djhill@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( Number_6 **) (10/01/89)
After reading some information on ProLine I noticed that the Apple //c is not supported (like most other things). I was wondering if any of the ProLine sysops reading this feed could enlighten me as to why this restriction might exists. Having to get a //e just to run Pro-Line isn't very practical. - Doug Hill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ InterNet: djhill@rodan.acs.syr.edu BitNet: RTRON@SUVM
paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) (10/02/89)
Comment to message from: gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!nyser!rodan!djhill@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Number_6 **) > After reading some information on ProLine I noticed that the Apple //c is > not supported (like most other things). I was wondering if any of the > ProLine sysops reading this feed could enlighten me as to why this restriction > might exists. Having to get a //e just to run Pro-Line isn't very practical. I'm not the guru for ProLine but I'll wager the reason Morgan doesn't mention the //c is because of the lack of hard drives for them. ProLine just will not run on floppies like some of the other, not so nice BBS programs. I'll bet if you found a way to plug a larger than 5 meg harder into your //c it would work dandy. Paul | UUCP: [ucsd, nosc] !crash!pro-europa!paul | "All that is necessary for the | | INET: paul@pro-europa.cts.com | triumph of evil, is for good | | ARPA: crash!pro-europa!paul@nosc.mil | men to do nothing." |
lbotez@pnet02.gryphon.com (Lynda Botez) (10/03/89)
In regard to the comment on why ProLine does not support the //c... >I'm not the guru for ProLine but I'll wager the reason Morgan doesn't mention >the //c is because of the lack of hard drives for them. ProLine just will not >run on floppies like some of the other, not so nice BBS programs. >I'll be if you found a way to plug a larger than 5 meg harder into your //c >it would work dandy. Well, Applied Ingenuity has a inner drive for the Apple //c. I saw it at Applefest. You have to do some minor surgery to your computer, but it goes inside the machine (replaces the 5.25 drive). I was amazed! I forgot how much it was, but it was at least 20 megs. Also, I'm sure the Over Drive will work. Lynda UUCP: {ames!elroy, <routing site>}!gryphon!pnet02!lbotez INET: lbotez@pnet02.gryphon.com
rich@pro-exchange.cts.com (Rich Sims) (10/03/89)
Comment to message from: paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) [comment about lack of ProLine support for //c deleted] >> I was wondering if any of the ProLine sysops reading this feed could >> enlighten me as to why this restriction might exists. Having to get a //e >> just to run Pro-Line isn't very practical. > I'm not the guru for ProLine but I'll wager the reason Morgan doesn't mention > the //c is because of the lack of hard drives for them. ProLine just will > not run on floppies like some of the other, not so nice BBS programs. I suspect a better reason is that ProLine *absolutely* requires a clock and the //c doesn't have one. (I know there are some add-ons available, but they are "non-standard" additions.) I also seem to remember something about the serial port, but that may not have any bearing on the matter, since it was a while back and I can't remember what it was about. The hard disk (or lack of it) isn't really a problem. ProLine will recognize any ProDOS device, and there have been some hard disks available for //c's. It can also run on floppies, although it won't have much room for anything. When Pro-Sol's hard disk went belly up, the system ran for a while on one 800k floppy as a mail server. Admittedly, anything less than a hard disk with at least 5 megs free is going to be an exercise in frustration. -Rich Sims- UUCP: crash!pro-exchange!rich ARPA: crash!pro-exchange!rich@nosc.mil INET: rich@pro-exchange.cts.com
mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) (10/04/89)
Network Comment: to #11692 by gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!nyser!rodan!djhill@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
The IIc, one of Apple's worst incarnations of the Apple II, is not well suited
to run as a ProLine system. ProLine requires that you have:
o A clock that doesn't interfere with the serial port
o A hard disk drive
o A decent Hayes-compatible modem
Everything you add to a IIc is a compromise, because the computer was never
designed to handle any peripherals beyond what the ports on the backplane
provided. For a long time you couldn't get a decent hard disk drive (the disk
port, designed for floppy drives, has a terrible throughput rating). The
serial port is difficult to work with because it deviates greatly from a
design suitable for a BBS modem (to provide carrier loss detection,
specifically). Until the No-Slot Clock (and clones), the IIc was clockless
(the serial port clock design is a real loser). No easy method is provided
for accessing the Day of Week (Sun...Sat) and seconds from the chip-based
clocks, as ProDOS supports only date, month, year, hours and minutes.
