk!) How much of an 800 K disk is eaten by the system?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> Much of it. We are still fiddling with the exact
numbers, so as to provide as much space for third party software as possible.
I can't quote exact figures here.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Okay, we have run out of time. Jim, any closing comments?
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> We hardly talked about the Finder! I think those
with access to AppleShare will find it VERY comfortable to use the //gs. Andwe
have sped it up a bit, partly through our own work, and partly by relying on
improved tools and gs/os enhancements.
<[Lance] LLPROD> Who can afford to dedicate a MAC as a server?
<[The The] MICOL.SYSTEM> Apple!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> You have some Apple // to the death folks here, Jim!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> I'd like to thank everyone for being so great
tonight. It is really good for the soul to hang out with true Apple // fans!
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> Nice to know people like us still WORK for Apple, Jim!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> We have done what we can with System Disk v5.0 to
demonstrate that the //gs is capable of a LOT more than conventional wisdom
allows, and our goal was to produce a system that didn't have to apologize to
ANYONE.
<[AL] A.NEUBURGER> Nice going!
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> That's the spirit!
<[Kev] K.FLYNN> It DOES appear that you have accomplished that.
<[Mark] A2.MARK.C> If everything we've heard about System v5.0 is true, it
sounds like you've done it! Congratulations!
<[Jim Merritt] APPLE.GUEST> The Mac will catch up to us one day.
<[Andy] SHRINKIT> Yeah!
<[AL] A.NEUBURGER> Hooray!
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Thanks for coming Jim, and especially for staying this late!
BTW, is Finder better now? Come back ANYTIME! And thanks for the job on v5.0!
<[ Dean ] A2.DEAN> Boy, he knows how to please a crowd!
<[Tom V] OA.VAN> Jim Merritt for president of Apple!
<[Mark] A2.MARK.C> OR at least Apple Marketing.
<[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I would like to thank Jim Merritt for being our guest
tonight on GEnie. And wish him continued success in getting this system
software to market!
Next week, our guest will be Paul Pinella, editor in chief of the //gs Buyers'
Guide.
Until then, stay well and have fun on GEnie.
============================= End of transcript =============================
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Hope you enjoyed..."APTC1%MKVAX1@MSUS1.BITNET"mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (06/27/89)
Network Comment: to #9007 by pnet01!crash!andrew.cmu.edu!jm7e+ I've got a 40meg InnerDrive at the office. It comes with a GS/OS Driver which does work with System 5.0.. The driver is just like any other driver for GS/OS.