fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) (02/07/90)
Okay boys and girls, it's time to flame Apple again. There's a new publication from Apple called "develop." If you're a member of the APDA, you'll get a Free Copy of this "Apple Technical Journal." What's inside? Yup, you guessed it, a whole bunch of Macintosh stuff. No surprises there. But wait, what's this? An article about "Dynamo", an exciting new development tool for the Apple II! Hooray! Of course, you need a Macintosh to run it. It only works within MPW. This brings us to the topic of this letter. I'm not going to flame "develop." It delivered what it promised. I'd prefer to flame people like the Apple relations person who, after giving statistics about how many people said they were Mac developers, Apple II developers, or both, made a comment to the effect that many Apple II-only developers probably developed for both. I guess working with these primitive machines screws up your eye-hand coordination. The message I keep getting is, the Apple II isn't suited for development. Everybody who wants to develop Apple II or //gs software should do it on a Macintosh(tm). Sure, the closing lines of the article are "There is nothing wrong with developing Apple II software on an Apple II. It just takes longer."* Which is about as positive as Apple gets. [ * those two sentences have been reprinted without permission of the author or Macintosh, Inc. Sue me. ] But when you see this sort of thing all the time, and you see software developers leaving the Apple II for greener pastures, you kinda wonder if maybe, just maybe, the two events aren't totally unrelated. The world at large doesn't care what you do. The world doesn't develop software for System 5.0. If Apple had their way, the world wouldn't even be developing software on a //gs at all. Developers look at the hardware, and how Apple respects it. I've been using the Apple II since I was in 4th grade (I'm almost 21). The first computer my family owned was an Apple ][+ (march 1981). The first and only computer I've ever purchased is my Apple //gs. I've watched Apple slowly stifle it over the past six years. I'm really tired of all this. I worked with an IBM PS/2 model 70 (25 MHz '386) over the summer (at Control Data Corp, ironically across the parking lot from Claris in Santa Clara). It was the latest and the greatest that IBM had to offer. And it ran software that was written before the Macintosh was invented. It got bigger, it got better, it got much faster. But it never forgot where it started from. Introducing a new Apple // at 6.2 MHz would be the end of the line. It wouldn't sell any more //gs units then are already being sold (and that number is dwindling thanks to stupid Apple marketing practices). After putting that much effort into a failed piece of hardware, there's no way Mr. Pepsi would go forward with any more Apple // CPUs. Macintosh, Inc. has two choices. Drop the Apple //, or set the world on fire with a new //gs. Become an innovator like you once were, not the idiots who produced the //c+ (a Laser 128/EX with an Apple sticker on it). That's my wish list. -- fadden@cory.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) ...!ucbvax!cory!fadden "Macintosh: Part of Every College Students Wildest Dreams" - Back of T-shirt being worn by a guy paid by Apple to walk around wearing their T-shirts.
cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) (02/07/90)
In article <21844@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes: >Okay boys and girls, it's time to flame Apple again. > >There's a new publication from Apple called "develop." If you're a member >of the APDA, you'll get a Free Copy of this "Apple Technical Journal." > >What's inside? > >Yup, you guessed it, a whole bunch of Macintosh stuff. No surprises there. I got my free copy last week. Indeed, the magazine's a waste of money if you own an Apple II--just like APDAlog before it. I'm dropping my APDA membership; it's been a waste of my time (and money). I wrote a pretty nasty letter about APDA a few months ago that was published in Nibble; I'll send copies to anyone who wants one. BTW, Apple threw a CD-ROM disk in with develop. I haven't had a chance to see what's on it yet (I have to track down a Mac with a CD-ROM drive--shouldn't be too hard in this Mac-oriented place), but it'll probably be more Mac than anything else, as usual. Scott Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your best! alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how quaint! free0066@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu \_^_/ --M. Scott, STIV
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/07/90)