IIc owners who install enhancements into their machines also routinely have
trouble using the latest Apple II system software releases, because so many of
the enhancements require patches to ProDOS. They usually keep running old,
buggy system software because they don't have access to the latest PRODOS with
the patches they need. We cannot support ProLine adequately when used in
obsolete operating system setups.
The bottom line is that you *can* run ProLine on a IIc if you are a wizard
with your machine, handy with a soldering iron and the IIc serial port
pinouts, and your IIc is adequately equipped (as described above). The reason
we do not advertise support for it is because we have run into trouble in the
past when less-knowledgable IIc owners expected their computers to operate
ProLine just as a II+, IIe, or IIGS does. It is far more difficult to get
ProLine running on a IIc simply because of the hardware limitations. We just
can't support the software in that environment for the majority of IIc owners.
Thus, the IIc configuration is discouraged.
--Morgan Davis
President
Morgan Davis Group
UUCP: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mdavis ProLine: mdavis@pro-sol
ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mdavis@nosc.mil MCI Mail: 137-6036
INET: mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com America Online, BIX: mdavisdjhill@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( Number_6 **) (10/04/89)
Ok, so basically it's that the basic //c isn't equipped to run ProLine but how about a 5 Mhz //c with 20 Mbs of disk space and 1Mb of RAM plus a clock (via ZRAM Ultra II)? There shouldn't be a problem with the //c's serial port since I've been running a system on this //c for about four years. - Doug Hill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- InterNet: djhill@rodan.acs.syr.edu BitNET: RTRON@SUVM
jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut) (10/04/89)
Network Comment: to #12537 by usc!henry.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!gryphon!pnet02!lbotez@ucsd.edu >I'm not the guru for ProLine but I'll wager the reason Morgan doesn't mention >the //c is because of the lack of hard drives for them. ProLine just will not >run on floppies like some of the other, not so nice BBS programs. That's not the case any more with Chinook and AI hard disks in the 40mb range, but ProLine still won't run on a IIc: the serial port cannot detect carrier loss like the IIgs modem port, Super Serial Card or internal modems.
UD169430@VM1.NODAK.EDU (Aaron Swiers) (10/05/89)
For those of you who are unaware.........(although I'm sure most of you have he ard of this before) Chinook Technology makes a 20 meg hard disk that can easily be plugged into the external drive port on an Apple //c. Granted this drive doesn't give quite the speed that a SCSI drive does, but it is faster than 3.5" access, and has the nice feature of being a 20 meg drive. I have never actually seen one i n action, but I do own a 40 meg Chinook drive (SCSI - attached to my //e) and they are very nice drives. The //c 20meg can (at a later date) be upgraded to SCSI if you ever change computers (a small fee - of course). Until then,
dougs@pro-tcc.UUCP (Doug Stevenson) (10/06/89)
Network Comment: to #799 by UD169430@vm1.nodak.edu
Hmm, I couldn't get anyone to tell me how the Chinnok is hooked up (mainly
because noone has one) but since it is hooked to the external drive port, does
that mean that it would hook up to the external drive port in a Laser 128? I
believe they are basically the same thing. Or course, with a Laser 128, I
couldalways buy the expansion box which would open up slots 5 and 7 like a
//e's. THen I could buy the SCSI and the HD. Maybe the Chinook woud be
cheaper that all that...
The Dougger says...
