jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") (07/07/89)
Thi issue may have been touched upon before, but as the time grows nigh that I will be buying a hard drive, I've gotta ask it again. What slots are prohibited for a device like a hard drive? slot 1 is printer, 2 is modem, 3 is 80 columns, 4 is mouse, 5 is smart port, 6 is 5.25 drives, and 7 is appletalk. What's left? I will be using appletalk, so conceivably both #1 and #7 are out. #6 and #5 are used by my floppies. So what is the deal with #3 and #4? Is the ADB mouse dead if a card is in slot 4? and does Appletalk really lock out two slots? I want to ad a Stereo/MIDI card on top of the hard drive, and if I go for a 20 meg internal (neither AE or Inner Drive use SCSI) I would like to add another SCSI with more space later on. What to do? To add to the confusion, AE hinted at a phantom slot feature in their latest ads! jeremy mereness ============= jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arpanet) r746jm7e@CMCCVB (vax.... Bitnet)
henryh@pro-europa.cts.com (Henry Hwong) (07/07/89)
Comment to message from: pnet01!crash!andrew.cmu.edu!jm7e+ (Jeremy G. Mereness)
The problem with Apple II slots is that they are "hardwired" and not smart.
Each card has its own page of memory for a driver, and it isn't relocatable
(at least not very easy to be relocated without tricks) This is in contrast
to, say, an IBM, where they use things like DIP switches to locate the device
driver.
Phantom slots is where a card can somehow (I really don't know how this works)
locate its driver (or fool the machine into going to it) at those pages of
memory.
This "absoluteness" is the reason why there are "traditional" places to put
cards (the 5.25 drive into slot 6, the 80 column card in slot 3, etc).
Sounds like you may have a problem, Jeremy if you can't find a hard drive with
phantom slot assigning...
(now if those rumors about a GS+...nah)
-Henry
----
UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.com}
...!crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-europa!henryh
ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-europa!henryh@nosc.mil
INET: henryh@pro-europa.cts.com - BITNET: henryh%pro-europa.cts.com@nosc.miljeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut) (07/08/89)
Jeremy Mereness writes: >What slots are prohibited for a device like a hard drive? >slot 1 is printer, 2 is modem, 3 is 80 columns, 4 is mouse, 5 is smart >port, 6 is 5.25 drives, and 7 is appletalk. What's left? >I will be using appletalk, so conceivably both #1 and #7 are out. #6 and >#5 are used by my floppies. >So what is the deal with #3 and #4? Is the ADB mouse dead if a card is >in slot 4? and does Appletalk really lock out two slots? I want to ad a >Stereo/MIDI card on top of the hard drive, and if I go for a 20 meg >internal (neither AE or Inner Drive use SCSI) I would like to add >another SCSI with more space later on. > >jeremy mereness Solution: buy another IIgs. %^) I'm pretty sure AppleTalk takes two slots. At work, I have a IIgs connected to an AppleTalk ImageWriter using Port 2/Slot 7 and a serial LaserJet connected to Port 1. I have a 512K slinky card in Slot 4, and I can't use the mouse. I had first tried putting the RAM card in Slot 2, since the Control Panel was set to Your Card for that slot, but it could not access the RAM disk in Slot 2 after printing over AppleTalk. Rebooting does get the RAM disk back, but GS/OS does need to be reloaded to re-init AppleTalk. (This is a real slow pain.. does anyone know how to get AppleTalk initialized without booting GS/OS and going through Chooser II?) Also, you can't put a hard disk in Slot 3, as programs that use the 80-column firmware in that slot will break. (Try setting Slot 3 to Your Card, go into BASIC, and do a PR#3.) To use a printer, modem, 80-col, mouse, SmartPort, disk port, AppleTalk, stereo card, OKS Kache card, digitizer, Video Overlay Card, and all of the other goodies, you'll need 11+ slots and 3 or more ports. -- jeffj@pro-avalon UUCP: crash!pro-nsfmat!pro-avalon!jeffj ARPA: crash!pro-nsfmat!pro-avalon!jeffj@nosc.mil INET: jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com
