dtroup@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Troup) (09/14/89)
this summer I turned in my trusty IIgs to my local dealer to have
they're techie examine my DOC chip. The chip worked fine, but it
wouldnt take any sound IN. I could play sounds quite well (as normal).
Upong receiving my computer back, I looked upon the bill. $350! As to
what they did? Replaced the Main Logic Board (motherboard)!! I went in
and the manager showed me the repair book that the techie used to fix
my computer. It went something like this...
-test Ensonic DOC Chip
-If no sound : replace main logic board
BOY OH BOY! Now apple will get a PERFECTLY FINE motherboard, slap a
new doc chip in it, and RESELL it. Me? Im out $350 for a damn DOC
chip...and my dealer is hiding behind the wonderous power of Apple.
Is there something that I am missing about the repair service of
Apple Dealers? I would like some people to ask they're dealers what
their policy is...and could some dealers let me know as well?
Personally, I think this is pure BS... Ive been so happy will all of
the things my dealer has been doing for me sofar (Ive been an Apple
user since 82)..and now I am doubting the professionalism of the
dealers. I dont EVER want to bring in my computers for 'fixing'
again. the FIRST time I brought mine in...they replaced the ROM and
the Video chip WITHOUT asking my permission first. Af course all of
my software that I had been writing wouldnt work on the new chips (I
had to rewrite all of it), but they were nicer in giving me the old
chips back...on a permanent loan.
I would have rather spent that $350 on the Video Overlay Board
instead...but they screwed themselves out of a sale by this
remarkably ameteurish action.
If I bought a NEW motherboard...shouldnt I get my OLD one back?
After all, I paid for that one as well. $350 should cover the cost
of a NEW one...so I am entitled to my old one back...RIGHT? (I would
love some answers to these questions since my dealer wont help me)
dtroup@carroll1.cc.edu
--
"We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, knowin' that ain't allowed"__ _______ _______________ |David C. Troup / Surf Rat
_______)(______ | |dtroup@carroll1.cc.edu : mail
________________________________|414-524-6809______________________________ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET (09/16/89)
In reply to the message about having to replace a motherboard (IIgs) because the Ensonic ic was bad and is that a dealer-specific rip-off: No. Apple will not allow dealers to replace ics on the motherboard. Apple will not allow dealers to stock any of the proprietary motherboard ics. Apple charges the dealer the same amount for a motherboard swap no matter what's wrong on the old one. However, the amount above & beyond what Apple charges for the swap that the dealer adds to your cost _is_ dealer-specific. The dealer will add something for "diagnosis" as well as for installing the new motherboard. You did not "buy a new motherboard". Apple will not sell a motherboard, only swap one. You can't _get_ a new motherboard if you don't have an old one to swap for it. However some more, one can argue that the cost of the swap is too high (for what good it will do you.)
emerrill@tippy.uucp (09/16/89)
> -test Ensonic DOC Chip > -If no sound : replace main logic board > > BOY OH BOY! Now apple will get a PERFECTLY FINE motherboard, slap a > new doc chip in it, and RESELL it. Me? Im out $350 for a damn DOC > chip...and my dealer is hiding behind the wonderous power of Apple. They did give you the NEW(03) motherboard, didn't they? I would think you have a legitimate right to the new one if they're gonna screw you outta your money like this! Why didn't you just ask for your old motherboard back and then you'd just have had to pay for labor... _________________________________________________________ | | | Eric Merrill tippy!emerrill@newton.physics.purdue.edu | | | | Disclaimer: | | If you think I'm serious, that's your problem! | |_________________________________________________________|
blochowi@rt8.cs.wisc.edu (Jason Blochowiak) (09/16/89)
In article <8909151435.aa08683@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> ALBRO@NIEHS.BITNET writes:
<In reply to the message about having to replace a motherboard (IIgs) because
<the Ensonic ic was bad and is that a dealer-specific rip-off:
<
<No. Apple will not allow dealers to replace ics on the motherboard. Apple
<will not allow dealers to stock any of the proprietary motherboard ics.
< [... Goes on about motherboard swaps ...]
I'm just curious as to when Apple bought Ensoniq - missed that Wall
Street Journal, I guess. In other words: Since when is the Ensoniq DOC Apple's
proprietary property? I can understand something like the Mega II chip, or the
IWM, or whatever else, but the DOC?
