spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) (10/12/89)
This question might be an over written topic... Does the concept of shareware programmes really work? I ask this because one of my friends has this programme that he constantly uses for the GS, but he feels that it is a waste of his time and money to support the author. I think he is just %!@$@ messed up. What is your viewpoint? Bevan Wang
dlyons@Apple.COM (David Lyons) (10/14/89)
In article <4707@wpi.wpi.edu> spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: >[...] > Does the concept of shareware programmes really work? > > I ask this because one of my friends has this programme that he > constantly uses for the GS, but he feels that it is a waste of his > time and money to support the author. I think he is just %!@$@ messed > up. What is your viewpoint? > > Bevan Wang Yes, it works. Sort of. Sometimes. I sell some Shareware products, so I see things from the opposite point of view as your friend. Sometimes I feel it's a waste of my time and money to support all the people who use my software for free. Sometimes. Sort of. -- --Dave Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems AppleLink--Apple Edition: DAVE.LYONS | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (10/17/89)
In article <4707@wpi.wpi.edu>, spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: > > I ask this because one of my friends has this programme that he > constantly uses for the GS, but he feels that it is a waste of his > time and money to support the author. I think he is just %!@$@ messed > up. What is your viewpoint? To be blunt, your friend is a thief. Wonder if he'd feel differently if he were writing software. Or maybe painting pictures...and not getting paid for them. ------------ "...I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing: and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." - Petronius Arbiter, 210 B.C.
spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) (10/18/89)
>In article <4707@wpi.wpi.edu>, spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: >> >> I ask this because one of my friends has this programme that he >> constantly uses for the GS, but he feels that it is a waste of his >> time and money to support the author. I think he is just %!@$@ messed >> up. What is your viewpoint? > > To be blunt, your friend is a thief. Wonder if he'd feel differently if he > were writing software. > > Or maybe painting pictures...and not getting paid for them. Ahh.... I asked that very same question. His futile response was: "I don't expect them to pay me... I don't care." Continuing... "Honestly, I feel that copying software is not stealing. Stealing in my viewpoint is removing an material item. Copying, is another thing... I am not stealing anything. Even if the programmer priced the programme for only one dollar, I still would not send money. It is a waste of my time and stamp." "If I wrote a programme and offered it as share-ware, I don't expect them to pay me... I don't care." So far I have heard responses from ShareWare Programmers, how about the end users' view? Bevan Wang
sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com (The RainForest BBS) (10/18/89)
Comment to message from: concertina!fiddler@sun.com (Steve Hix) I agree. It has always amazed me that some people in the MS-DOS world can actually make a comfortable living writing shareware. Maybe it's the general maturity level of the type of user. The only shareware author I know of in the Apple world is the author of Red Ryder. <Then again... the "type" of user (Mac versus // or II) made that possible> And I believe he finally went commercial. (Make that the only "successful" shareware author I know of in the Apple....) /steve +===========================================================================+ | UUCP: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider COMPU$ERVE : 75166,2544 | | ARPA: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider@nosc.mil GENIE : sschneider | | INET: sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com APLINK.PE : <shrug> | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The RainForest @ 305-434-4927 / PO Box 841422, Pembroke Pines, Fl, 33084 | +===========================================================================+
lm03_cif@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Larry Moss) (10/19/89)
In article <4901@wpi.wpi.edu> spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: >>In article <4707@wpi.wpi.edu>, spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: >> To be blunt, your friend is a thief. Wonder if he'd feel differently if he >> were writing software. >> >> Or maybe painting pictures...and not getting paid for them. I agree completely. What's the difference between someone that spends hours carving a wood sculpture and someone rearranging the layout of little magnetic spots on a disk. The second one is just easier to copy, but I'm sure that everyone would agree that taking the first away is stealing. > Ahh.... I asked that very same question. His futile response was: > "I don't expect them to pay me... I don't care." > It sounds to me like your friend should be working for Richard Stallman at FSF (Free Software Foundation). Of course, RMS would insist that he stop using his Apple. > Continuing... > [ stuff about how copying software isn't stealing] > So far I have heard responses from ShareWare Programmers, how about > the end users' view? Well, I am a programmer now, and I have made a reasonable amount of money writing software, but for the first few years I had a my computer I only used stuff that other people wrote. So I hope you are willing to take my opinion as one of an end user. I feel the only copying that is justified (of things that are copy written) is for a short period of time to test stuff. I do believe it is fair for me to see if I like something first. If I don't like it, I erase it. If I do like it, I buy it. Now back to what I said before about FSF protesting Apple computer, I was wondering what people around here think about that. I've been following gnu.misc.discuss recently and even people that have been supporting FSF are starting to complain. In short, Stallman is smashing Macs as a protest against Apple's claim to the "look and feel" of the Mac. Is this along the lines of book burning? -- lm03_cif@uhura.cc.rochester.edu / CLARKE'S THIRD LAW: lmo3_ss@db1.cc.rochester.edu / Any sufficiently advanced technology is lmo3_ss@uordbv.bitnet / indistinguishable from magic.
