Les_Ferch@MTSG.UBC.CA (12/04/89)
After logging onto Pro-Beagle and downloading some software I decided to write the following note and post it on Pro-Beagle. I have posted it here as well for anyone interested in the Beagle oldies. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for providing the old Beagle classics on-line. I downloaded three files, d.code.shk, pro.byter.shk, and beagle.bag.shk and noticed a few problems: 1. D.code.shk contained two Shrinkit files, the first was the D.Code disk which contained both ProDOS and DOS 3.3 files and the second was a copy of PRODOS DOUBLE-TAKE. If I wanted Double-Take, I would have downloaded the file double.take.shk. For the sake of others who do not wish to waste their time and long-distance money, please remove Double-Take fromm the D.Code file. 2. The Pro-Byter program is a dissapointment. It seems to only provide a 40 column display, but worse is that it has HARD CODED pathnames in many of the programs. I spent an hour or so going through the files to get rid of this example of bad programming practise. Hard-coded pathnames should be removed from all Beagle ware, so that people with 3.5" and hard drives can run these things easily. I know the software is unsupported, but this is a simple fix that should be done to preserve Beagle Bros. good reputation. 3. The programs D.Code and Double.Take are easily the best programs posted, but they are somewhat limited in usefulness without GPLE. Since you sell Program Writer, its pretty silly for someone to want to buy GPLE, so why not post it on Pro-Beagle as well? But, perhaps you're worried that a free GPLE will cut into Program Writer sales? 4. Your BBS should have stated that XMODEM is the protocol being used, so we don't have to guess at our ends. Better yet, would be to provide ZMODEM protocol, as one can only get about 60% efficiency with XMODEM, but ZMODEM provides 80-90% efficiency. 5. I own a number of Beagle products, and I would only want to download programs that I have if they are newer versions. However, the version number and/or date is not included in the file list. It would help a lot if it was. 6. A lot of Beagle programs are obvious to operate, but some of the best ones (such as D.Code and Double-Take) are not. Without manuals these programs are very difficult to figure out. All that is really needed, is a short text file included in the archive of each program that lists any non-obvious things like which keys to press to invoke a certain function. 7. Many people do not have 5.25" drives anymore. The archives of ProDOS stuff should be Shrinkit FILE archives instead of whole disk archives. I was forced to use a friend's Apple II to dearchive because my IIgs *only* has a 3.5" drive and a hard drive. 8. Most people use ProDOS these days and have no need or desire for the DOS 3.3 versions of Beagle programs. It would be very helpful if you separated the archives so that ProDOS files are separate from DOS 3.3 files. IN SUMMARY, I SUGGEST THE FOLLOWING CHANGES TO THE PRO-BEAGLE POSTINGS: 1. Separate D.Code from Double.Take please. 2. Remove hard-coded pathnames from programs such as Pro-Byter. 3. Post GPLE please. 4. State that XMODEM is being used and support ZMODEM if possible. 5. Post the version number and/or revision date in the file list. 6. Include a text file of instructions for programs like D.Code. 7. Archive all ProDOS programs as FILE archives, NOT disk archives. 8. Separate DOS 3.3 stuff from ProDOS stuff. For example: d33.dub.take.shk d33.d.code.shk d33.extra.k.shk pro.dub.take.shk pro.d.code.shk pro.extra.k.shk If the above suggestions were made, it would have only taken me 5 minutes to download the ProDOS D.CODE instead of 20 minutes. I'm sure everybody would appreciate being able to save that much time and money. The above changes should only take someone a few hours to do. I'd be glad to do the work myself if I was in a local calling area, but alas, I'm calling from Canada. I know there is no direct profit in making the above changes, but for the sake of customers like myself who have supported you and for the sake of maintaining a good reputation (which *could* possibly help sales) it should be done. Les Ferch Internet: Les_Ferch@mtsg.ubc.ca UBC PC Support Centre Bitnet: USERLSF@UBCMTSG Vancouver, B.C.
blochowi@rt8.cs.wisc.edu (Jason Blochowiak) (12/05/89)
In article <1937063@mtsg.ubc.ca> Les_Ferch@MTSG.UBC.CA writes: > [LOTS of stuff deleted] >7. Many people do not have 5.25" drives anymore. The archives of >ProDOS stuff should be Shrinkit FILE archives instead of whole disk >archives. I was forced to use a friend's Apple II to dearchive >because my IIgs *only* has a 3.5" drive and a hard drive. Uh, last time I checked, ShrinkIt could UnShrink 5.25" disk images to 3.5" disks (or an 800k /RAM5) - I believe Andy put this feature in for people specifically in your situation. Although I agree that things should be archived as files whenever possible (me, I don't even like to bother with 3.5" disks), did you even try to UnShrink the disks on your machine? Speaking of ShrinkIt - anyone seen beta versions of SI/GS yet? Oh, Disclaimer: This is going from my memory, which, as more than two people are aware of, is not perfect... >Les Ferch Internet: Les_Ferch@mtsg.ubc.ca -- Jason Blochowiak - blochowi@garfield.cs.wisc.edu or jason@madnix.uucp "Education, like neurosis, begins at home." - Milton R. Sapirstein
ericmcg@pro-generic.cts.com (Eric Mcgillicuddy) (12/06/89)
In-Reply-To: message from Les_Ferch@MTSG.UBC.CA More will likely respond by the time you see this however...... These programs are free, one of the provisos is that they are no longer supported. Therefor, if they are flawed it is up to you to correct that. Docs take time to enter, ask a user, like myself, how to use them. I paid $30CAN for Dcode and it has paid for itself twice over, getting it for $1.50 or so ($.28/hr after midnight) means it pays off faster. The rest makes sense, I would add that d/l time be posted (estimated) and size in bytes for those like myself foolish enough not to format their disks ahead of time.