--
Jason Blochowiak - back at school (again).
blochowi@garfield.cs.wisc.edu or jason@madnix.UUCP
"What's up pruneface?" - Bugs Bunny in the year 2000jetzer@studsys.mu.edu (Mike Jetzer) (09/18/89)
In article <127500044@tippy> emerrill@tippy.uucp writes: >> -test Ensonic DOC Chip >> -If no sound : replace main logic board >> BOY OH BOY! Now apple will get a PERFECTLY FINE motherboard, slap a >> new doc chip in it, and RESELL it. Me? Im out $350 for a damn DOC >> chip...and my dealer is hiding behind the wonderous power of Apple. >They did give you the NEW(03) motherboard, didn't they? I would think >you have a legitimate right to the new one if they're gonna screw you >outta your money like this! Why didn't you just ask for your old >motherboard back and then you'd just have had to pay for labor... I sent a (rather long) mail message to the original poster, but there seems to be some confusion regarding Apple repair policies, so... I am not an Apple technician; I do not (and have never) worked for an Apple dealer. The school district for which I work in the summer is, however, an Apple Level I service location; I am familiar with Apple's Service Program. The reason for the (perceived) drastic action of replacing the whole mother- board is because you never know what is actually wrong with it. It may be just one chip, but there may be hidden causes. The dealer may replace the chip, but then have it go bad again because it wasn't the chip's fault to begin with. Then we'd read flames about how "I took my GS in to my dealer four times before they finally fixed it right." Furthermore, it takes a lot more time (and a lot more skill) to track down the bad component(s) than it does to swap the board. Apple strongly recommends a 24-hour turnaround time; it may take more time than that for a qualified technician to get the time to look at it, and then track it down. At $55 an hour for repairs, you don't want to waste a lot of time, and you still have the problem as stated in the previous paragraph. Also, Apple may or may not make all components (especially custom chips) available for repairs (afraid of hardware hackers making 'unauthorized use' of Apple parts? who knows?) Also, you do not get a 'new' board. Apple warns dealers against calling it 'new'; the replacement may be refurbished or rebuilt. Upgrades to current hardware are handled separately. The cost quoted was for a swap or 'SRO' in Apple-speak. It usually costs >4 times as much to get a new (service stock) board than SROing a board (hardware hacker fear again? who knows?) (Again, 'new' means 'another, separate board that is not related to a swap', rather than 'the latest upgrade version'.) When you take the dealer's cost of the board, add in his 33% profit margin, add in his labor charges, you can easily get an exhorbitant bottom line. But in the long run, Apple believes that their method is the most reliable, quickest method of repair. Let me reiterate that I am not and never was affiliated with an Apple dealer; I'm just familar with their Service Programs. Also, these Apple procedures are not verbatim from the SP, and certain biases may have been introduced by yours truly (phrases containing 'afraid' and 'exhorbitant' are definitely mine :-) -- Mike Jetzer "Hack first, ask questions later."
