MIKEL@TOPS20.RADC.AF.MIL (10/19/89)
Okay, so I haven't picked up System 5.0 yet. There is only one dealer
near me and the II GS isn't exactly where he places his emphasis. I
called them last week to check on getting the update, and was quoted the
price for buying the disks with the docs. After convincing three people
that yes, I really did mean I wanted to copy the disks for free, I was
told that that wasn't really legal. In all fairness, this was the first
time that anyone at this store (part of the Computer Factory chain, this
one in New Hartford NY) actually took time to talk with me about the II
GS. Usually they quickly pass you to someone else. Anyhow, that day the
November A+/Incider came out with a review of System 5.0 and a line about
any dealer worth his authorization making copies for free. That didn't
impress them. They thought it made it sound like a lot of dealers were
doing it. (Aren't they?). So what I need is some indication that Apple
doesn't mind the free distribution (if they don't). And if, in fact, it
is a matter left up to individual dealers, then I'd like to identify this
store as one of the less-than-supportive ones for anyone paying attention
or keeping tabs.
Thank you for your support.
==========================================================================
Russell Mikel "And you will never know, my son,
on how little real knowledge the world is run."
==========================================================================
-------rankins@zaire.crd.ge.com (raymond r rankins) (10/20/89)
In article <12535140848.16.MIKEL@TOPS20.RADC.AF.MIL> MIKEL@TOPS20.RADC.AF.MIL writes: >that yes, I really did mean I wanted to copy the disks for free, I was >told that that wasn't really legal. In all fairness, this was the first >time that anyone at this store (part of the Computer Factory chain, this >one in New Hartford NY) actually took time to talk with me about the II >GS. Usually they quickly pass you to someone else. Anyhow, that day the >... >is a matter left up to individual dealers, then I'd like to identify this >store as one of the less-than-supportive ones for anyone paying attention >or keeping tabs. > >========================================================================== >Russell Mikel "And you will never know, my son, > on how little real knowledge the world is run." >========================================================================== I too, have not been too impressed with Computer Factory (the one here in Albany, NY) in regards to their Apple II support. None of the sales people their ever seem to know anything about the Apple II line. One salesperson didn't even know that there was an upgrade to the IIGS operating system. Needless to say, I didn't even bother to ask if I could make a copy of System 5.0. Many kudos, however, to Castle Computers in Latham, NY. I stopped in their store the other day and asked if they had System 5.0 and the salesman said "We don't have the package for sale in yet, but if you have some blank disks you can copy our copy". They even gave me the new tutorial disk to copy. From the amount of II peripherals and software in stock, it seems that this store still supports the Apple II. They even had their IIGS display right in front of the store, first thing you see when you walk in. It looks like I found the dealer I'm going to be going to in the future. Just felt the need to put in a plug for a good dealer (so so hard to find nowadays). Ray Ray Rankins | (518) 387-7340 INTERNET: rankins@zaire.crd.ge.com | USNAIL: 2 Moonglow Rd. COMPUSERVE: 71131,3236 | Gansevoort, NY 12831 <insert standard disclaimer here>
sysop@pro-generic.cts.com (Matthew Montano) (10/20/89)
Network Comment: to #6372 by MIKEL@tops20.radc.af.mil Although Apple Canada still hasn't sent my dealership any version of System Software 5.0 (to my knowledge)... we (as an Apple Canada authorized dealer) are instructed to copy the system software for a //gs and Macintosh to any customer who has purchased the computer off of us. They imply that we should do it for any customer, as it promotes "customer satisfaction". In my store, I have my own masters of System Software 5.0 for the //gs, System 6.03 for the Mac.. and instructions for any of my staff on how to copy these disks for customers. I distribute System Software 5.0 to customers who bring in any blank disks, I don't bother to check to see if they have their old "original System Software diskettes", cause that's a bloody waste of time. If they don't ahve a //gs, they can't use the disks I give them anyways. Oh, my store is CompuCentre Sherway Gardens, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. UUCP: crash!pro-generic!sysop ARPA: crash!pro-generic!sysop@nosc.mil INET: sysop@pro-generic.cts.com
phack@pnet02.gryphon.com (Phil Hackett) (10/21/89)
Don't post dealers that support Apple II's on the net! Apple Corporation may
get word of this and then ax that dealer. Apple is doing as much as possible,
without publicity, to kill the II. Actions speak louder than words.
Phil
UUCP: {ames!elroy, <routing site>}!gryphon!pnet02!phack
INET: phack@pnet02.gryphon.comkrb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (10/22/89)
And everyone wonders where the "demise of the Apple II" crap comes from.