dlyons@Apple.COM (David Lyons) (07/08/89)
In article <8907071717.AA01377@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-europa!henryh@nosc.mil writes: >The problem with Apple II slots is that they are "hardwired" and not smart. >Each card has its own page of memory for a driver, and it isn't relocatable >(at least not very easy to be relocated without tricks) [...] WHAT isn't relocatable? The memory assigned to slot N? If it was, where would you relocate it to, and when and why? >Phantom slots is where a card can somehow (I really don't know how this works) >locate its driver (or fool the machine into going to it) at those pages of >memory. Yeah. It just decodes the address lines directly and responds when it sees the address range it's looking for (instead of responding when it sees the line on its particular slot tell it to). >This "absoluteness" is the reason why there are "traditional" places to put >cards (the 5.25 drive into slot 6, the 80 column card in slot 3, etc). Nope; there are standards for the convenience (or sometimes laziness) of software. Most peripheral cards work fine in any slot. --Dave Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems AppleLink--Apple Edition: DAVE.LYONS | P.O. Box 875 AppleLink--Personal Edition: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (07/11/89)
I've seen slot switchers out for IIes in the past, wouldn't they work on
a IIgs? A slot switcher is a device that plugs into one of the slots, and has
multiple slots inside it. There's a switch that switches the internal slots
of the switcher to be active: as if it were in the CPU.
It's been a long time since I think I've seen them. I may be wrong.
But that's what I plan to do if I overflow.
Ken
krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edubrianw@microsoft.UUCP (Brian Willoughby) (07/14/89)
In article <8907071717.AA01377@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-europa!henryh@nosc.mil writes: >The problem with Apple II slots is that they are "hardwired" and not smart. >Each card has its own page of memory for a driver, and it isn't relocatable >(at least not very easy to be relocated without tricks) This is in contrast >to, say, an IBM, where they use things like DIP switches to locate the device >driver. > The Apple II card drivers ARE relocatable, no tricks. There is nothing in the software which comes ON an Apple II peripheral (i.e. in the firmware ROM) that prevents that card from being used in any slot. The only thing "hardwired" is the brain of the programmer of the software you chose to use with that peripheral, who decided to assume a slot for a particular device, instead of letting the user select it in some kind of configuration program. Not every IBM card has DIP switches. Most that do don't have very many options about where in the address space to locate that card. The result is that if your program doesn't know where to find the hardware (it can be anywhere in a 64K I/O space) then it won't work. Also, I haven't found many IBM cards that can be doubled up in a PC. I know you can't put both an EGA and a VGA in the IBM, even if all your slots are empty. That's what I call hardcoding! If you wanted to, you could plug four VIDEX 80 column cards into your Apple and send output to them all, as well as to your printer and the built-in 40 column screen. All you have to do is follow Apple's guidelines for programming peripherals. >Phantom slots is where a card can somehow (I really don't know how this works) >locate its driver (or fool the machine into going to it) at those pages of >memory. > Apple II "slotness" is there to save hardware and make address decoding easier and cheaper. Nothing in the Apple bus prevents full decoding of the address bus. BTW, that's how you do phantom slots: decode the address bus. Ever