toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (01/22/90)
w0033@desire.wright.edu writes: >The rumors about Apple spinning off the II line into another company (ala >Claris) has been floating around most of the BBSes in the Dayton area. And most >of the posts I have seen have been pro-split. Whether or not this would really >fix anything is hard to tell, but most people seem to think it would help. >There was one nomination of Steve Wozniak as president of the new company. I I heard Woz wouldn't do it; after all, he's a hacker, not a manager. One story went that he had a position in North CA somewhere teaching natural science and that he loved it too much. (No confirmation on that, though.) >would guess that the way Appple is handling things that they want the II line >to die quietly. They have lumped the GS and all II lines together so that the >high selling GS gets cut down by the lower volume C+ and others. I was looking This is because Apple's Marketing Department has, for the past few years, not realized what the Apple // was about. Now that the Mac is standing on its own they have got to realise that the old brochures are still partly right: If you want gobs of educational software, long-standing and loyal user groups, awesome sound (gs), and a low cost non-powerhouse, you want an Apple //. The original idea was to promote the Mac as the high end business machine, and the Apple as the Home & Education tradition. However, it seems that many people at Apple saw the Apple // as a threat to the Mac and as a dying liability, and Apple's head management is not helping. However, the recent rumors that all of Apple Marketing got fired are probably overstated, but the point is that Apple's got to re-position the // so it can co-exist with the Mac. I believe that this is possible. The fact that it is hackable (On which other machine can you have a cheap BASIC program up and running within half an hour?) and that it has a loyal customer base, and that it is still cheaper than the Macs in spite of Apple's brain dead pricing strategies, are all strong points which the Mac does not have. Another is the sound chip in the gs, and the cleaner tool box (not perfect but better). The best of all, believe it or not, is that the system is still designed around NTSC video and this should hint that the Apple // has potential for home video applications (the traditional Amiga market). HEY APPLE, MAKE A NEW GS (or whatever) THAT BLOWS THE AMIGA AWAY BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO GET A MARKET SHARE!!! This means a completely new chipset, but I have *NO* objections to that, after delving into the gs hardware a bit (you DON'T want to know how SHR actually works. Believe me.) >at the PC COmputing 500 from a year ago and it showed the GS is the #3 selling >slot, outselling all the Mac models and many of the IBM clones. Since that time This is true. However, many people have wanted more power and have had to put up with PC clones because their budget did not allow for Macs. >I'm sure sales have slowed thanks to Apple's aniti-II marketing. Why do they >keep shooting themselves in the foot? If the II line sells, they should >support it, not kill it. Because they need to be convinced that they _can_ support it WITHOUT HURTING THE MAC!!! (Jerry, could you forward this one? Edit it if you deem that necessary) Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (02/02/90)
In-Reply-To: message from ruzun@pro-sol.cts.com >I have developed //gs and mac software, and I prefer the Amigas >basic architecture, and I prefer the mac/applegs interface >guidelines. Each machine has its advantages, the apple stuff >has some of the best software, but its basic architecture is a >joke compared to the Amiga, a sad joke for whichg they charge >big $$$. While it's hardware architecture may be good, I've been told by folks (who have worked with Amigas) that the Operating System is a true nightmare. Mark Munz
ruzun@pro-sol.cts.com (Roger Uzun) (02/04/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com The OS is not a true nightmare on the Amiga. It has reentrant real time system calls that work well. It is more complex and unforgiving than other OS's, chances of causing a system crash through careless programming techniques are high, but once you understand it, it is powerful and works well. -Roger
paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) (02/04/90)