I guess some people are entitled to their opinion. Here's mine:
setenv FLAMES = ON
What (?)
actions are you talking about, the ones that speak louder than words? Could
it be the new GS, the new Operating System, good support in this notesfile
from some good people, and spirit? Probably not. It can only be the reports
of bad Apple II dealers, the fact that, for some reason, Apple is supporting
the Mac, and that the GS doesn't have a 33Mhz 65832 standard?
That must be it. If someone would take the time to read some explanations
of Apple's actions, it MAY make sense! As far as support is concerned, I've
gotten all the support I need, considering I haven't had any problems at
all since I bought my GS a year ago. I'd prefer a Mac IIci if I chose between
it and a GS, sure. But the price difference is, say, nine times my annual
income.
I think Apple is making some mistakes, but nothing to warrant complete
attack. If this was the prevailing opinion, the Mac would never exist. And
there are some very good arguments for it's existence. And if Apple supported
the II line to death to calm down all the lunatics out there, it would be a
$10,000 base machine that few could afford. It'd then be down the drain.
If Apple's "lack of support" can be brought to notice, is "Apple bites
*!@&!" a correct stimulus for correction? No.
setenv FLAMES = off
InterNet: krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Ken Brownfield
or : krb1517@uxf.cso.uiuc.edu | 1010 South Second
PLATO: ken brownfield/unialum/cerl | Champaign, IL, 61820.
or : brownfield/dialup/cerl | 1-217-384-6964
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm 17 years old, a Sophomore Computer Engineer at the University of Illinois,
and proud of it. If I my opinions are not those of the U of I, they're
out of luck. They're the ones giving away 6,000 signons a year!jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") (10/23/89)
gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso\ writes: > And everyone wonders where the "demise of the Apple II" crap comes from. > I guess some people are entitled to their opinion. Here's mine: > > setenv FLAMES = ON > > What (?) > actions are you talking about, the ones that speak louder than words? Could > it be the new GS, the new Operating System, good support in this notesfile > from some good people, and spirit? Probably not. It can only be the reports > of bad Apple II dealers, the fact that, for some reason, Apple is supporting > the Mac, and that the GS doesn't have a 33Mhz 65832 standard? My complaint to Apple is extremely valid: MPW has been developed on the Mac for 5 years; APW for the Apple //GS was thrown together in a few months and is no longer supported. From a users point of view, the GS is not in bgad straits. From a developer's point of view, Apple has been very lax. My complaints involve no HFS or Dos 3.3 FST, no supported native-system development system (Claris uses the MPW X-compiler) nor any plans to make one, no support for high density drives.... At my university, I am surrounded by Macs and the attention that is given them. If Apple showed half the concern it does for the Mac to the Apple //GS, then it would be a much more stable and powerful machine, regardless of its 2.5 MHz processor. I am having enough trouble trying to find a copy of GS/OS 5.0.2., but rest assured I can get the latest Mac system disk in quantity. and this is Not a flame, this is the way it is. I have started a users group to try and make a change, but it is slow going. Apple could help us a lot if it wanted to... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Jeremy Mereness | Support | Disclaimer: | | jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my | | r746jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software | opinions, alone. | | a student at Carnegie Mellon U. | | Void where prohibited. | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (10/23/89)
Network Comment: to #12018 by gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!krb20699@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
{> What (?)actions are you talking about, the ones that speak louder
> than words? Could it be the new GS, the new Operating System,
> good support in this notesfile from some good people, and spirit?
> Probably not. It can only be the reports of bad Apple II dealers,
> the fact that, for some reason, Apple is supporting the Mac, and
> that the GS doesn't have a 33Mhz 65832 standard?
Perhaps there isn't enough clarification on the part of those who have
complained about Apple. We are not complaining about Apple II supporters,
but rather the higher ups who don't seem to recognize the Apple II
anymore.
As for the new GS, Apple didn't even consider it an upgrade (something
like: the minor changes don't warrant the cost of an upgrade)... so why
should we?
True, it loads System 5.0 a little quicker and it does come with 1MEG,
but that pretty much covers all the MAJOR features.