wonder why IBM cards are so much larger than an equivalent Apple II card? IBM card designers are forced to do full decoding on every card, resulting in redundant, heat-producing hardware on the cards when it belongs on the motherboard. >This "absoluteness" is the reason why there are "traditional" places to put >cards (the 5.25 drive into slot 6, the 80 column card in slot 3, etc). > >-Henry >---- The "traditional" places came about simply so that you wouldn't have to spend so much time setting the software to find each of your cards. Most software defaults to looking for a card in the standard slot, but should allow the owner to change that. Eventually, coders stopped allowing configurable code (which does save them a little work, like writing a relocation program to reconfigure the addresses if they didn't use indexed addressing like Apple recommends). There are also "traditional" places in the IBM I/O address space (256 bytes direct, 64K indirect) for common IBM cards. This is why you can't have two of anything in an IBM (unless you count COM1 and COM2 as separate). If a lazy Apple II programmer assumes that the disk will be in slot 6, then that code won't work if the drive is in another slot. If a lazy IBM programmer assumes that the DIP switches are set differently than you have them, then the software won't realize that you have the hardware. As you can probably tell, I hate it when someone who doesn't know the REAL reason why he is having trouble with his Apple starts blaming the computer architecture and not the programmer of the piece-of-junk software that is at fault. Brian Willoughby UseNet/UUCP ...!{sun!uw-beaver!uunet}!microsoft!brianw Bitnet microsoft!brianw@Sun.COM brianw@microsoft.UUCP
kodali@portia.Stanford.EDU (VAS KODALI) (07/15/89)
>In article <8907071717.AA01377@crash.cts.com> pnet01!pro-nsfmat!pro-europa!henryh@nosc.mil writes: > >The "traditional" places came about simply so that you wouldn't have to >spend so much time setting the software to find each of your cards. Most >software defaults to looking for a card in the standard slot, but should >allow the owner to change that. Eventually, coders stopped allowing >configurable code (which does save them a little work, like writing a >relocation program to reconfigure the addresses if they didn't use indexed >addressing like Apple recommends). > >If a lazy Apple II programmer assumes that the disk will be in slot 6, >then that code won't work if the drive is in another slot. > In an addendum to this - I was called in one time by the teacher at the local high school, who wanted to know why certain programs wouldn't work on certain Apples. (I think the programs were Print Shop and/or Karateka) Since both programs are copy-protected, I naturally assumed that something simple, like drive speed was off, or they needed cleaning. After spending two hours cleaning, adjusting, and being thoughrally (sp) mystified, I popped the cover on the //e and took a look inside... Lo and behold, the drive controller card was in slot 5! Putting the card into slot 6 fixed all the problems. Later on, I went back and did a "boot-code trace" on the programs - turned out that the loader (custom) was hard-coded for slot 6. Nasty, nasty, nasty. >Brian Willoughby >UseNet/UUCP ...!{sun!uw-beaver!uunet}!microsoft!brianw >Bitnet microsoft!brianw@Sun.COM > brianw@microsoft.UUCP Chan Wilson kodali@portia.stanford.edu or octopus!chan@apple.com
HHWON00@RICE.BITNET (07/15/89)
Hey! Where did that come from? Since when did my post about Apple slots
warrant a personal attack? I NEVER EVER BLAMED APPLE for their design, just
talking about what I've seen in my 9 years with my old II+ and IIgs. Simple
as that. I never ever said I was a super hardware geek who knew the inside and
out of my computer like the back of my hand. I am not (nor have I ever)
complained about the computer architecture in my post, did I?
One thing *I* hate is some of the pompous remarks made without basis, Brian
Willoughby.