dtroup@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Troup) (09/18/89)
In article <127500044@tippy> emerrill@tippy.uucp writes: >They did give you the NEW(03) motherboard, didn't they? I would think >you have a legitimate right to the new one if they're gonna screw you >outta your money like this! Why didn't you just ask for your old >motherboard back and then you'd just have had to pay for labor... Nope, Rom Version 01. Those idiots claim to have "accedentially" send the motherboard back, "Oh, we're SO sorry...". I would like to thank whomever worked for a dealer for they're reply. Though I still feel as though Ive been taken through the Apple grinder for some serious $$$. If I would have known that they were going to charge me $350 for it, I would have just said "Forget it" and bought the Video Card. But they did the "repairs" and didnt even ask me if I wanted it done! (Im am remeinded of a time when my sister went in for an oil change...seems as though the machanic FOUND a few more PROBLEMS with the car and made his REPAIRS without asking her.) The whole operation was pretty screwy if you ask me. AAUUGGHH!! Thanks for NOTHING Apple... -- "We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, knowin' that ain't allowed"__ _______ _______________ |David C. Troup / Surf Rat _______)(______ | |dtroup@carroll1.cc.edu : mail ________________________________|414-524-6809______________________________
SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (09/18/89)
On Sun, 17 Sep 89 22:42:14 GMT you said: > If I would have known that they were going to charge me $350 for it, I > would have just said "Forget it" and bought the Video Card. But they > did the "repairs" and didnt even ask me if I wanted it done! (Im am > remeinded of a time when my sister went in for an oil change...seems as > though the machanic FOUND a few more PROBLEMS with the car and made his > REPAIRS without asking her.) The whole operation was pretty screwy if > you ask me. AAUUGGHH!! Thanks for NOTHING Apple... If you were clever enough to pay with a bank credit card, ask them to forward a "disputed charge" form. You can argue that you aren't required to pay for an unauthorized repair. The credit card company (under Federal Law) can (and probably will) withhold the payment from the dealer. You have a MUCH better chance of winning this sort of argument when you have the (very big) credit card company's lawyers asking the dealer tough questions. I suspect you can take the position that you'd be happy to accept the return of your original parts, but if the dealer has "discarded" them, then it's not your fault and you owe nothing more than (Apple's) wholesale price for the swap (you probably can't get off paying nothing, but you CAN force the dealer to forego labor and profit for an unauthorized repair). If you paid by cash or check, send a WRITTEN complain to your local Better Business Bureau. The BBB isn't NEARLY as tough as a credit card company (which is REQUIRED to offer you protection under Federal statutes), but they often DO get adjustments and, therefore, probably are worth the letter and the stamp. You have up to a year to dispute a charge (even AFTER you've paid the credit card company) so if your sister paid the mechanic less than a year ago (even if she used an Oil Company's credit card), she can dispute the charges on the same grounds. BTW your credit card company cannot charge financial charges on the amount of the disputed payment until they've investigated and told you what they plan to do about complaint. Murph Sewall Vaporware? ---> [Gary Larson returns 1/1/90] Prof. of Marketing Sewall@UConnVM.BITNET Business School sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu [INTERNET] U of Connecticut {psuvax1 or mcvax }!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL [UUCP] (203) 486-5246 [FAX] (203) 486-2489 [PHONE] 41 49N 72 15W [ICBM] The opposite of artificial intelligence is genuine stupidity! -+- I don't speak for my employer, though I frequently wish that I could (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited)
fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) (09/18/89)
In article <581@carroll1.UUCP> dtroup@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Troup) writes: [thwack] > If I would have known that they were going to charge me $350 for it, I > would have just said "Forget it" and bought the Video Card. But they > did the "repairs" and didnt even ask me if I wanted it done! (Im am > remeinded of a time when my sister went in for an oil change...seems as > though the machanic FOUND a few more PROBLEMS with the car and made his > REPAIRS without asking her.) The whole operation was pretty screwy if > you ask me. AAUUGGHH!! Thanks for NOTHING Apple... If a mechanic does work without an estimate, you don't have to pay for it. The ComputerLand/Infomax dealer I went to was careful about getting approval before proceeding with repairs; maybe you can negate your repair bills with a carefully planned legal attack. Any lawyers out there care to discuss this? _______ _______________ |David C. Troup / Surf Rat -- fadden@cory.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) ...!ucbvax!cory!fadden
dtroup@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Troup) (09/18/89)
In article <8909180110.aa15443@SMOKE.BRL.MIL> SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) writes: >If you were clever enough to pay with a bank credit card, ask them to >forward a "disputed charge" form. You can argue that you >aren't required to pay for an unauthorized repair. The credit card company >(under Federal Law) can (and probably will) withhold the payment from the They were going to charge the bill to my house address (as usual), and until this is cleared up, Im not going to pay them. I also told them NOT to send the old motherboard back to ol' Apple until we resolve this little problem. (can I legaly do this? I'd hate to screw myself over..) david c. troup -- "We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, knowin' that ain't allowed"__ _______ _______________ |David C. Troup / Surf Rat _______)(______ | |dtroup@carroll1.cc.edu : mail ________________________________|414-524-6809______________________________