In-Reply-To: message from lsr@Apple.COM > Let's hear some specific areas where the Amiga is superior. I know this wasn't directed to me but I've got to reply with the first thing that came to my mind when I read this: The Amiga is a superior machine because there are more game titles produced and ported to the Amiga platform than there are for the Apple IIgs platform. I didn't buy my IIgs to program and I didn't buy it to write letters or publish newsletters. I bought it because I saw a buddy's machine and there were some really nice looking games for it. I bought a Sonic Blaster and some nice speakers and now I'm ready for Spectrum Holobyte to port Falcon over to my platform or for whover wrote Steel Thunder to do the same. When I visit Babbages or Software Etc I see rows and rows of Amiga and PC games. I'm lucky if I can find ten titles for the IIgs. Now some of the hard core types might think this is a silly reason to buy a computer when I could run out and get some Nintendo type of thing but I really like things like Harpoon and other super complex simulations and such. You just can't get those on a Nintendo. Nor can you get them on a IIgs. | UUCP: [ucsd, nosc] !crash!pro-europa!paul | "Ask not for whom Southwestern | | INET: paul@pro-europa.cts.com | Bell Telephone tolls, it tolls| | ARPA: crash!pro-europa!paul@nosc.mil | for me" (Support COSUARD) |
cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) (02/04/90)
In article <1361@crash.cts.com> paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) writes: > The Amiga is a superior machine because there are more game titles > produced and ported to the Amiga platform than there are for the Apple > IIgs platform. Whoopee shit! So you can get more games for the Amiga. Does that make it the better machine? I don't think so. Games are the last thing I'd consider when buying a computer. Your logic is on the level of a ten-year-old joystick junkie, apparently. Thanks to you, I know where the games are now. When I want to do serious computing, I'll stick to the Apple II. Scott Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your best! alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how quaint! free0066@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu \_^_/ --M. Scott, STIV
ramid@pro-generic.cts.com (Rudy Amid) (02/07/90)
In-Reply-To: message from paul@pro-europa.cts.com
You can't compare a computer with a ... watchamcallit.. Nintendo?!
It's like comparing Apples and Vic 20's... \:-)
)))-+---------------------------+-->
! a228amid@cdf.toronto.edu !
! amid@contact.uucp !
! ramid@pro-generic.cts.com !
+---------------------------+ "Hey, this is neat!"
/\\miga: Personal Computing at its BEST!paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) (02/08/90)
In-Reply-To: message from cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Whoopee shit! So you can get more games for the Amiga. Does that make it the > better machine? I don't think so. You can get more games for the Amiga. You can also get more games for the PC. You can also get more applications for both machines than you can for the Apple II. That doesn't make the PC and the Amiga better machines but it does appear that the Apple II is being passed up by the software houses for some reason or another. That is an indicator right there that something is amiss. Once upon a time games were written on Apple II's and then ported to other platforms. Now we're lucky if someone wants to port to our platform. > Your logic is on the level of a ten-year-old joystick junkie, apparently. Quite possible but I really don't think there's a comparison. Ten year olds do not have the disposable income I have that has enabled me to buy hard drives, monitors, //e's, IIgs's, etc etc. I support my Apple II's with my checkbook and have spent over five thousand dollars in the last year in support of my computer hobby. A lot of that money was spent in software stores looking for the latest "ware" for my IIgs. More and more I look with longing at the "dark side", the shelves chock full of PC software. > .. I know where the games are now. Yeah. Written for other machines. Kind of sad isn't it? > When I want to do serious computing, I'll stick to the Apple II. So do I. At least I stick to my IIgs. I let my //e run my since it's faster and not as much fun anymore. However, and I'll insert this just for fun, I'm also thinking "serious computing" now requires me to find a multi-user system and install it in my computer room ;) Paul Hutmacher | crash!pro-europa!paul | They were calling to each P.O. Box 66046 | paul@pro-europa.cts.com |other in the meter band, their Houston, TX 77266 | 713/526-0714 3/12/24/9600 |radio voices faint but clear..
farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (02/10/90)
In article <10287.infoapple.net@pro-generic> ramid@pro-generic.cts.com (Rudy Amid) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from paul@pro-europa.cts.com > > You can't compare a computer with a ... watchamcallit.. Nintendo?! > It's like comparing Apples and Vic 20's... \:-) Not really. The Nintendo uses, so I'm told, a 65816, as does a IIGS. The Nintendo also has dedicated video hardware for animation and such. Given the right cartridge, and using the interface port on the underside, you could probably come up with a pretty decent system. I don't know if you'd get anything better than 320x200 out of it, though. -- +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | Internet : farrier@apple.com | | Apple II Systems Software Engineering | UUCP : apple!farrier | | Apple Computer, Inc. | Fax : (408) 974-1704 | | 20525 Mariani Ave. | AppleLink : FARRIER | | Cupertino, CA 95014 | or farrier@applelink.apple.com | +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | I don't speak for Apple Computer, our products do. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) (02/10/90)
In article <38503@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: > Not really. The Nintendo uses, so I'm told, a 65816, as does > a IIGS. The Nintendo also has dedicated video hardware for That's not what I've heard. I've heard that Nintendo uses some 8-bit processor (don't know what, tho'). Sega uses a 16-bit processor, however. Scott Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your best! alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how quaint! Bitnet: free0066@uiucvmd.bitnet \_^_/ --M. Scott, STIV
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (02/10/90)
In article <1990Feb10.000040.5716@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) writes: >In article <38503@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: >> Not really. The Nintendo uses, so I'm told, a 65816, as does >> a IIGS. The Nintendo also has dedicated video hardware for > >That's not what I've heard. I've heard that Nintendo uses some 8-bit processor >(don't know what, tho'). Sega uses a 16-bit processor, however. Nintendo uses a 6502 I'm pretty sure. Maybe 6508.. but same family.. -- If you want info about a 20 meg "floptical" drive mail me. YOU CAN ALSO GET ONE FOR --$440-- (NEW **LOWER** PRICE!) BY MAILING ME. [WE HAVE TO GET ENOUGH PEOPLE THOUGH..Slightly higher for less people but not much] unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu APPLE II FOREVER APL24VR GS tips? Mail me. unknown%darkside.com@ames.arpa Please use the former address for regular use.
SAB121@psuvm.psu.edu (02/10/90)
In article <1990Feb10.000040.5716@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) says: > >In article <38503@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: >> Not really. The Nintendo uses, so I'm told, a 65816, as does >> a IIGS. The Nintendo also has dedicated video hardware for > >That's not what I've heard. I've heard that Nintendo uses some 8-bit >processor >(don't know what, tho'). Sega uses a 16-bit processor, however. > Actually from what I've heard it uses the ever lovable 6502 (or is it the 65C02?) I was talking with a friend designing a card for the IIs that would let you plug a Nintendo cartridge into it and use it just like the game. Don't know how far he got though... >Scott >Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- >Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your >best! > alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ > saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how >quaint! > Bitnet: free0066@uiucvmd.bitnet \_^_/ --M. Scott, >STIV <SAB121@PSUVM.BITNET> <sab121@psuvm.psu.edu> <<<<Don't you just love my fancy .sig?????>>>>>
sb@pro-generic.cts.com (Stephen Brown) (02/11/90)
In-Reply-To: message from cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu In article <1361@crash.cts.com> paul@pro-europa.cts.com (Paul Hutmacher) writes: > The Amiga is a superior machine because there are more game titles > produced and ported to the Amiga platform than there are for the Apple > IIgs platform. Scott Alfter (cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu) responds: >Whoopee shit! So you can get more games for the Amiga. Does that make it the >better machine? I don't think so. Games are the last thing I'd consider when >buying a computer. Your logic is on the level of a ten-year-old joystick >junkie, apparently. Thanks to you, I know where the games are now. When I >want to do serious computing, I'll stick to the Apple II. My points: (a) I don't think the point was that the availability of games makes one machine better than another. However, you skirt the point that more games are available for the Amiga. (b) Games may be the last thing YOU consider, however, not everyone is the same, and there is nothing WRONG about choosing a computer just for games. {Personally, I like a wide variety of programs for my machine, including a wide variety of games. (c) I don't think that veiled insults or unpleasantness (or swearing) is appropriate here. It doesn't further anyone's cause. (d) You still completely miss the point. If you go to MOST Software distributers, you see asiles of MSDOS software, and then (after much searching) find the Classic Apple II/Apple IIGS software tucked away in the off-brand section. The selection of games is not great, but more importantly to me (and I suspect, to you too) is that there isn't a great selection of GOOD 'productivity' software. This is because Apple Computer, Inc. has deterred people from using Apple II's in business. This is a big mistake. I maintain that if Apple was truly an ambitious company, they would attempt to exploit every niche to the fullest. It is clear that from their lacadaisical attitude (in particular, towards the Apple II) that where they might have been agressive at one point, they have become complacent and wimpy now. Their market share is decreasing, and now the bed that they made they must sleep in. BTW: I am currently using an Apple IIe. I have a II+ and a IIgs. My brother has a IIc+. Please don't accuse me of not knowing about, or about what's available for, the Apple II line. Stephen Brown To All Flamethrowers: Gimme a sec to put on my asbestos suit. UUCP: crash!pro-generic!sb ARPA: crash!pro-generic!sb@nosc.mil INET: sb@pro-generic.cts.com
sysop@pro-generic.cts.com (Matthew Montano) (02/12/90)
In-Reply-To: message from farrier@Apple.COM If the Nintendo used a 65816, wouldn't it be easier to convince Mensch to do his work faster.. The Nintendo Control Deck uses a 65(C)02. The actual unit was designed in 1983 or 1984, long before the 65816 became availible. I have no idea of the resolution of the Nintendo system, it's not that great though. Other specs you might be interested in (I sell these things for a living...) NEC TurboGraphx 16 uses a 7mhz 65C02 and has a resolution of 320*200*16. Sega Master System uses a Z80 with a slightly higher resolution than the nintendo. Sega Genesis uses a 8mhz 68000 and a 320*200*16 screen resolution. The Genesis also has a Z80 inside, to allow it to play the old cartridges. UUCP: crash!pro-generic!sysop ARPA: crash!pro-generic!sysop@nosc.mil INET: sysop@pro-generic.cts.com
paul@pro-europa.cts.com (System Administrator) (02/12/90)
In-Reply-To: message from ramid@pro-generic.cts.com > You can't compare a computer with a ... watchamcallit.. Nintendo?! > It's like comparing Apples and Vic 20's... \:-) I agree. Nintendos and such do not have the depth of play and excellent graphics that my IIgs has. Of course, the lack of really decent games for the IIgs is what started my rant in the first place. I'd like to see stuff like Harpoon for the IIgs. Paul Hutmacher | crash!pro-europa!paul | They were calling to each P.O. Box 66046 | paul@pro-europa.cts.com |other in the meter band, their Houston, TX 77266 | 713/526-0714 3/12/24/9600 |radio voices faint but clear..
gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com (Gary Snow) (02/12/90)
In-Reply-To: message from sb@pro-generic.cts.com
To: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu, paul@pro-europa.cts.com, sb@pro-generic.cts.com
I am a lover of the Apple II and the Mac, and I hate to say this, but as far
as hardware goes there is just NO way that you can compare an Amiga to an
Apple //gs, the Amiga will win hands down, if just for the fact that it has a
superior CPU (a 6800 series VS a 6500 series (ie. a 68000 VS a 68C816)).
Althought when it comes to sound, there is nothing that can currently touch an
Apple //gs.
Now if we are talking about software, that is a good basis for a DISCUSSION,
both the Apple //gs and the Amiga have a good selection, and I am only talking
productivity software here, not games.
Gary
_______________________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________cdm@pro-freedom.cts.com (Carl Macdonald) (02/13/90)
In-Reply-To: message from sb@pro-generic.cts.com
Just to throw my 2cents worth in, I have to agree with Stephen about Apple not
being very ambitious. Certainly the Mac is a nice machine, however, for many
small businesses it is just to much of a cash outlay to be justified. I know
of several small businesses locally that are using Apple IIs, despite the lack
of good business software.
Carl MacDonald
DISCLAIMER: All opinions expressed here are my own, not those of my employer
or anyone else, living or otherwise.
UUCP: crash!pnet01!pro-freedom!cdm
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InterNet: cdm@pro-freedom.cts.comcyliao@eng.umd.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (02/14/90)
In article <10584.infoapple.net@pro-generic> sysop@pro-generic.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from farrier@Apple.COM >I have no idea of the resolution of the Nintendo system, it's not that great >though. > If I remember well, it was 256 x 256 with 16 colors. >NEC TurboGraphx 16 uses a 7mhz 65C02 and has a resolution of 320*200*16. > THIS IS INSTERESTING. >Sega Master System uses a Z80 with a slightly higher resolution than the >nintendo. > No, Sega has exactly the same resolution to Nitendo, but it got 256 colors. >UUCP: crash!pro-generic!sysop >ARPA: crash!pro-generic!sysop@nosc.mil >INET: sysop@pro-generic.cts.com -- |I want Rocket Chip 10 MHz, Z-Ram Ultra II, UniDisk 3.5 | cyliao@wam.umd.edu | |I want my own NeXT, 50MHz 68040, 64Mb RAM, 660Mb SCSI, | Chun Yao Liao | | NeXT laser printer, net connection. | Accepting Donations!| /* If (my_.signature =~ yours) coincidence = true; else ignore_this = true; */