dcanfield@yvax.byu.edu (06/26/89)
Being from Utah affords many oppurtunities; one of the least of which being the chance to visit WordPerfect Corp last week and take a look at some of their products. I must admit that in the IBM market they are very impressive. Their products are extremely powerful and I find them fairly easy to use. While there I thought I would check out the apple products division and see what was there. The MAC group is working hard on their product and I think that in the next little while they are going to give Word a run for their money. I was however, extremely disappointed with the II series product. One of the support people showed me WordPerfect on the GS, talk about slow to come up. It took almost as long to boot it as it does to boot AppleworksGS, and it isn't near the program that Appleworks is. This leads to what I thought most disappointing. The program is just a word processor and nothing more. It does not use what the GS is known for - graphics and sound - at all. I looked through the menus a little and to be honest, I don't know why anyone would ever buy and use WordPerfect instead of Appleworks. The one big advantage all WP products have, however, is that the data files can be transfered between machines (apple to ibm) with great ease. Anyway, I was just curious if there was anyone out there who is using WordPerfect on the AppleII series and what they like about it. I would be curious to hear your comparisons between it and Appleworks. Even between it and the older appleworks, not just appleworksGS. You can post to the net or send me email at the below adresses. Dan Dcanfield@byuvax Danc@yvax.edu
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (06/28/89)
To my knowledge, WP has not updated their product to take advantage of 4.0 and 5.0 improvements in the system software. But I've talked to them, and they are an *extremely* talented bunch of guys in Utah working on the IIgs. I'd keep my eye on Orem if I were you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that AppleLink PE: Matt DTS GEnie: AIIDTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its CompuServe: 76703,3030 | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, Usenet: mattd@apple.com | have any opinion on any subject." UUCP: (other stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
winch@hpihoah.HP.COM (Bill Winchester) (06/28/89)
The following note was posted by Morgan Davis last year. It describes how I
feel about Appleworks vs Wordperfect very well. If you use a wordprocessor
to write any LONG documents (books, papers, etc), Wordperfect is, IMHO, the
better product currently.
Morgan I hope you don't mind me reposting this!
Bill Winchester
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's been mention of WordPerfect for the Apple being really incredulously
slow -- and it's true. It's a dog. However, I'm talking about the IIe
version.
On the other hand, the IIGS version is very usable, and it doesn't take 7
seconds to go from the top of the page to the bottom, even though the GS
version uses the super hi-res mode of the computer.
I won't begin to describe the merits of WordPerfect GS, but I'll say this much
about it in comparison to AppleWorks, which the Apple world is enthralled by.
WordPrefect has WordPerfect Corporation behind it. AppleWorks has (nope, not
Apple, but) Claris behind it. Think we'll see much support there? Think
AppleWorks will become the writer's tool that we've all hoped for? Think
again.
Last year I wrote a 640 page book (Mastering the Apple IIGS Toolbox) using
AppleWorks. My co-author, Dan Gookin, used his IBM PC with WordPerfect.
Converting chapters between WP and AW was a pain, but it could be done at the
expense of losing some formatting features in both directions. I ended up
cursing AppleWorks a lot, simply because it just isn't a writer's tool. Not in
the least.
To be fair, I suppose I was actually disheartened by the entire Apple II word
processing industry as a whole, and saddened that we've been held hostage by
this five-year-old program, AppleWorks, as the only game in town. Imagine:
five years of AppleWorks, while everyone else has benefitted from new software
advances. Fortunately, those who embraced AppleWorks as the end-all/be-all
word processor weren't as eager to latch onto the advent of floppy disk drives
after their cassette tape predecessors. It's frightening to think that we
might never have been able to explore the miracle of massive storage systems,
and perhaps never would have left those weaning years on DOS 3.3. But all is
not so cheery. If your senses are keen enough, perhaps you, too, can detect
that pungent aroma of stagnation wafting by your computer's screen.
>SIDEBAR>
And aren't we lucky? Last month's A+ Magazine (Ziff/Davis) felt we were due
for Yet Another Cover Story about AppleWorks. I just love getting A+'s in the
mail and seeing 'APPLEWORKS!!!' splashed all over the front -- as if the
program had just come out yesterday. Yawn.