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/19/89)
In article <4901@wpi.wpi.edu> spinner@wpi.wpi.edu (B. Wang) writes: > "Honestly, I feel that copying software is not stealing. > Stealing in my viewpoint is removing an material item. > So far I have heard responses from ShareWare Programmers, how about > the end users' view? Here's one: I think thieves should be SHOT. Your friend is indulging in rationalization; he wants to steal software so he makes himself believe that it is okay. No rational code of ethics would support him in this.
ART100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU ("Andy Tefft 862-6728", 814) (10/19/89)
> >I agree. >It has always amazed me that some people in the MS-DOS world can actually make >a comfortable living writing shareware. Maybe it's the general maturity level >of the type of user. The only shareware author I know of in the Apple world is >the author of Red Ryder. <Then again... the "type" of user (Mac versus // or >II) made that possible> And I believe he finally went commercial. This makes a lot of sense when you consider the user bases of Apple vs IBM & clones & mac. The Apple II has long been considered a hacker's machine. The mac has NEVER been that and the IBM very rarely. IBM users are more used to having to buy all their software, while Apple II users USED to do a lot of writing (until the GS, that is, when programs could get really fancy and it became more impossible to write anything "useful" without buying a compiler of one kind or another). I don't know ANYONE who writes programs for the Mac. And the only programming I've ever experienced on IBM's was in high school when the apples were replaced by pc's for BASIC programming. There used to be a LOT of PD software for the Apple - this was back around 1980 when I got 10 disks full of it with my //e (ok, got the //e around '83? but the software was dated from 1979 to 1982). Any of you in users groups out there are probably familiar with this stuff. But it's just not fancy. Anyway the point is just that it's hard to teach people with the general hacker mentality to buy software, just like it's hard to teach people with the general Mac mentality to write it!
jib@prism.TMC.COM (10/20/89)
RE: Shareware -- a User's View
As a user, I totally support paying a shareware author if you use his
program. To do anything else is immature and immoral as well as illegal
and short-sighted.
If many people had your "friend's" attitude there would simply be NO
shareware -- any many useful, worthwhile programs have been produced as
shareware -- in fact, many utility programs don't have a large enough
potential market to sell any other way.
Shareware is a good concept -- you get to try a program and only pay for
it if you find it useful. As a user, I really like the concept!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Block jib@prism.TMC.COM
{mit-eddie, pyramid, harvard!wjh12, xait, datacube}!mirror!prism!jib
Matthew Bender Inc, 11 Penn Plaza, NY, NY 10001 (212) 216-8018fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (10/20/89)
In article <3385@ur-cc.UUCP>, lm03_cif@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Larry Moss) writes: > > Now back to what I said before about FSF protesting Apple computer, I was > wondering what people around here think about that. I've been following > gnu.misc.discuss recently and even people that have been supporting FSF > are starting to complain. In short, Stallman is smashing Macs as a > protest against Apple's claim to the "look and feel" of the Mac. Is this > along the lines of book burning? Stallman is a fanatic. While the GNU project is in many ways a worthy effort, Stallman & Co. have taken their position far beyond reason. I don't see any differnce between what he's doing and burning books. Or throwing tantrums. ------------ "...I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing: and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." - Petronius Arbiter, 210 B.C.
fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (10/20/89)
In article <8910191002.aa11463@SMOKE.BRL.MIL>, ART100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU ("Andy Tefft 862-6728", 814) writes: > > > >I agree. > >It has always amazed me that some people in the MS-DOS world can actually make > >a comfortable living writing shareware. Maybe it's the general maturity level > >of the type of user. The only shareware author I know of in the Apple world is > >the author of Red Ryder. <Then again... the "type" of user (Mac versus // or > >II) made that possible> And I believe he finally went commercial. > > This makes a lot of sense when you consider the user bases of Apple > vs IBM & clones & mac. > > The Apple II has long been considered a hacker's machine. The mac > has NEVER been that and the IBM very rarely. You must be running around in different neighborhoods than me. Lots of hackers in just about every camp. Almost no shareware at all in the Commodore camp (the theft rate is astronomical). And as they graduate to the Amiga, you find the rate climbing there, too. But still lots of hackers around the Amiga. (An interesting, if flawed, machine. I think it's the real spiritual heir to the Apple //.) The Mac, btw, has gotten lots of people writing their own applications in HyperCard. A *real* equivalent on the //gs would be very interesting. PC's and PS's are too boring (to me) to even investigate. > Anyway the point is just that it's hard to teach people with the general > hacker mentality to buy software, just like it's hard to teach people > with the general Mac mentality to write it! But not impossible. And when you do, the overall quality of the applications tend to be very good. It just takes an enormous effort to get to a useful state of ability. ------------ "...I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing: and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." - Petronius Arbiter, 210 B.C.