Mark Munzmattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (10/23/89)
In article <21147@gryphon.COM> phack@pnet02.gryphon.com (Phil Hackett) writes: >Don't post dealers that support Apple II's on the net! Apple Corporation may >get word of this and then ax that dealer. Apple is doing as much as possible, >without publicity, to kill the II. Actions speak louder than words. > >Phil > >UUCP: {ames!elroy, <routing site>}!gryphon!pnet02!phack >INET: phack@pnet02.gryphon.com Well, Phil, what can I say? You got us cold. You've figured Apple out. All the millions of dollars spent in development of the Apple II Video Overlay Card, System Software 5.0.2 and the revisions to the Apple IIgs and IIc, as well as the addition of AppleTalk networking to the Apple II line has all been a giant sting operation. We developed all this stuff, thorougly documented it, and continue to promote it through offers (like this Christmas's "Take home a IIgs free for two months" promotion) just so we can track all the dealers who sell this technology to enrich the lives of their customers, so we can pull the plug on them and force them through some legal means I don't quite understand to sell products to people who don't want them. Don't spread this around, though, or other people will figure it out. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that Amer. Online: Matt DTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its ThisNet: mattd@apple.com | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, ThatNet: (stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | have any opinion on any subject." Other mail by request only, please. | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (10/23/89)
In article <MZETHCe00VQDE2xhUL@andrew.cmu.edu> jm7e+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Jeremy G. Mereness") writes: > >My complaint to Apple is extremely valid: MPW has been developed on >the Mac for 5 years; APW for the Apple //GS was thrown together in a >few months and is no longer supported. > Excuse me, but APW is still entirely supported. In fact, version 2.0 is currently in development, and this fact has been announced since this past May. Although the shell has not been updated, the supporting tools have been consistently updated throughout the GS lifetime, including a new APW tools and interfaces package currently at APDA--tools from APW 2.0 being made available even though APW 2.0 is not completed. >From a users point of view, the GS is not in bgad straits. From a >developer's point of view, Apple has been very lax. My complaints >involve no HFS or Dos 3.3 FST, no supported native-system development >system (Claris uses the MPW X-compiler) nor any plans to make one, no >support for high density drives.... > We had far, FAR many more requests from developers for AppleShare support in GS/OS than we have for either an HFS FST or a DOS 3.3 FST. We have supported those developers who take the time to talk to us as best we can. We also continue to support APW with new tools and languages (such as the Rez compiler). >At my university, I am surrounded by Macs and the attention that is >given them. If Apple showed half the concern it does for the Mac to >the Apple //GS, then it would be a much more stable and powerful >machine, regardless of its 2.5 MHz processor. I am having enough >trouble trying to find a copy of GS/OS 5.0.2., but rest assured I can >get the latest Mac system disk in quantity. > This surprises me. The latest Macintosh System Software is 6.0.4, released just a few weeks ago. 5.0.2 hasn't even gotten out to all the dealers yet; the developers should all have it by now though. >and this is Not a flame, this is the way it is. I have started a users >group to try and make a change, but it is slow going. Apple could help >us a lot if it wanted to... > If you have complaints on the way Apple has supported it's developers (as you say above) that you've sent to Apple and Apple has not responded, I want to hear about them. >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >| Jeremy Mereness | Support | Disclaimer: | >| jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my | >| r746jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software | opinions, alone. | >| a student at Carnegie Mellon U. | | Void where prohibited. | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that Amer. Online: Matt DTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its ThisNet: mattd@apple.com | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, ThatNet: (stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | have any opinion on any subject." Other mail by request only, please. | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
lbotez@pnet02.gryphon.com (Lynda Botez) (10/23/89)
Welcome back to the net, Matt. I suppose it took an earthquake to get you back here... :-) Matt Deatherage writes: >All the millions of dollars spent in development on the Apple II Video >Overlay Card , System Software 5.0.2 and the revisions to the Apple IIgs and >IIc, as well as the addition to Appletalk networking to the Apple II line has >all been a giant sting operation [sarcastic smirk omitted]. Matt we really appreciate the things you guys have done, especially to the System Software. I'm sure the school's appreciated the Overlay card, and Appletalk networking (though I doubt any of of the home users could care too much abut these endeavors...). The Apple IIc development was probably a waste of time... -:). However, how about shifting some of that graphics technology that was developed for the Apple II Video Overlay Card to the machine itself? How about built-in stereo? And what about speed? This is basically what we want. Graphics, sound and speed. The technology is available. We WANT an upgrade.... Maybe what's wrong here is this statement: >Most of our Apple II Customers say they prefer added functionality without >having to buy a new machine, and this is what we've been trying to deliver. Who are these customers? What prevented Apple from releasing the Apple IIgs in the first place? (I'm sure the IIe people sang the same song.) I doubt most people would complain about paying for a motherswap swap to acquire the Graphics, Sound and Speed that should have been on the machine in the first place. Lynda UUCP: {ames!elroy, <routing site>}!gryphon!pnet02!lbotez INET: lbotez@pnet02.gryphon.com
farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (10/24/89)
In article <12535140848.16.MIKEL@TOPS20.RADC.AF.MIL> MIKEL@TOPS20.RADC.AF.MIL writes: >[another dealer horror story deleted...] So what I need is some >indication that Apple >doesn't mind the free distribution (if they don't). Go for it. >Russell Mikel "And you will never know, my son, > on how little real knowledge the world is run." Cary Farrier -- +--------------+-------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | farrier@apple.com | +--------------+-------------------------+
UD161733@VM1.NODAK.EDU (Joe Carlin) (10/24/89)
But our question is, WHEN will an HFS FST come out then? Tomorrow? Right after the third world war? Are you currently developing one? I know there must be hundreds if not thousands of people out there wanting one. If every one of those people who wanted one sent you just one piece of mail, you'd be reading messages until the second coming.