<<
And then it was time for me to move on, when the publisher said, "Good job on
the first book, now do another one." Shudder to think that I'd go through all
that again. By that time, however, this new beast, WordPerfect GS 2.0, was
available. And, lo, the clouds burst open to let a wonderous ray of hope
beam forth! Well, isn't that ... *extra special* ?!?
Suddenly, word processor and writer were finally working together, instead of
one constantly against the other. WordPerfect isn't as fast as AppleWorks,
but it doesn't need to be. (It's a good thing AppleWorks is as fast as it is
-- the less time I had to screw with it, the better). WordPerfect also made
sharing files between my IIGS and my co-author's IBM PC a non-problem. The
file format is totally compatible, and you don't have to do any file
conversion at all, in either direction. All formatting codes are supported
and retained. And this is nothing really to boast about when compared to the
rest of the environment. It was a big deal to us, though.
Yeah, this is a testimonial. You can take my word or leave it. But remember
that I agonized through 640 pages, jealous all the while of what the rest of
the world had at its disposal. The second volume of Mastering the Apple IIGS
Toolbox (due out this summer) wasn't nearly as painful to write. And, I wasn't
about to run out and buy an IBM PC. After all, we are so quick to emplore
that the Apple can do anything the PC can do, and more. Right? I think it is
(or will be) possible.
Disklaimer:
Perhaps WordPerfect Corporation will want to pay me for this plug. (Which is
to say that I'm not being remunerated in any way for this diatribe). Now all
we need is a really hot stand-alone spreadsheet and database program, and the
Apple II world will shake itself from this deadly grip that AppleWorks has
imposed upon all of us for half a decade. Let's move on folks.
--Morgan Davishalp@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU ("Bruce P. Halpern") (06/29/89)
As far as I can tell, WordPerfect for the Apple //e and //c (1988 copyright) does NOT transfer easily to either IBM or Mac. Files must be saved as text files, thereby losing bold, underline, super/sub, etc. In contrast, WordPerfect 5.0 for IBM, if saved as WordPerfect 4.2 files, transfers very nicely to WordPerfect for Mac. I use a card from MicroSolutions to allow my IBM AT 330 to use, write on, and read from, a standard Macintosh 3.5 inch external drive (see MicroSolutions adds in InfoWorld about every week). At the Mac end, a little magic is required in the WordPerfect File Manager to import the file as a WordPerfect file (the magic comes not from information in the WordPerfect manual but from a book on WordPerfect for the Macintosh that I happened to buy). Some software & cables that is said to allow full transfer of WordPerfect for Apple //c and //e files to IBM is sold by a third party. I have it but haven't used it (and don't remember its name). ****DISCLAMER: My comments, etc., are my own shakey opinions ******** | Bruce P. Halpern Psychology & Neurobiology & Behavior Cornell Ithaca | | INTERNET:halp@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu BITNET:D57J@CORNELLA D57J@CRNLVAX5| | UUCP:{vax135,rochester,decvax}!cornell!batcomputer!halp | | PHONE: 607-255-6433 Uris Hall, Cornell U., Ithaca, NY 14853-7601 |
johnm@pro-carolina.UUCP (John Moore) (06/29/89)
Network Comment: to #3892 by obsolete!dcanfield%byuvax.BITNET%jade.berkeley.edu
I just got "Cross-Works" by SoftSpoken and it is a great program/hardware
package. Cross-Works transfers AppleWorks files to IBM PC files. It comes
with a 10 foot cable with two IBM connectors on one end and three Apple
connectors on the other. The transfer rate is 19,200bps direct, Apple<-->IBM
or thru modems at the modems bps.
Default Conversions
-------------------
AppleWorks WP to WordPerfec{ on IBM
AppleWorks Sp to Lotus 1-2-3 on IBM
AppleWorks DB to dBase III, IV on IBM
Generic Apple Text to DOS ASSCII Text on IBM
AppleWorks DB to Delimited ASCII file on IBM
AppleWorks WP to Gemeric Word Proc. on IBM
and reverse, IBM to AppleWorks
The AppleWorks DB to Q & A transfer I made was already set up with
catagories and I had no clean-up to due. If you work with both type of
machines, the $80 for Crossworks is well worth it.
