mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (11/30/89)
I guess Beagle's in trouble, Mark. [I address this to Mark Munz because I know he reads this group and I feel guilty for hitting him in the head with a Koosh ball at Boston AppleFest] They're on to you. Everyone's figured out the scam. I don't know how Mark Simonsen thought he could get away with it. Under the guise of pretending to be generous with older Beagle Utilities while still maintaining legal and version control, he allows them to be downloaded from the Beagle Bros. bulletin board, with no profit to Beagle. He must surely have realized that the savvy populace at large would divine that Beagle has a secret arrangement with all the long distance companies to get a percentage of the profits from the calls to pro-beagle, thereby netting Beagle a cool $1.79 cents (on average) per product as opposed to the much higher retail price he had previously been getting. We knew someone couldn't do something nice for us out of the goodness of his heart; it was only a matter of time before he'd be caught and exposed. I might suggest that Beagle consider allowing people to mail in blank disks and a $1 or $2 handling fee to obtain a copy of the software in question without calling pro-beagle. I would hope Beagle would adopt such an honorable solution before this unmitigated fraud upon our sensibilities ruins the reputation of a fine software company. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that Amer. Online: Matt DTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its ThisNet: mattd@apple.com | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, ThatNet: (stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | have any opinion on any subject." Other mail by request only, please. | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (12/01/89)
Erhm, folks, could we dro...wait.
setenv FLAME = on
Ok, Matt, your sarcasm hits the mark. Now I'd like to know where the
justification is. If you (plural, pro-beagle (no pun intended)) believe
that the AII community is bitching at something this trivial...
All I'd like to see is a SET ANSWER! Could someone PLEASE? I don't
give a tinker's biscuits what Beagle decides to do, just so they say it!
I have respect for everyone on the board, but this is getting rediculous.
If all _I_ get is bitching, I can have a perfect time reading rec.masochism.
I feel that the people who were involved in this discussion were asking
questions. If Beagle (and others, apparently) feel that this is an un-
justified attack, I'd really like to see AII DTS's policy statement ( or
at least smell it) and Beagle's view of their market!
Why on God's green earth can't this be dropped? If Beagle's policy
has been put down on paper, this will stop. I still don't know if posting
to InterNet (or others) is illegal through all this crap. People have been
bringing up good points for Beagle's policy. But people were only curious
as to alternatives, etc., not trying to tell everyone on earth were to part
their hair!!!
setenv FLAME = off
...p this subject, please?
Again a disclaimer. Nothing personal folks. I respect everyone in the
above, with this minor exception.
InterNet.......krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Ken Brownfield............
....or.........krb1517@uxf.cso.uiuc.edu | 1010 South Second, Rm 202.
...PLATO.......ken brownfield/unialum/cerl | Champaign, IL, 61820......
.....or........brownfield/dialup/cerl | (217) 384-6964............
=---------------------------------------------+------------------------------=
The University of Illinois gave me this signon, so I doubt I need a
. disclaimer. At least until finals week! {= .mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (12/03/89)
In article <113300198@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > >setenv FLAME = on > > Ok, Matt, your sarcasm hits the mark. Now I'd like to know where the >justification is. If you (plural, pro-beagle (no pun intended)) believe >that the AII community is bitching at something this trivial... > [stuff deleted] > >questions. If Beagle (and others, apparently) feel that this is an un- >justified attack, I'd really like to see AII DTS's policy statement ( or >at least smell it) and Beagle's view of their market! > >setenv FLAME = off > Ken, that's what I was not-so-gently poking fun at. Beagle, through the statement *required* to get to the oldies downloads in question on pro-beagle and through the statements of employees Mark Munz and Jeff, have *clearly* stated at least 10 times that I've read that the programs should not be uploaded to other online services. You can give them to friends but don't upload them. The statements in inCider and the catalog are obviously (to me) less specific than this because a reasonable person might believe you only have to give all the details to the people calling to download. When the question arose, Mark and Jeff professionally gave the missing specifics, only to receive massive complaints from people pointing to the less-specific statements and saying "It doesn't say that here!". Miss Manners would not be pleased. And as for the last part, please stop to think even during flames. (Said in good nature...:) Why on earth would Apple II Developer Technical Support have a "policy statement" on how Beagle Bros chooses to distribute their own software? I don't post the disclaimer that says these opinions are not Apple's at the end of every message because I like taking bandwidth, but even with it, some people still don't seem to want to believe that people who work at Apple can have opinions on subjects that Apple doesn't even care about, much less share the opinion. If people on the net continue were to consistently identify Apple employee opinion with Apple policy, we'd all get off the net pretty quick. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions expressed in this tome Send PERSONAL mail ONLY (please) to: | should not be construed to imply that Amer. Online: Matt DTS | Apple Computer, Inc., or any of its ThisNet: mattd@apple.com | subsidiaries, in whole or in part, ThatNet: (stuff)!ames!apple!mattd | have any opinion on any subject." Other mail by request only, please. | "So there." -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (12/04/89)
By specific policy statement, I meant from Beagle Inc. I saw Mark's
and other Beagle employees' statements of specific policy, but I didn't
know whether they were citing specific Beagle policy, i.e. "my opinions
are not those of the company I work for" clauses confused me. If they
_are_ citing specific policy, I'm really sorry. Sounds good to me, that's
all I wanted.