-HenryH (HHWON00@RICE)brianw@microsoft.UUCP (Brian Willoughby) (07/16/89)
In article <1162HHWON00@RICE> HHWON00@RICE.BITNET writes: >Hey! Where did that come from? Since when did my post about Apple slots >warrant a personal attack? I NEVER EVER BLAMED APPLE for their design, just >talking about what I've seen in my 9 years with my old II+ and IIgs. Simple >as that. I never ever said I was a super hardware geek who knew the inside and >out of my computer like the back of my hand. I am not (nor have I ever) >complained about the computer architecture in my post, did I? > >One thing *I* hate is some of the pompous remarks made without basis, Brian >Willoughby. > -HenryH (HHWON00@RICE) I wouldn't have posted this to the net, but since it is an apology of sorts I wanted the net to hear it... I am sorry if anything I typed sounded like a personal attack. I don't know how, when or why you formed your opinions about the Apple II, nor do I care. But when you choose to make a statement worldwide about computer hardware, you had better be prepared to hear from "the super hardware geeks". You might not have said that you know the Apple insides like the back of your hand, but that didn't stop you from describing them to the net world. Perhaps you don't realize how many people are listening? In my opinion, the purpose of comp.sys.apple (or Info-Apple), or of the UseNet service in general, is making information widespread. I feel that correcting any inconsistencies in what is posted here is more important than just the two people involved in the original and the followup postings. One has to consider the worldwide readership and any difficulties they might have due to false information. Perhaps I was worried too much about the subject at hand, and not the feelings of the original poster. The intention of my post was not against you, but the various programmers who have limited the use of Apple peripherals. Upon reviewing my post, the only phrase I see as a personal remark against you was the final one stating that you didn't know the reason for the limited selection of slot locations for various cards. I do apologize for my hostility, since at least one person (namely you) took it as directed against you. I do not, however, retract my opinion that you do not know what you are talking about, and should use better judgement in what you choose to state as fact in your posts. As evidence: >The problem with Apple II slots is that they are "hardwired" and not smart. Not true. I wanted to point out that peripheral software written to Apple's specs is not limited by the Apple II slot architecture. >Each card has its own page of memory for a driver, and it isn't relocatable >(at least not very easy to be relocated without tricks) This is in contrast >to, say, an IBM, where they use things like DIP switches to locate the device >driver. Not true, the Apple cards are relocated whenever you plug them into a new slot, automatically, and without any chance of the user accidently selecting a DIP switch option which conflicts with a card in another slot (which IS possible with an IBM). The obvious exception to this is that a card with phantom slot capabilities can conflict with a normal one. >This "absoluteness" is the reason why there are "traditional" places to put >cards (the 5.25 drive into slot 6, the 80 column card in slot 3, etc). Not true. Again, you have witnessed the behavior, but are clueless as to the real cause of the problem. Unless you like to see your name in lights (i.e. at the header of a UseNet posting), I see no value in your posting other than the fact that it has brought the net's attention to an old problem. If you weren't complaining about the Apple's architecture, then your mistake was to note a problem where there isn't one. Or at least not a problem for the reasons you stated :-) In your nine years of II+ and //gs use, you may have experienced troubles, but it does no good to post an erroneous set of assumptions about them to this group. In fact, it is actually harmful, IMHO, to broadcast your misconceptions, because they might influence a potential purchaser of an Apple CPU to choose the competition. If more people purchase Apple IIs, then the prices of hardware will drop and the software support will increase. I would say that it is useful to the net to point out that there are problems with *some* of the software out there, and perhaps even put pressure on developers to correct their code, but your post seems to indicate the hardware as the problem. My first followup attempted to set the record straight by revealing the source of your problems. I didn't dimiss your issue, I actually supported it by acknowledging that there is a problem. I write almost all of the software I use, and by following Apple guidelines I have no limitations on locating peripheral cards. Even if you aren't a programmer, you can be selective and use only software which doesn't use hard-coded peripheral addressing. Now if I knew nothing about the Apple II, and was considering it for its expandability (something similarly priced Macintoshes don't offer), I might read your post and assume that the Apple was not well suited to expansion. Is that what you intended? Come on, lets all (I'm speaking of no one in particular) stop bashing the Apple II, spreading false rumors about its demise, and concentrate on keeping everyone well informed of the facts. And if any of us make an error in a posting, well we'll just chalk it up to the learning process, instead of taking a correction as a pompous slight on personal character. Pretty simple, huh? Brian Willoughby UUCP: ...!{tikal, sun, uunet, elwood}!microsoft!brianw InterNet: microsoft!brianw@uunet.UU.NET or: microsoft!brianw@Sun.COM Bitnet brianw@microsoft.UUCP