SoftSpoken
P.O. BOX 97623
Raleigh, NC 27624
(919) 878-7725
<Sydiver's Know Why The Bird's Sing!!>
Blue Skies,
johnm@pro-carolinalmb7421@ultb.UUCP (L.M. Barstow) (06/29/89)
In article <653dcanfield@yvax.byu.edu> dcanfield@yvax.byu.edu writes: > > >I must admit that in the IBM market they are very impressive. The IBM market is where WordPerfect got their start, and it is still their stronghold. This is not a cop-out before I've even begun...when I talked to the folks from WP at AppleFest, they seemed quite sure of two things...one - that WordPerfect Corp. was not going to sell a product more powerful than WP-IBM 5.0 for a smaller price, and two - that they weren't planning on raising the price for the Apple series of computers. Now, this presents a problem...the GS version of WP is already powerful (almost as powerful as WP 4.x for the IBM, minus column splitting). With a few minor revisions, they could easily make the GS version *much* better than it is (and they are putting as much in as they can without arousing too much suspicion in the Marketing division.) > >While there I thought I would check out the apple products division and see >what was there. >I was however, extremely disappointed with the II series product. One >of the support people showed me WordPerfect on the GS, talk about slow to come >up I assume you're talking about comparing the boot speed to an ExpressLoaded AppleWorks GS package...WordPerfect takes well under a minute to load on my machine (v2.0), and regular AppleWorksGS takes too many minutes... >isn't near the program that Appleworks is. This leads to what I thought most >disappointing. The program is just a word processor and nothing more. It does >not use what the GS is known for - graphics and sound - at all. I looked >through the menus a little and to be honest, I don't know why anyone would ever >buy and use WordPerfect instead of Appleworks. Now for the tricky part...Having seen the new verion of WordPerfect at AppleFest (v2.1e?), I can safely say this...the menus you see are *VERY* deceptive...they hide half of WP-GS's capability...there are pop-out menus for two or three features, and some other features still use dialog boxes to select options...in general, if you can find it on the IBM v4.x, you can usually find in in the GS...as for the BWABL (Bells, Whistles, and Blinking Lights), WordPerfect was never one for fanciness. The product gets the job done, and well. As for comparing it to Appleworks, well, I've seen AppleWorks GS, and I'm not impressed with its Word Processing features...Sorry, but it doesn't quite rate the praise that WP-GS does. As for the other things, the graphics (i.e.graphs, etc.), IBM v 5.0 WordPerfect does some of that from what I understand; but, until WPCorp decides to let the Apple][GS programmers have at, they won't ever release a product as full-featured as v5.0. The one single feature I've found most helpful so far is the ability to re-define the command keypresses. My tastes in keyCommands is apparently rather strange, and I've re-defined a number of them. Now I don't have to think or hunt for key Commands, nor do I have to use the menus (wasting precious time with the furry rodent :) much. Other than that, well, the Thesaurus is very complete and very useful, as is the SpellChecker (although I admit that it is SLOW - it *does* find what you want, and usually (unless you spell oddly) it finds the right word on the first or second try - more than I can say for most spellers). I also don't have to look at a "simulated page" (black writing on white background) - my single biggest gripe against the "Mac" movement, as I can change the colors to suit my needs. Okay, fine...these are the trivial things...they are the ones I need right now...however, I plan on doing quite a bit of writing in the future, and for that, WordPerfect will be incredilby useful...full merge (not seperate), full page, line, and style control (unless you want to get fancy and do shadow or something silly on a LaserWriter, and even then you can make WordPerfect do that with a little teaching) wherever I want to put it (The whole document isn't affected unless I want it to be, unlike the vast majority of word processors I've seen/used), and other features I haven't found yet because I haven't needed them yet. > >Anyway, I was just curious if there was anyone out there who is using >WordPerfect on the AppleII series and what they like about it. Okay, I hope that was a start...sorry if it sounds like I'm defending the product, but AppleWorks was never one of my favorite products, mostly because of its incomplete utility (I don't use the database much, and the spreadsheet hardly at all, and the word processing section is not as complete as it should be). > >Dan >Dcanfield@byuvax >Danc@yvax.edu -- Les Barstow |Bitnet: LMB7421@RITVAX| "I can read your mind, Phoenix rising... |UUCP: | and you should be From the ashes of a lost hope,| ...rutgers!rochester!| ashamed of yourself!" To a sky of clear blue. | ritcv!ultb!lmb7421| "Stop reading my mind!"