In article <21844@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes: The following response comes from Eric Soldan of Apple II DTS (and author of Dynamo and the article in _d e v e l o p_). As we all say, these are his opinions and not necessarily those of Apple Computer, his employer... >Okay boys and girls, it's time to flame Apple again. Hey, wait a minute!! Flame me. (Eric Soldan) I wrote Dynamo, as well as the article for _d e v e l o p_ because I thought it important for developers. I was a developer for Apple II computers definitely before your family had one, and most likely before you were using one in 4th grade. I wrote a lot of educational software, and you probably used some of it in your formative years. Given my experience, I know (or I think I know) what is important to developers. Either way, I wrote Dynamo for people like me who are still out there writing great software, under deadlines, with managers peering over their shoulder asking if it is done yet. Let me also point out that there was no marketing strategy, plan, etc. I did all of this stuff because I care. And Apple let me do this on Apple time because Apple cares. I mentioned to authority-types here that the Apple II could use a really well defined, powerful development system, and that I thought I could put one together. The authority-types said to go for it, in the Apple tradition. So I did. This was all there was to it. I chose MPW over APW. Marketing didn't. I believe in a powerful development system. As an engineer here at Apple, I need the most powerful development system I can get so that I can deliver the goods to developers faster. In this respect, my job here is no different than what I did as a developer. The demands on timeliness are no different-- only the customer has changed. I also tried to do an APW version, but do to the limitations of the APW assembler (and some bugs in there as well), I was not able to complete the conversion. Note that I did try, however. I do realize the importance of native development. I know that there are really sharp programmers out there that don't have a Mac. (I was one for a long time.) Let me state that you were not the only one to note the APW deficiency. Currently, there is someone interested in making an APW version. I don't want to commit this individual by mentioning names here, but the statement of intent was made on a public forum. (Yes, this individual and I are having a similar discourse at present.) If you are interested in attempting an APW version (or Merlin, or whatever), then be my guest. The only restriction is that you can't charge for the derivative product if you choose to distribute it. Hopefully at this point I have lowered the height of your "flame". Maybe it is no longer blow-torch size. I will add comments to the rest of your message as appropriate. >There's a new publication from Apple called "develop." If you're a member >of the APDA, you'll get a Free Copy of this "Apple Technical Journal." > >What's inside? > >Yup, you guessed it, a whole bunch of Macintosh stuff. No surprises there. > >But wait, what's this? An article about "Dynamo", an exciting new development >tool for the Apple II! Hooray! > >Of course, you need a Macintosh to run it. It only works within MPW. This >brings us to the topic of this letter. I'm not going to flame "develop." >It delivered what it promised. The editors of _d e v e l o p_ did do a great job. I appreciate their publishing my article. (Thanks, Louella.) >I'd prefer to flame people like the Apple relations person who, after >giving statistics about how many people said they were Mac developers, >Apple II developers, or both, made a comment to the effect that many >Apple II-only developers probably developed for both. I guess working with >these primitive machines screws up your eye-hand coordination. A lot of developers do have both machines, and are capable of developing on either one. Some do mostly Mac development, and some do mostly Apple II development. Either way, many of them own a Mac. I thought the Mac was a cool machine when it first came out. I had to go get one, just like I had to have an Apple II when it came out. I thought that "lasso" was just the coolest thing I ever saw. After doing about a million lassos in MacPaint, I went and added a lasso to my own artwork editor for the Apple II. I got a lot of cool ideas just looking at the Mac. I still do. >The message I keep getting is, the Apple II isn't suited for development. >Everybody who wants to develop Apple II or //gs software should do it on >a Macintosh(tm). The Apple II is suitable for Apple II development. There is a more powerful (and expensive) choice, however. If you can afford the Porsche instead of the Mustang, then, hey, why not? >Sure, the closing lines of the article are "There is nothing wrong with >developing Apple II software on an Apple II. It just takes longer."* Which >is about as positive as Apple gets. >[ * those two sentences have been reprinted without permission of the > author or Macintosh, Inc. Sue me. ] The words in this article are mine. The editors of _d e v e l o p_ were very nice in not changing everything we said, or changing the article to fit some grand corporate scheme. Apple is still a company of individuals, fortunately, and the articles in _d e v e l o p_ reflect this. So, if you don't like the words, then flame me. (AppleLink: SOLDAN) >But when you see this sort of thing all the time, and you see software >developers leaving the Apple II for greener pastures, you kinda wonder if >maybe, just maybe, the two events aren't totally unrelated. I think you miss the entire point of Dynamo. I wrote it so that Apple II development could happen faster! The easier it is, the more development that will occur. This was to HELP the Apple II, damn-it! >The world at large doesn't care what you do. The world doesn't develop >software for System 5.0. If Apple had their way, the world wouldn't even >be developing software on a //gs at all. Developers look at the hardware, >and how Apple respects it. Wait just one minute! I work in Apple II Developer Technical Support! MY JOB IS TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO WRITE FOR THE APPLE II! THE MAJORITY OF QUESTIONS ARE 16-BIT RELATED! OUR WHOLE GROUP EXISTS BECAUSE APPLE THINKS THE APPLE II IS IMPORTANT. STOP TELLING ME MY JOB ISN'T IMPORTANT! >I've been using the Apple II since I was in 4th grade (I'm almost 21). >The first computer my family owned was an Apple ][+ (march 1981). The first >and only computer I've ever purchased is my Apple //gs. I've watched Apple >slowly stifle it over the past six years. I'm really tired of all this. > >I worked with an IBM PS/2 model 70 (25 MHz '386) over the summer (at Control >Data Corp, ironically across the parking lot from Claris in Santa Clara). >It was the latest and the greatest that IBM had to offer. And it ran >software that was written before the Macintosh was invented. >It got bigger, it got better, it got much faster. But it never forgot where >it started from. > >Introducing a new Apple // at 6.2 MHz would be the end of the line. It >wouldn't sell any more //gs units then are already being sold (and that >number is dwindling thanks to stupid Apple marketing practices). After >putting that much effort into a failed piece of hardware, there's no way >Mr. Pepsi would go forward with any more Apple // CPUs. There is a lot of personal opinion in here. Be careful -- somebody might not recognize this for the blatent opinion that it is and might actually believe you. >Macintosh, Inc. has two choices. Drop the Apple //, or set the world on >fire with a new //gs. Become an innovator like you once were, not >the idiots who produced the //c+ (a Laser 128/EX with an Apple sticker on it). And as a final note: Thank you for being concerned enough to flame us. We care what people think, and we do keep track of what is being written. Stay in touch. Eric Soldan (AppleLink: SOLDAN) (Internet: SOLDAN@AppleLink.Apple.com) -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) (02/07/90)
Thanks to Mark Johnson and Eric Soldan for taking the time, and making the'
effort to respond to the flame about Dynamo
While the author of the flame had a couple of valid points (not all
developers have Macs), the fact that Mark and Eric responded is to me
really great. It shows all of us that there are still people at Apple
who care. They not only cared enough to give us Dynamo, but they cared
enough to let us know that they care about how we feel..
Gosh, if only this was Apple policy, and there had been some response
over recent years to some of the other flames, or perhaps just some
word from someone to publicly let the world know that there are still
people there who care about how the Apple II world feels, the public
image of how Apple feels about the Apple II might be much different
today..
Keep up the good work guys!!!
--
bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | bsherman@pro-exchange | MCI MAIL: BSHERMAN
>> Miami's Big Apple - 305-948-8000 - 24 hours - 300/1200 - PCP'able <<
>> Oldest Apple support board in Southeast. Now in it's ninth year. <<jabernathy@pro-houston.cts.com (Joe Abernathy) (02/09/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mjohnson@Apple.COM
Eric Soldan, author of Dynamo, writes
> ... Thank you for caring enough to flame us. We care what people think.
I use both machines, and see most of the significant new software that comes
out -- I review quite a bit of it, in fact. (To those of you who say
development is at a standstill, I say that perhaps the real issue is that
there isn't much being developed that fits your tastes. Most of today's good
new software is oriented toward productivity, not recreation.)
Anyway, about Mac -> IIGS programming tools. It's fine that such tools exist,
but if you guys at Apple are going to insist on the Macintosh as the preferred
development platform -- you do, admit it -- you need to do put some serious
efforts into educating the Macintosh users who plan to do the
cross-developing. Most ports are garbage; and most of the Mac programmers who
decide to dabble in Apple II programming turn out worse garbage yet.
For example: TML Systems is a Mac outfit that is familiar with all the latest
and greatest programming concepts, particularly OOP. But when they recently
attempted to bring resources to their Apple IIGS Pascal, the results were
painful to witness. I made a four-page list of just those bugs that produced a
system crash -- never mind the design and performance flaws.
No, it isn't Apple's fault that people don't debug their software before they
sell it. But Apple does creation the distinct impression that they can drop
back and make a quick run at the Apple II market without having to go through
the research and full-scale development effort that a Macintosh application
would require. Nearly every time you see a IIGS program developed by companies
known primarily in the Mac field, you can bet it's half-done and will stay
that way.
I'm one of the few who thinks Apple's doing a fine job of supporting the II,
but as long as you're going to be a "company of individuals" with the power to
choose that Apple II development tools must run on the Macintosh, do us the
favor of finishing the job. The longer things continue on their present
course, the bigger the problem will become. The result of course will be that
the IIGS will build a reputation for shoddy applications software, and the
result of that would be that AIIDTS would find itself out of a job.