My analogy to Apple policy was that you were flaming at some people
for what I thought were less than hostile statements, and was mostly out
of, well, "flamingness." I wasn't connecting Beagle policy to Apple
policy if it came out that way. I think people were confused between
believing specific company statements and specific employee statements,
or only getting the company statement. I think it was mostly a misunder-
standing, not a callous AII community.
I don't think the AII community is a pure white satin sheet, but I don't
think it's as evil as it appears thru this Beagle shlock (I hope. ;-)
Ken.
ken-b@uiuc.eduSEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) (12/05/89)
On Thu, 30 Nov 89 07:18:37 GMT you said: >I might suggest that Beagle consider allowing people to mail in blank disks >and a $1 or $2 handling fee to obtain a copy of the software in question >without calling pro-beagle. As I read the detailed permission to copy info posted by Mark Munz it's quite clear that Beagle DOES NOT authorize distribution by network. Hence, unless we get something OFFICIAL from Beagle stating otherwise (a fax on Beagle's letterhead signed by someone I recognize as working there for instance) we will NOT distribute any of the Beagleware via APPLE2-L (even if someone sends us a copy). I urge anyone tempted to do so to NOT POST any of it to comp.binaries.apple2 either. The likely response of the UUCP backbone sites would be to terminate the group (whatever you may think individually, copyright violation is unacceptable to the authorities that make this happy net possible). On the other hand. The "you are free to distribute copies of these disks to your friends" would appear to permit distribution by user group librarians (Beagle Buddies for instance?). Would Mark (or someone else at Beagle) comment on 1. distribution to members by user groups, and 2. distribution by "national user groups" such as the Big Red Computer Club both of which charge only a copy and handling fee ($2.00 to $5.00)? /s Murph <Sewall%UConnVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu> [Internet] or ...{psuvax1 or mcvax}!uconnvm.bitnet!sewall [UUCP] + Standard disclaimer applies ("The opinions expressed are my own" etc.)
archer@hsi.UUCP (Garry Archer) (12/05/89)
In article <36884@apple.Apple.COM>, mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: > I might suggest that Beagle consider allowing people to mail in blank disks > and a $1 or $2 handling fee to obtain a copy of the software in question > without calling pro-beagle. I would hope Beagle would adopt such an honorable > solution before this unmitigated fraud upon our sensibilities ruins the > reputation of a fine software company. Hmmm, I never did get a response to a query I had a couple of weeks ago. I was concerned that without a modem hooked up to my Apple I couldn't take advantage of the Beagle offer. My request was similar to Matt's suggestion above. If Beagle make certain software "free" I would be willing to pay the cost of a disk and any shipping and handling. I just wondered if the reason Beagle may not do that is because of the labour and man-hours required for what could easily be a deluge of requests. Well... I'm still wondering! Anyone? -- Garry Archer Esq. {noao, yale, uunet}!hsi!archer -OR- archer@hsi.com Health Systems International, New Haven, Connecticut, U.S.A. "An Englishman never enjoys himself, except for a noble purpose." - A.P.Herbert
rich@pro-exchange.cts.com (Rich Sims) (12/06/89)
In-Reply-To: message from krb20699@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
> All I'd like to see is a SET ANSWER! Could someone PLEASE?
At least two people from Beagle Bros have specifically stated the restrictions
in messages to this newsgroup. How many answers do you (or anyone) need?
btw- Matt, thanks for your insight. We knew there was some nefarious plot
conceived by the devious and dastardly minds at BB, but it took DTS to uncover
the full, lurid details of their unholy conniving. That constitutes efforts
"above and beyond the call of duty" on your part!jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut) (12/08/89)
In-Reply-To: message from archer@hsi.UUCP > Hmmm, I never did get a response to a query I had a couple of weeks ago. > I was concerned that without a modem hooked up to my Apple I couldn't > take advantage of the Beagle offer. My request was similar to Matt's > suggestion above. If Beagle make certain software "free" I would be > willing to pay the cost of a disk and any shipping and handling. > > I just wondered if the reason Beagle may not do that is because of the > labour and man-hours required for what could easily be a deluge of requests. > > Garry Archer Esq. {noao, yale, uunet}!hsi!archer -OR- archer@hsi.com No, we won't accept blank disks and a shipping/handling fee. It would create too much work for our office. That's one of the reasons we have Beagle Buddies out there in user groups, helping keep our influx of TimeOut program update mail (nearly) under control. The programs may be freely distributed via user group libraries; the only limitation is that you don't upload them to another bulletin board or information service. Jeff Jungblut _______________________________________________________________ jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (preferred) | jeffj@pro-beagle.cts.com crash!pro-avalon!jeffj | crash!pro-beagle!jeffj
archer@hsi.UUCP (Garry Archer) (12/15/89)
In article <15261.apple.net@pro-avalon>, jeffj@pro-avalon.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut) writes: > No, we won't accept blank disks and a shipping/handling fee. It would create > too much work for our office. That's one of the reasons we have Beagle > Buddies out there in user groups, helping keep our influx of TimeOut program > update mail (nearly) under control. Hmmm, thought as much. Oh well, just to bad (for me). Anyway, thanks for your response! (Had to try, didn't I? :-) -- Garry Archer Esq. {noao, yale, uunet}!hsi!archer -OR- archer@hsi.com Health Systems International, New Haven, Connecticut, U.S.A. "An Englishman never enjoys himself, except for a noble purpose." - A.P.Herbert