lvirden@pro-tcc.UUCP (Larry Virden) (10/20/89)
Network Comment: to #1322 by sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com
Some other shareware authors in the Apple world are Jason Harper - SHRConvert
for the GS (note that Jason is going commercial... sigh), Don Elton (sysop
of pro-carolina) - who turned one commercial shareware product into private
commercial (Talk is Cheap!) and two into freeware! (ECP8 and ECP16),
info-apple's own Dave Lyons (nifty list, davex, etc). These are 3 relatively
successful folks. But private commercial (where the author sells things
themselve thru their own business/homes) like Don Elton and Glen Bredon are
becoming more common.
--
Larry W. Virden ProLine: pro-tcc!lvirden
674 Falls Place Work: lvirden@cas.bitnet
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614 Aline: LVIRDEN
CIS: 75046,606unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/20/89)
In article <126538@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes: >Almost no shareware at all in the Commodore camp (the theft rate is >astronomical). And as they graduate to the Amiga, you find the rate >climbing there, too. But still lots of hackers around the Amiga. (An >interesting, if flawed, machine. I think it's the real spiritual heir >to the Apple //.) Actually one of my housemates {translation: one of two people who live in this apartment but is not my roommate} works at Apple and has an Amiga for his own use. (By the way, his roommate and good friend works for IBM and they say they both call each other from work FREQUENTLY. God... I wonder what the higher ups would say about that! hehehe.. They both say everyone that finds out that two good friends work at Apple and IBM make the "wow but they hate each other" kind of joke...like I did when I first talked to them)....God, too much about my personal life...sorry.. But onto the real point. One thing my housemate (with the Amiga) said was that most of the people he knows with Amigas "grew up" on the Apple II. So maybe if Apple had given a little more a little more quickly they would have stayed. [HEY I LIKE THE NEW SYSTEM UPDATES AND IF THAT GS LAPTOP COMES OUT I WILL ALSO TAKE BACK MOST BAD THINGS I'VE SAID ABOUT APPLE] Heh...One final note on the situation in this apartment...Forgetting things like stereos, a TV, VCR, etc that's all worth a lot, in computers we currently have the following: My Apple //GS [gotta list it first!], a Mac somethingeruther (for housemate #1 to work on), an Amiga (always forget which one), an IBM pre-PS/II-somethingeruther (housemate #2s), and an IBM PS/2 80 (guessing on the last #...For housemate#2 to work on)...For 4 people total, we have FIVE computers...and my roommate doesn't even have one! heh... ----- unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu
joseph@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Seymour Joseph) (10/21/89)
User point of view: Whenever I use a shareware product and decide to keep it and use it again, I pay the author. The fees are usually very reasonable. Seymour
sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com (The RainForest BBS) (10/21/89)
Comment to message from: m2c!wpi!spinner@husc6.harvard.edu (B. Wang) Your friend is an anal retentive... you would do well to find other friends. /steve +===========================================================================+ | UUCP: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider COMPU$ERVE : 75166,2544 | | ARPA: crash!pro-exchange!sschneider@nosc.mil GENIE : sschneider | | INET: sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com APLINK.PE : <shrug> | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The RainForest @ 305-434-4927 / PO Box 841422, Pembroke Pines, Fl, 33084 | +===========================================================================+
delton@pro-exchange.cts.com (Don Elton) (10/22/89)
Comment to message from: sschneider@pro-exchange.cts.com (The RainForest BBS)
Talk is Cheap had about 1500 shareware registrations (at $30 each) back when
it was shareware but it's gone the way of Red Ryder now as a commercial
product too. I wouldn't recommend shareware to anyone expecting to make money
off something as too few people do it. I think TIC was pretty successful as
shareware... certainly more successful than 99.9% of shareware at least but
still not as successful as it would have been as a commercial product from the
start probably (assuming I had the $$ to promote the software as commercial
from the start which I didn't).
UUCP: [ sdcsvax nosc ] !crash!pro-carolina!delton
ARPA: crash!pro-carolina!delton@nosc.mil
INET: delton@pro-carolina.cts.com
Pro-Carolina: 803-776-3936 (300-2400 baud, login as 'register')
US Mail: 3207 Berkeley Forest Drive, Columbia, SC 29209-4111
CIS: 72010,37 MCI: 351-9930 GEnie: delton