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America Online: JOEA17, First Word
Direct: Pro-Houston, (713) 526-9607, 3-2400 bpsmartya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) (02/09/90)
Distribution: world Organization: Clinical Pharmacokinetics Lab, SUNY at Buffalo Lines: 44 *** *** In article <1604@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>, *** bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) writes: *** > >Thanks to Mark Johnson and Eric Soldan for taking the time, and making the' >effort to respond to the flame about Dynamo > > >Keep up the good work guys!!! > > My sentiments exactly, you guys are great. Most of my gripes and I think the gripes of others has to deal with marketing and management. Those people wouldn't know what usenet was anyway. Since were on the topic of develop then maybe someone can straighten me out I received my copy of it the other day and from my impression if you are only a member of APDA and not a certified developer then you must pay $30 for 4 issues a year. How they can charge $30/year for 4 issues while magazines like NIBBLE, the old PC_tech journal, Dr. Dobbs and such could publish 12 issues a year for less than $30 is beyond me. I had thought that at one time my membership in APDA would provide me with something more than a catalog of overpriced software., I guess I was living a delusion. This probably means that the APDA periodical will now deteriorate to nothing more than a catalog and make me feel like I really wasted my $20. Just another po'd Apple consumer! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marty Adelman, PH.D. Phone: (716) 887-4572 Director Computer Systems Internet: cpl-mfh!martya@acsu.buffalo.edu Clinical Pharmacokinetics Laboratory UUCP: !sunybcs!cpl-mfh!martya State University of New York at Buffalo -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
wombat@claris.com (Scott Lindsey) (02/10/90)
In article <1990Feb7.021539.14344@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) writes: In article <21844@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes: > BTW, Apple threw a CD-ROM disk in with develop. I haven't had a chance to see > what's on it yet (I have to track down a Mac with a CD-ROM drive--shouldn't > be too hard in this Mac-oriented place), but it'll probably be more Mac than > anything else, as usual. Hey, there *is* a ProDOS partition on that CD, you know. How 'bout if you track down a GS with a CD-ROM drive. Is that going to be harder? Scott Lindsey | I dig iguana in their outer space duds Claris Corp. | saying, "Aren't you glad we only eat bugs?" ames!claris!wombat| DISCLAIMER: These are not the opinions of Claris, Apple, wombat@claris.com | StyleWare, the author, or anyone else living or Dead.
cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) (02/10/90)
In article <WOMBAT.90Feb9203249@claris.com> wombat@claris.com (Scott Lindsey) writes: >Hey, there *is* a ProDOS partition on that CD, you know. How 'bout if you >track down a GS with a CD-ROM drive. Is that going to be harder? You bet! It sure would be nice, but you're asking the impossible at this place. I know of only two computer sites on campus of dozens that have Apple IIs at all. One is only accessible to math students. The other is owned by the College of Education, but open to anyone. They have an assortment of computers, including 3 ROM 01 512K IIGSes. Of these, only one has so much as a 3.5" drive--a second has two 5.25" drives and the third has just one 5.25" drive! I wanted to borrow terminal software for the IIe in the lab with a modem (this was before I got a modem), and the ops had no idea what I was talking about! (They only use the machine for Fredmail, which has its own terminal software, I suppose.) I'm trying to organize II users at the University of Illinois so we might improve the II condition here. BTW, to all of you at the U of I, the meeting's on IRC channel 1000 tomorrow, 10 February at 7 PM CST! If any of the rest of you care to join in, feel free to do so, but announce where you're from. I want to get a head count of the II-computin' Illini while I'm on the system tomorrow night. So much for digression. Do you suppose Apple File Exchange could read the ProDOS partition, or will it sense the Mac partition first? If I can get to the II stuff, I could transfer them to Mac 3.5" disks, to my mainframe account, to ProDOS 5.25" disks that I can use. Or am I SOL? Thanx in advance for any advice! Scott Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your best! alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how quaint! Bitnet: free0066@uiucvmd.bitnet \_^_/ --M. Scott, STIV
cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Alfter) (02/10/90)