nicholaA@batman.moravian.EDU (Andy Nicholas) (12/07/89)
*** Please do not take this as a flame, it is not *** In article <1937063@mtsg.ubc.ca>, Les_Ferch@MTSG.UBC.CA writes: > 4. Your BBS should have stated that XMODEM is the protocol being > used, so we don't have to guess at our ends. Better yet, would be > to provide ZMODEM protocol, as one can only get about 60% efficiency > with XMODEM, but ZMODEM provides 80-90% efficiency. pro-beagle is run by ProLine. ProLine currently does not now, nor is it likely in the future to, provide ZMODEM as long as it can run on Apple IIe's. I certainly not an authority on this subject as I've never seriously considered the feasibility of implementing ZMODEM, but I've been told many times by Mrogan Davis, the developer of ProLine, that attempting such would be a horrendous task, if not impossible. The best ProLine will probably do is Ymodem and 4modem support, but not ZMODEM only due to its sheer complexity of design. Morgan Davis and Don Elton can probably comment on this far better than I could ever hope to... > 7. Many people do not have 5.25" drives anymore. The archives of > ProDOS stuff should be Shrinkit FILE archives instead of whole disk > archives. I was forced to use a friend's Apple II to dearchive > because my IIgs *only* has a 3.5" drive and a hard drive. I may not know much about ZMODEM, but I do know what shrinkit is and is not capable of doing. If you attempt to unshrink a 5.25" disk onto a 3.5" drive, shrinkit will fix the bitmap and block count so that the disk you unpacked becomes a perfectly proper 3.5" ProDOS disk. Most people have one or the other types of drives (3.5" or 5.25"), so I don't think it unreasonable to put ProDOS files on a 5.25" disk. Packing file-by-file is usually far preferable to packing by the whole disk, but it's not something that's essential due to issues of "I have this type of disk drive and you do not..." In short, you weren't forced to do anything. That feature has been included with ShrinkIt since about version 1.0 (since like March or April of this year), so unless you're using version 0.95 or earlier (please, no!) then everything should have been just peachy for you. Read the documentation. It's been documented there since version 1.0 andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie, AM-Online: shrinkit Box 435, Moravian College CompuServe: 70771,2615 Bethlehem, PA 18018 InterNET: shrinkit@moravian.edu
nicholaA@batman.moravian.EDU (Andy Nicholas) (12/07/89)
In article <3949@puff.cs.wisc.edu>, blochowi@rt8.cs.wisc.edu (Jason Blochowiak) writes: > Speaking of ShrinkIt - anyone seen beta versions of SI/GS yet? I'll post to the net when beta versions go out. They haven't been sent out yet as I'm awaiting a confirmation from Andy McFadden that the new-style CRC's for the improved archive format are being generated correctly. Last I heard, they weren't. I sent Andy a test archive to check to be sure that they are generated correctly now. If everything checks out, i'll send out test versions of shrinkit gs whenever my work load lightens up enough for me to do so. It's the week before finals, otherwise known as "crunch-time" here at the college... > Jason Blochowiak - blochowi@garfield.cs.wisc.edu or jason@madnix.uucp andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie, AM-Online: shrinkit Box 435, Moravian College CompuServe: 70771,2615 Bethlehem, PA 18018 InterNET: shrinkit@moravian.edu
jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut) (12/08/89)
In-Reply-To: message from Les_Ferch@MTSG.UBC.CA Les Ferch wrote a lot of stuff, which I won't repeat here. I'll separate D-Code from Double-Take. Sorry about the goof. In the transfer section, I'll add the note to use 128 Xmodem/Checksum, AE/ProDOS mode. ProLine does not support Zmodem. The manuals for the some of the old stuff are on 8" disks for some type of Linotronic machine, not easily portable to ProDOS text format. They will be rekeyed and made available on pro-beagle, but not anytime soon. The disks will stay in ShrinkIt disk format, with both ProDOS and DOS 3.3 versions (where applicable) stored in the same file. Management wants them distributed in whole, in the same format as originally distributed (5.25" disks only.) GPLE has not been posted (yet) because it was originally licensed from Neil Konzen, who doesn't work for us. If/when we get permission from Neil, it will be made available. Someone else asked about Power Print; I'll post it tomorrow if there's a time when someone isn't downloading one of the Beagle Oldies at 300 baud. (It was pretty busy today.) If you want the hard-coded pathnames removed from programs like Pro-Byter, do it yourself; better yet, buy Program Writer to help you do it. :-) I'm sure I have a list of version numbers & revision dates around the office somewhere; I'll add that information and the file lengths to the file list when I get a chance. For those who were still wondering, ProLine doesn't support FTP. It would be a neat trick for the Apple IIe, though. The files are too large to mail, either in text format or with ProLine's binary rcp transfer. Someone asked about getting the old stuff through Beagle Buddies; BBuds can, at their option, copy the programs for their user group people. Jeff Jungblut _______________________________________________________________ jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (preferred) | jeffj@pro-beagle.cts.com crash!pro-avalon!jeffj | crash!pro-beagle!jeffj