mhill@pro-generic.cts.com (Martin Hill) (06/30/89)
Network Comment: to #2761 by pnet01!crash!jade.berkeley.edu!dcanfield%byuvax.BITNET The main advantage of WordPerfect GS is the speed of printing. I frequently use it instead of AppleWorks for things I want to print out FAST, or many times. However, for appearance I chose AppleWorks GS. WP GS is slow in other aspects though. Going from beginning to end of a document takes forever! The spell-checker is SLOW, even when you put the file in /RAM5. And it can only print by reading the data from a file. I have never seen such a screwed up method of printing. Most programs print from data in memory, which is much better. Using WP GS without a hard drive is hell. It leaves all these files lying around, and constantly needs to swap disks. I recommend it only to someone who does not have an ImageWriter or simply wants fast printing. ____________________________________________________________________________ | | | | ProLine | mhill@pro-generic | | | UUCP | crash!pnet01!pro-generic!mhill | Empty Space | | INet | mhill@pro-generic.cts.com | ----------- | | ARPA | crash!pnet01!pro-generic!mhill@nosc.mil | | |___________________________________________________|________________________|
emerrill@pro-carolina.UUCP (Eric Merrill) (07/01/89)
Network Comment: to #3892 by obsolete!dcanfield%byuvax.BITNET%jade.berkeley.edu >One of the support people showed me WordPerfect on the GS, talk about >slow to come up. It took almost as long to boot it as it does to boot >AppleworksGS, and it isn't near the program that Appleworks is. I'd say it the other way around. I have WordPerfect for my GS, and I love it. I've used AppleWorks (both classic and GS) but am not especially fond of either. The features of WP that I use most are its _built-in_ spell checker, _built-in_ macros, and powerful formatting commands, including automatic creation of footers and headers. It is much faster than AW/GS, but not as fast as AW/classic simply because of the screen display. >This leads to what I thought most disappointing. The program is just a word >processor and nothing more. It does not use what the GS is known for - >graphics and sound - at all. That's one of the features I find most disappointing--not being able to incorporate sound into my documents! :-) It does not use GS fonts--at least not yet. According to WP Corp, the vapor-version they are working on now is comparable to WP 5.0 for the IBM (includes graphics and page layout capabilities). For serious word processing, how many fancy fonts and graphics do you need? If you want to layout a newsletter or something similar, obviously WP before the upcoming release is certainly not for you. >I looked through the menus a little and to be honest, I don't know why anyone >would ever buy and use WordPerfect instead of Appleworks. I just am not that fond of AppleWorks. AppleWorks GS is just a glorified MacWrite! ___________________________________________________________________________ | | | Eric Merrill INET: emerrill@pro-carolina.cts.com SPACE FOR RENT!! | | Alink PE: Doc Neuro GEnie: e.merrill CHEAP!! | | ARPA: crash!pro-carolina!emerrill@nosc.mil $49.95/MO | | UUCP: [ sdcsvax nosc ] !crash!pro-carolina!emerrill or best offer | |___________________________________________________________________________|
terrys@pro-europa.cts.com (Terry Stockdale) (07/02/89)
Comment to message from: pnet01!crash!ucbvax.berkeley.edu!hpda!hpcuhb!hpihoah!winch (Bill Winchester) Morgan Davis (via Bill Winchester's repost) writes: > Now all we need is a really hot stand-alone spreadsheet and database > program, and the Apple II world will shake itself from this deadly grip > that AppleWorks has imposed upon all of us for half a decade. Let's move > on folks. Well, we already have the hot stand-alone database program. DB Master Professional provides up with a relational database that knocks the socks off of DBase III. Huge fields, huge files (even ability to span a file across up to 50 5.25 or 3.5 diskettes, if you don't have a hard disk). It will import fields to the database you are in from related databases, or export records or fields to them. Really snazzy stuff. List $295. Available mail order for about $200. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Terry Stockdale -- Houston, Texas ProLine : terrys@pro-europa INET : terrys@pro-europa.cts.com ARPA : crash!pnet01!pro-nfsmat!pro-europa!terrys@nosc.mil UUCP : {nosc,uunet!cacilj,sdcsvax,hplabs!hp-sdd,sun.com} ...crash!pnet01!pro-europa.cts.com!terrys ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
housey@astroatc.UUCP (Ed Housey) (07/07/89)
This message is primarily directed at those of you who are in agreement with Morgan Davis, the person in charge of the original message. For your information, AppleWorks has, in the past, been the number one selling program for the Apple computer. That must say something about the program. The fact that Appleworks is faster than Wordperfect is another reason AppleWorks is STILL around, after FIVE years. A new version is soon to be released, if not already. As far as support goes, can you honestly say that Claris hung up on you or disconnected the line because they didn't want to answer your question licketly split? Did you ever consider that Claris is probably busy with other customers on technical support lines?? I happen to have complete faith in Appleworks. Never have I had a problem with lost files, printing documents, writing documents, etc. Another thing: Since Appleworks has been around for 5 years, wordperfect has had nothing to do but sit around and learn from Appleworks mistakes (and yes, any program released will undoubtedly have features and fuctions that not everyone likes) My Disclaimer: I didn't write a 640 page manual, nor do I expect Claris to PAY ME for defending them. But geeze, get a life, eh? Ed Housey
mmunz@pro-sol.cts.com (Mark Munz) (07/07/89)
Network Comment: to #8651 by pnet01!crash!BRL.MIL!astroatc!housey%speedy.wisc.edu
Quite true.. I've been using AppleWorks for quite some time, in fact since
v1.1 or something like that. With the new feature of AppleWorks 3.0 (to be
released in August :-), most of the complaints about previous versions have
been handled.