In article <-533196065@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: >Since were on the topic of develop then maybe someone can straighten me out >I received my copy of it the other day and from my impression if you are >only a member of APDA and not a certified developer then you must pay $30 >for 4 issues a year. How they can charge $30/year for 4 issues while >magazines like NIBBLE, the old PC_tech journal, Dr. Dobbs and such could >publish 12 issues a year for less than $30 is beyond me. Nibble currently goes for $26.95 for a one-year, 12-issue subscription. No Apple II user should be without it. A2-Central is equally indispensible at $28.00 for a one-year, 12-issue subscription. $30.00 for a paltry four issues of develop is as much a ripoff as $20.00 for APDAlog. (More on APDA below.) >I had thought that at one time my membership in APDA would provide me with >something more than a catalog of overpriced software., I guess I was living >a delusion. This probably means that the APDA periodical will now >deteriorate to nothing more than a catalog and make me feel like I really >wasted my $20. Indeed. I've had the same frustrated experience with APDA. I was so pissed that I fired off a letter to Nibble last June about the problems I was having with APDA. They published it in October. I originally mailed the letter to someone who requested it, but I think this relates to the issue at hand, so here's the text I sent to Nibble. ------------------------------------start------------------------------------ Mr. Scott A. Alfter 43 Megan Drive Henderson, NV 89014 4 June 1989 Letters Nibble 52 Domino Drive Concord, MA 01742 Dear Sir: "Raw Data" in the June 1989 issue of Nibble was right on target! I especially appreciated the section, "How Do You Like Them Apples?" It seems that Apple is rapidly digging itself into a hole that it has no hope of getting out of. Never mind that the Beatles are fools to think that Apple Computer's use of "Apple" on the Macintosh, IIGS, and MIDI interface (among other devices) is going to hurt them in any way--it won't! I'm talking about APDA, the Apple Programmers and Developers Association. I renewed my membership days before APDA moved from TechAlliance to Apple, so I was able to con them, if you will, into getting a "two-for-one" deal. Not that that two-for-one has done much good. TechAlliance isn't too bad (no Mac material in Call-A.P.P.L.E.), but it emphasizes the IIGS way too much. However, APDA is much worse. Almost the entire program, newsletter, etc. is Macintosh-related. I don't have a Macintosh. I will never have a Macintosh. If you took all of the Mac-related stuff out of APDAlog, you wouldn't have much left, and what would be left isn't worth the paper it's printed on. What APDA lacks in substance, it doesn't even make up for in service! I waited for two months after renewal for my membership card to arrive in the mail. The receipt TechAlliance sent when I renewed said that Apple would send the card. Since I didn't know where at Apple to send anything, I sent them a letter through TechAlliance. Their reply was that the cards were "currently being sent in batch mailings" and that I would receive mine "very soon." Three more months have gone by--almost half of the term of the membership! I just sent them a nasty letter regarding all of this. In that letter, I included a copy of "Raw Data." Nibble isn't always put into the position of Consumer Reports, but this time it has pointed out APDA as the scam that it is. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in my estimation of APDA. I told them that I will let my membership run out. However, you can rest assured that I don't foresee letting my Nibble subscription run out anytime in the near (or far) future, for as long as I own an Apple II. You guys are the greatest! Yours truly, (signed) Scott Alfter -------------------------------------end------------------------------------- Somehow I think nobody at APDA saw this; I never got a reply to this letter, either directly from them or through the letters pages of Nibble. They're too busy concentrating on the Mac end of things. Assuming that they have Internet access, maybe they'll see it this time. Seeing as my subscription expired last month, they'll see that I followed through on my promise, and I don't think they could persuade me to renew my membership. (OK, they could give me a ROM 04 GS with 8 megs, 100 MB HD, 2 each of 3.5 and 5.25 drives, LaserWriter IINTX... :-) ) Scott Alfter------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cs122aw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu _/_ Apple IIe: the power to be your best! alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu/ v \ saa33413@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ( ( A keyboard--how quaint! Bitnet: free0066@uiucvmd.bitnet \_^_/ --M. Scott, STIV
bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) (02/11/90)
In article <-533196065@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: { stuff deleted } >Since were on the topic of develop then maybe someone can straighten me out >I received my copy of it the other day and from my impression if you are >only a member of APDA and not a certified developer then you must pay $30 >for 4 issues a year. How they can charge $30/year for 4 issues while >magazines like NIBBLE, the old PC_tech journal, Dr. Dobbs and such could >publish 12 issues a year for less than $30 is beyond me. While I am not an Apple Employee, and thus have nothing to defend, let me ask how you can equate Nibble, Dr. Dobbs and others to the costs involved with develop?? Do the other publications come with a CD-ROM included in the price of each issue?? Heck, $30 is a fair price for 4 CD-ROM's without a printed magazine, don't you think?? Have you mastered or pressed a CD-ROM lately? Do you have any idea of the costs involved in that?? >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Marty Adelman, PH.D. Phone: (716) 887-4572 >Director Computer Systems Internet: cpl-mfh!martya@acsu.buffalo.edu >Clinical Pharmacokinetics Laboratory UUCP: !sunybcs!cpl-mfh!martya >State University of New York at Buffalo >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | bsherman@pro-exchange | MCI MAIL: BSHERMAN >> Miami's Big Apple - 305-948-8000 - 24 hours - 300/1200 - PCP'able << >> Oldest Apple support board in Southeast. Now in it's ninth year. <<