brianw@microsoft.UUCP (Brian Willoughby) (09/19/89)
In article <127500044@tippy> emerrill@tippy.uucp writes: >> -test Ensonic DOC Chip >> -If no sound : replace main logic board >> BOY OH BOY! Now apple will get a PERFECTLY FINE motherboard, slap a >> new doc chip in it, and RESELL it. Me? Im out $350 for a damn DOC >> chip...and my dealer is hiding behind the wonderous power of Apple. First of all, let me say that when it comes to my personal experience with Apple's "replace the motherboard first, ask questions later" approach, I don't like the cost. But when I consider the alternative, I end up thanking Apple. Imagine, if you will, that Apple Co. attempted to hire a 'competent' computer repair person for EVERY single dealership! I think that the results would be much worse than the performance of their salesmen. In any given area, its hard enough to find people who can *talk* about Apple computers competently, much less actually diagnose and repair them. And if I worked in computer repair, and would expect a decent salary, too, regardless of how large or small the volume of repair business was. Who would end up paying the repair salaries? I don't think that we could afford on-site repair, nor would we be happy with the results. Case in point: a friend helped a girl install a Yamaha stereo system in a house that had already been wired for speakers in different rooms. Well, it turns out that the negative speaker terminals in that house wiring were tied together (previous owner must have been an idiot). Needless to say, the amp burned out. But the ugly part was that after sending the amp to an 'authorized Yamaha repair center', the amp blew up again - after the wiring had been corrected! My friend decided to take a look in the amp, to see why the expensive repair job didn't work. What he saw was a soldering job that could have been better done by a grade schooler. Several parts were shorted out by sloppy soldering, and the 'repair' job probably did more damage than the original accident. When I heard this story, I remembered that (at the time) Apple's policy for repairs was that only socketed parts could be swapped by dealers, and none of the soldered parts (like transistors on Comm Cards, much to my dismay) were available. From my experience, the dealership repairmen (at least in my area) had a hard enough time just swapping chips to fix the Apple II's. One friend had his Apple in so much that the sockets were worn out from frequent chip plugging, and the contacts weren't making any more. I shudder to think of what they would have done with a soldering iron. Whether or not you like the cost, at least Apple has consistent repair results, which don't depend upon the abilities of the dealer (well, at least not too much). I don't think that Apple is only concerned with theft of proprietary chips, either. Just think of the potential cost of stocking all the nationwide dealers with every component. Apple has already gone to great measures to employ 'just in time stocking' for Macintosh assembly (where parts for Macs arrive the same day they are assembled in to a Mac). So why would they want parts lying around gathering dust at dealerships. You realize who would have to foot the bill for that cost, don't you? I'm sure that everyone can think of an example where a $0.10 transistor would have fixed thier Apple product, but hiring someone in every area with enough experience to figure out which one would really cost more in the long run. Brian Willoughby UUCP: ...!{tikal, sun, uunet, elwood}!microsoft!brianw InterNet: microsoft!brianw@uunet.UU.NET or: microsoft!brianw@Sun.COM Bitnet brianw@microsoft.UUCP
jib@prism.TMC.COM (09/21/89)
RE: Motherboard swap for Sound chip
Note: I am an attorney, but I am NOT in practice and this is not legal
advice that you should rely on.
The only legal argument that you probably have is that they should have
notified you of the price and gotten your approval first. You probably
told them to "fix" the problem and they did so in the only Apple-approved
way -- by a motherboard swap.
Some communities have local laws requiring auto mechanics and TV repair
shops to give estimates if a job will exceed "x" dollars -- if such a law
applies in your area, it MIGHT also apply to electronic equipment repairs.
Murph's suggestion of using a credit card as leverage was a good one, but
I gather you didn't charge the repair.
If you keep the "new" motherboard, you will have to pay at least the
dealer cost of the board UNLESS they were bound to notify you of the cost
of the repair in advance. I suggest negotiating with the store manager --
on the point that they should have told you it would be $350 BEFORE they
did the work.
If they still have your "defective board" you may be able to get them to
put it back and only pay for their "estimate" charge for looking at the
board originally.
Hope this helps.
With regArd to other comments on the swap -- Apple does not offer ROM 3
boards in exchange for old boards even if you offer to pay more. Although
I don't like the price of an exhange personally, I think Apple's policy is
the only practical one for all the reasons given by the fellow from
Microsoft (Brian W? sorry I don't have his message handy).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Block jib@prism.TMC.COM
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