Sure, it doesn't have built-in macros.. but you can get UltraMacros ("THE"
best macro program written, period) for $29.95 when you get AppleWorks 3.0tamara@ecsvax.UUCP (07/28/89)
>of the support people showed me WordPerfect on the GS, talk about slow to come >up. It took almost as long to boot it as it does to boot AppleworksGS, and it >isn't near the program that Appleworks is. This leads to what I thought most >disappointing. The program is just a word processor and nothing more. It does The program is designed to be just a word processor. It has more than Appleworks GS as far as a word processor though: To name just two (1) a spelling checker (including a word counter--useful to writers) and (2) a Thesaurus. >not use what the GS is known for - graphics and sound - at all. I looked I don't see why a word processor has to use graphics and sound necessarily. It _does_ have pull down easy to use menus which seem to take pretty good advantage of the IIgs system. >through the menus a little and to be honest, I don't know why anyone would ever >buy and use WordPerfect instead of Appleworks. The one big advantage all WP Well I would. For one thing I can use the numeric key pad as if it were on a PC. (Don't groan folks.) When you do a lot of writing at work you get used to function keys--especially ones which take you to the beginning of your document, line, etc. >products have, however, is that the data files can be transfered between >machines (apple to ibm) with great ease. This is just one of the advantages--and I might mention it is a really good one when you have different people using several different machines. Any other programs would lose formatting (e.g., sub and super scripts) but Word Perfect retains all this. There are also much more options in formatting a document. I must admit I haven't used Apple Works that much. Let me ask you Does it have headers/footers that can be opened and edited and automatically placed on each page? Does it create footnotes? Does it have pull down menus as well as function key equivalents? Does it have WYSIWYG? Does it show you hidden commands which turn on bolding, underlining, margin changes, font changes, etc? Does it have a built in thesaurus? Does it have a built-in spelling checker? Can it do hanging indents? Does it have hanging indents? Can you start page numbering with any page number automatically? I don't think you use a word processor to it's fullest capabilities. I think one of the problems with Apple Works is it does a lot of things and therefore the power in a word processing stand alone program is lost. These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Bottom line: I really like it. So there :-) ------------------------------------- Tamara@ecsvax.bitnet
jazzman@claris.com (Sydney R. Polk) (07/29/89)
From article <7411@ecsvax.UUCP>, by tamara@ecsvax.UUCP: > The program is designed to be just a word processor. It has more > than Appleworks GS as far as a word processor though: To name > just two (1) a spelling checker (including a word counter--useful > to writers) and (2) a Thesaurus. I beg to differ. AppleWorks GS has an 80,000 word dictionary and a 40,000 word thesaurus. I don't know exactly what you mean by word counter, but the statistics menu whill tell you how many characters, words, paragraphs and apges you have. And the word processor (as are all of the other modules) are WYSIWYG. -- Syd Polk | Wherever you go, there you are. jazzman@claris.com | Let the music be your light. GO 'STROS! | These opinions are mine. Any resemblence to other GO RICE! | opinions, real or fictitious, is purely coincidence.