dcw@lcs.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) (02/11/90)
In article <1629@umigw.MIAMI.EDU> bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) writes: >In article <-533196065@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: >{ stuff deleted } > >>{ even more deleted } > >While I am not an Apple Employee, and thus have nothing to defend, let me >ask how you can equate Nibble, Dr. Dobbs and others to the costs involved >with develop?? Do the other publications come with a CD-ROM included >in the price of each issue?? Heck, $30 is a fair price for 4 CD-ROM's >without a printed magazine, don't you think?? Have you mastered or pressed >a CD-ROM lately? Do you have any idea of the costs involved in that?? Yes. Actually, the group where I work at here at mit has. It costs roughly $3 or $4 per disk, depending on how many you press. This is an Apple-sponsored deal, so I figure that Apple can charge itself even less. CD's are cheap. (Music CDs just shouldn't sell for $12-$16. Rip off city.) The real cost is in volume. Apple just doesn't sell or expect to sell a whole lot of copies. Take a look at other magazines which are high-quality, yet don't sell a whole lot. For example, Cinefex magazine is a quarterly and it costs roughly $30/year. No CD, either. > bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | bsherman@pro-exchange | MCI MAIL: BSHERMAN >>> Miami's Big Apple - 305-948-8000 - 24 hours - 300/1200 - PCP'able << >>> Oldest Apple support board in Southeast. Now in it's ninth year. << -- Dave Whitney dcw@sun-bear.lcs.mit.edu ...!mit-eddie!sun-bear!dcw dcw@athena.mit.edu My employer pays me well. This, however, does not mean he agrees with me. I wrote Z-Link & BinSCII. Send me bug reports. I use a //GS. Send me Tech Info.
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (02/11/90)
In article <WOMBAT.90Feb9203249@claris.com> wombat@claris.com (Scott Lindsey) writes: >Hey, there *is* a ProDOS partition on that CD, you know. How 'bout if you >track down a GS with a CD-ROM drive. Is that going to be harder? > >Scott Lindsey | I dig iguana in their outer space duds Actually, I don't believe there is, but I'll double check later. (Both volumes of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD, on the other hand, do have ProDOS partitions in addition to HFS partitions.) -- --David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II Developer Technical Support | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) (02/12/90)
Distribution: world Organization: Clinical Pharmacokinetics Lab, SUNY at Buffalo Lines: 34 *** *** In article <1629@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>, *** bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) writes: *** > >While I am not an Apple Employee, and thus have nothing to defend, let me >ask how you can equate Nibble, Dr. Dobbs and others to the costs involved >with develop?? Do the other publications come with a CD-ROM included >in the price of each issue?? Heck, $30 is a fair price for 4 CD-ROM's >without a printed magazine, don't you think?? Have you mastered or pressed >a CD-ROM lately? Do you have any idea of the costs involved in that?? > My impression was that the CD-Rom is extra if you want it with your subscription the $30 only got you the magazine. I'll check but I think that is the case. Anyway, why would I want a CD-Rom disk, is that the only way Apple can get people to buy the CD-Rom drives. I rather have the source code on diskettes so that the other 99% of the Us can use the source code. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marty Adelman, PH.D. Phone: (716) 887-4572 Director Computer Systems Internet: cpl-mfh!martya@acsu.buffalo.edu Clinical Pharmacokinetics Laboratory UUCP: !sunybcs!cpl-mfh!martya State University of New York at Buffalo -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/13/90)
In article <-533196065@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: > >Since were on the topic of develop then maybe someone can straighten me out >I received my copy of it the other day and from my impression if you are >only a member of APDA and not a certified developer then you must pay $30 >for 4 issues a year. How they can charge $30/year for 4 issues while >magazines like NIBBLE, the old PC_tech journal, Dr. Dobbs and such could >publish 12 issues a year for less than $30 is beyond me. > Check out the advertising content and percentage of _d e v e l o p_ and other publications. About 0% for _d e v e l o p_ and 60% for other publications. You also receive a CD-ROM with every issue which contains a COMPLETE linked and cross-referenced archive of EVERY back issue. For some people the price should have been closer to $50, but the Developer Press group kept it as reasonable as they could. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) (02/13/90)