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (10/24/89)
Network Comment: to #12045 by mattd@apple.com
{Subject: Re: Dealers and Sys. 5.0
>All the millions of dollars spent in development of the Apple II Video
> Overlay Card, System Software 5.0.2 and the revisions to the Apple...
>well as the addition of AppleTalk networking to the Apple II line ....
>a giant sting operation.
Matt, what about those rumors that Apple had the Apple II Video Overlay
Card for a number of years before it released it? I'm not saying they're
true.. but if there is any hint of truth, it makes me wonder..
And sorry, I still don#4consider the new IIgs a true revision. A few
years back, a revision (Rev B motherboards of IIe's) weren't even
announced, now all of a sudden, it's a big deal..
That's not to get on your case, or Dave's or any of the folks that are
still fighting for the Apple II. We know you're working hard.. it's just
that Apple Inc. doesn't look like it cares..
I hope I'm mistaken.. and I truly hope the "new" GS wasn't the machine
Sculley was talking about. I truly hope Apple Inc. sees the Apple II
machine as a viable source of income that needs to be supported both
by internal support (aka DTS) and by advertising.
Mark Munzhartkopf@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Jeff Hartkopf) (10/24/89)
In article <21253@gryphon.COM> lbotez@pnet02.gryphon.com (Lynda Botez) writes: >This is basically what we want. Graphics, sound and speed. The technology is >available. We WANT an upgrade.... Isn't that what the Apple IIGS was supposed to stand for? If I recall ^^ correctly, when I purchased my GS it was advertized as standing for "graphics, speed, and sound"--in that order. :-) Jeff Hartkopf Internet: hartkopf@tramp.Colorado.EDU
krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (10/24/89)
Like I said. There are many reasons for a lot of what Apple did. No-one
seems to want to verify their flames before letting them out. Like Matt said,
if you have complaints, don't just post hate-notes, and describe your reasons
only if you're challenged. Complain to someone who can do something.
I am also in a large environment full of Macs (mostly IIs) and PS/2s,
with no IIs to be found. It frustrates me, too. But I see the University
of Illinois' reasoning (in my case) for this. They get discounts on the stuff
they buy, so why not get the "better," higher-priced stuff, e.g. Mac IIcis
and PS/2 Model 70s. I also believe that the GS could fit in, and I'd really
love to be CEO of Apple Computer Inc. (I don't know how people would agree,
though :-) to make some changes, but I'm not. I don't disagree enough with
Apple's policies to file a complaint.
The only computer I've ever owned is an Apple II. Don't think I have
it out for the II, I really like the machines, but even though a lot of
complaints fly around comp.sys.apple, and the other nets, they rarely make
it to the correct people. I'm not sure exactly what powers Dave Lyons and
Matt Deatherage have on this issue, but two people in a corporation as large
as Apple who have to deal with vague "this is bad" comments is not my idea
of a good form of user feedback.
InterNet: krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Ken Brownfield
or : krb1517@uxf.cso.uiuc.edu | 1010 South Second
PLATO: ken brownfield/unialum/cerl | Champaign, IL, 61820.
or : brownfield/dialup/cerl | 1-217-384-6964
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm 17 years old, a Sophomore Computer Engineer at the University of Illinois,
and proud of it. If I my opinions are not those of the U of I, they're
out of luck. They're the ones giving away 6,000 signons a year!huang@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (Howard Huang) (10/27/89)
Apple is DEFINITELY putting more into their Macs than their IIs. I don't know about elsewhere (I believe it's nationwide), but Harvard sells Macintoshes to students for hefty discounts. Many students who buy computers here only use them for word processing, which they could do just as well on a II instead of a Mac. But because of Apple's marketing, they end up with the Mac anyway. If Apple offered the IIgs at educational discounts and advertised it more prominently, I'll bet the IIgs would sell pretty well. Especially with the color graphics and games like Dungeon Master. Howard huang@husc4.harvard.edu