Always expect the least and you will never be disappointed.jerryk@pro-tcc.UUCP ("Jerry E. Kindall") (10/06/89)
Network Comment: to #799 by UD169430@vm1.nodak.edu Re: the Chinook CT-20c hard drive for the IIc. Chinook just introduced a 40 meg IIc model, too -- it's even partitionable, and you can daisychain your UniDisk 3.5's and 5.25 onto it. Also, Applied Ingenuity showed 20 and 40 meg internal IIc hard drives at AppleFest. The hard drive "problem" is not really a problem for the IIc. As for the modem port not being able to do true carrier detect... I've heard that all you need is a properly wired cable. Then carrier detect can be implemented. You have to watch the DTR(?) line insted of the DCD line, but Applied Engineering's new EasyLink (oooops, I mean ReadyLink!) has an option to do just that -- allowing true carrier detect on the IIc. _____ ||___|| Jerry Kindall | Internet: jerryk@pro-tcc.cts.com | o | 2612 Queensway Drive | UUCP: nosc!crash!pnet01!pro-tcc |__O__| Grove City, OH 43123 | GEnie: A2.JERRY ALine: A2 Jerry
rat@madnix.UUCP (David Douthitt) (10/08/89)
Morgan Davis (mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com) wrote: | | Until the No-Slot Clock (and clones), the IIc was clockless | (the serial port clock design is a real loser). No easy method is provided | for accessing the Day of Week (Sun...Sat) and seconds from the chip-based | clocks, as ProDOS supports only date, month, year, hours and minutes. I've used a CPU IIc System Clock for years and it works just fine - in fact, much better than the Serial Pro which I bought some time ago for my II+. While it doesn't work well as a serial port, it works just fine in slot 1. | IIc owners who install enhancements into their machines also routinely | have trouble using the latest Apple II system software releases, | because so many of the enhancements require patches to ProDOS. | They usually keep running old, buggy system software because they | don't have access to the latest PRODOS with the patches they need. | We cannot support ProLine adequately when used in obsolete operating | system setups. I've not had any trouble using my CPU IIc System Clock - the clock driver works well with any Prodos release. As for modems and hard drives, there's the Quark QC10, the ProApp series, and most notably (unless I'm mistaken) some sort of internal driver replacing the 5.25" from Applied Ingenuity. Also, there is the Practical Peripherals 2400 Baud modem. I acknowledge that putting together a IIc BBS provides unique challenges - but a BBS sysop should be up to it. If not, they should find something other to do than run a BBS. Also, does this mean that ModemWorks does not support the IIc? Does it support the CPU IIc System Clock (and thus the Prodos time standards?) Just trying to stick up for a much misunderstood computer .... as if the Apple II didn't have enough PR troubles. [david] -- !======= David Douthitt :::: Madison, WI =======!== The Stainless Steel Rat ==! ! ArpaNet: madnix!rat@cs.wisc.edu ! ! ! UseNet: ...uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!rat ! Mad Apple Forth: ! ! {decvax!att}! ! The Madness starts here. !
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (10/08/89)
In article <8910020736.AA03496@trout.nosc.mil> paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) writes: >I'm not the guru for ProLine but I'll wager the reason Morgan doesn't mention >the //c is because of the lack of hard drives for them. ProLine just will not >run on floppies like some of the other, not so nice BBS programs. > >I'll bet if you found a way to plug a larger than 5 meg harder into your //c >it would work dandy. Chinook (sp?) does have a 20 meg drive for the //c. I believe it's name is the CT20C. And, at my Apple users grou]p meeting Monday, a guy was telling me that a 40 meg drive was just developed for the //c by the same company. -- John M. Adams --*-- Professional Student on the six-year plan! Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu -or- vladimir@maple.circa.ufl.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "It is neither safe nor honorable to act against conscience." - Luther
mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) (10/12/89)
Network Comment: to #12017 by astroatc!nicmad!madnix!rat%speedy.wisc.edu@BRL.MIL David Douthitt writes: > does this mean that ModemWorks does not support the IIc? No, it does not mean that. My point about MDG's reluctance to recommend ProLine as a BBS for Apple IIc owners was simply due to the level of knowledge needed to set up a IIc properly for such a BBS. The software will run just fine on *any* Apple II series machine that runs ProDOS. With all the work I do coding, I'm not left with a lot of time to spend on the phone handling technical support calls. I think for most IIc owners, trying to get ProLine up and running would entail many headaches because of hardware restrictions. You're the exception, of course, and I know there are others, too. You are also the minority. In sum, ModemWorks and AmperWorks (and, of course, ProLine) will run on any Apple II machine that runs ProDOS when the hardware is properly equipped. And, that is easier to do on other Apple II machines -- the IIc is a bit more difficult. --Morgan Davis UUCP: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mdavis ProLine: mdavis@pro-sol ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mdavis@nosc.mil MCI Mail: 137-6036 INET: mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com America Online, BIX: mdavis