Distribution: world Organization: Clinical Pharmacokinetics Lab, SUNY at Buffalo Lines: 63 *** *** In article <38552@apple.Apple.COM>, *** mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: *** >In article <-533196065@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: >> >>Since were on the topic of develop then maybe someone can straighten me out >>I received my copy of it the other day and from my impression if you are >>only a member of APDA and not a certified developer then you must pay $30 >>for 4 issues a year. How they can charge $30/year for 4 issues while >>magazines like NIBBLE, the old PC_tech journal, Dr. Dobbs and such could >>publish 12 issues a year for less than $30 is beyond me. >> > >Check out the advertising content and percentage of _d e v e l o p_ and >other publications. About 0% for _d e v e l o p_ and 60% for other >publications. You also receive a CD-ROM with every issue which contains >a COMPLETE linked and cross-referenced archive of EVERY back issue. For >some people the price should have been closer to $50, but the Developer >Press group kept it as reasonable as they could. > >-- >Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson >Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com >Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson > I didn't realize the CD Rom was coming with each issue, but I reiterate my previous reply to another poster, I have no desire to purchase a CD-Rom drive for $900 or so. To me a diskette with the current issues source code would have more than sufficed. Why have the diskettes been given to APDA so they can cost additional monies. It would have made more sense to place the CD-Rom with Apda and it would not have to be updated so frequently. Seems to me Apple figures if it made $900 on the CD rRom it can afford not to make much profit on the CD's in develop, but if you haven't paid for the CD-rom then you can fork over additional money to get the code on diskette. If Apple really wanted to support people then they would make develop available with diskette, cd-rom, or just as a magazine and you could pay for what you wanted. Now I have to pay for a CD-Rom disk that I can't use and have no desire to or else I can fork over some more money to APDA for the floppies. The other magazines I mentioned have these types of options. P.S. I'm not flaming APPLE I'm just trying to understand the logic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marty Adelman, PH.D. Phone: (716) 887-4572 Director Computer Systems Internet: cpl-mfh!martya@acsu.buffalo.edu Clinical Pharmacokinetics Laboratory UUCP: !sunybcs!cpl-mfh!martya State University of New York at Buffalo -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/15/90)
In article <-533173123@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: > >If Apple really wanted to support people then they would make develop >available with diskette, cd-rom, or just as a magazine and you could pay >for what you wanted. Now I have to pay for a CD-Rom disk that I can't use >and have no desire to or else I can fork over some more money to APDA for the >floppies. The other magazines I mentioned have these types of options. > You are not paying for the CD-ROM in essence in the subscription. The cost of the CD-ROM is so minimal (less expensive than diskettes) that the subscription price really wouldn't change...its just an extra that you get with the subscription. We don't want people to have to order this stuff through APDA since you've already basically paid for it in a subscription. If you don't have a CD-ROM drive, then hopefully you have access to an electronic network like AppleLink or the Internet. We WILL be making these articles and code available in electronic format through these avenues; however, it will not be in the same form as on the CD-ROM (indexed, etc.). Just have a little patience and you will see these showing up on Apple.com and AppleLink real soon now. Hope this helps answer your question about the logic behind it all. Again I will stress that Apple is really pushing CD-ROM and there will be things coming out in the future that may only be available in CD-ROM format and not diskettes. If you are an Apple developer, it is to your benefit to invest in CD-ROM technology. If you are an Apple Partner or Associate, you also have the opportunity to purchase Apple's drive at a highly discounted price. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
lbotez@pro-sol.cts.com (Lynda Botez) (02/15/90)
In-Reply-To: message from martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP In regard to the CD Rom that is being shipped with Develop... I'm curious to find out *WHY* Apple decided to go with a CD Rom disk. I understand that the disk holds gobs of data (which I would imagine goes mostly unused every issue); however, I wonder *HOW MANY* of the Mac and Apple II Developers actually own a CD Rom Drive. I know for a fact that Apple II-only Developers wouldn't have such an animal (at $1100, it's a luxury; since there is no known Apple II software available for it.. oh, I forgot, you can play regular CDs on it with a minor modification). Apple may be trying to encourage Developers to utilize this technology, but at the moment it looks like they are just flapping their wings in the breeze. On the other hand, maybe those Mac Developers have CD Roms to spare and the CD comes in handy for them. Their stuff costs so much that what's another $1000 drive? :-) I would suggest they make the CD disk optional (at least for the Apple II folks) and cut down their expenses. Plus, most Apple II Developers toss the Mac stuff (and the CD Disk, I would imagine). I've got a great idea! Everyone who can't use the CD Rom Disk should mail it back to Apple. A small, silent protest. :-) Lynda I'm now living at Morgan Davis' Pro-Sol; as Pnet has locked most of its non-IBM users out. I haven't received any mail for the last week, so please contact me here: lbotez@pro-sol.cts.com
MMPR004@ECNCDC.BITNET (scott hutinger) (02/16/90)
CD ROMS, I own 2 of them, both apple. One for home, and one at work! I think they are about the best thing that happened to the world. Feed me more cd-rom platters and I will be :-) I think D E V E L O P is just fine and dandy. Love them CD's! Hate them 3.5's! scott hutinger mmpr004@ecncdc.bitnet
fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) (02/16/90)
In article <38644@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >You are not paying for the CD-ROM in essence in the subscription. The cost >of the CD-ROM is so minimal (less expensive than diskettes) that the >subscription price really wouldn't change...its just an extra that you get >with the subscription. I *really* have to question this. I've purchased bulk Sony diskettes for $0.50 each, and I know that you can get them for even less. Unless there are some hidden costs involved with copying 3.5" disks, I just can't see how a CD can cost less than a 3.5" disk. >We don't want people to have to order this stuff through APDA since you've >already basically paid for it in a subscription. What percentage of developers own a CD-ROM? Ya wanna do something inexpensive? Send out a CD and a 5.25" disk. The old floppies are inexpensive and almost all Apple // owners have them. And they cost almost nothing to mail. The amount of Apple // stuff in the magazine would fit on one, too :-| . [ snip ] >Hope this helps answer your question about the logic behind it all. Again >I will stress that Apple is really pushing CD-ROM and there will be things >coming out in the future that may only be available in CD-ROM format and >not diskettes. How incredibly stupid. I'm sorry, but that's the way it looks from the eyes of a college student who can't afford a CD player for music, much less for a machine. A lot of people have berated Apple for ignoring it's low-end market through a lack of advertising. But there's more to it than that. They're turning away the developers who write programs for these machines by charging them large sums of money to be Offical Developer Dudes and expecting them to own expensive hardware. Many developers are *not* large businesses. If you want to help people develop on your machine, you use the cheapest possible media which is available to the widest possible audience. Apple is turning development into cable TV... you want the shows, you pay the price. But then, you don't see too many ads on cable TV, do you... If all Apple can see in its future is high-end workstations, so be it. But I look at all of the nifty little things that give the //gs and the Macintosh personality rather than functionality, and most of them are written by people who just do it for fun. It looks like you're trying to buy respectability in the business world (gee, it costs a whole lot for their machines, so they must be really good), but you're killing the hackers in the process. > If you are an Apple developer, it is to your benefit to >invest in CD-ROM technology. If you are an Apple Partner or Associate, >you also have the opportunity to purchase Apple's drive at a highly >discounted price. Anyone who can afford to be a Partner or Associate doesn't *need* a discounted price... :-( >Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Apple giveth, and Apple taketh away. Last year, for the first time, it looked like Apple wanted to start helping. Now being an Apple Developer is more status symbol than anything else. I guess if you want to go after IBM's markets, you have to play like IBM. Congratulations, Apple. You're just like IBM. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong. But SHOW me, don't tell me. DISCLAIMER: Any flame-like material isn't directed at Apple II DTS; I know they're trying to help. It's directed at Macintosh, Inc. as a (failing) business. -- fadden@cory.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) ...!ucbvax!cory!fadden
martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) (02/16/90)
*** *** In article <22132@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, *** fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes: *** > >In article <38644@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >>You are not paying for the CD-ROM in essence in the subscription. The cost >>of the CD-ROM is so minimal (less expensive than diskettes) that the >>subscription price really wouldn't change...its just an extra that you get >>with the subscription. > ....misc more stuff > >Many developers are *not* large businesses. If you want to help people >develop on your machine, you use the cheapest possible media which is >available to the widest possible audience. Apple is turning development >into cable TV... you want the shows, you pay the price. > .... misc more stuff Thanks Andy, you saved me from typing in my own long reply. I'm not a student but I have owned an Apple computer in one form or another since 1978. The Mac is a hobby to me, at work I subsist on IBM's (oh horror !!) mainly because of cost considerations (clones you know.) I have been a member of the local Apple users group since about 78 also and on the board of directors since 1981. I give out a lot of free advice and have been responsible for the sale of hundreds of Apple systems without charging a consulting fee. I enjoy hacking on my macintosh for myself and the folks I deal with in the group, but slowly and surely Apple has been raising the price of my hobby. I could not afford to become an Apple Partner, kind of a high price for my hobby, I also do not desire to purchase a CD Rom, as far as I'm concerned it serves no useful purpose if I'm only gonna look at 1 or 2 cd's. Slowly but surely Apple is telling me that they are not interested in my support. I still haven t upgraded my //e to a iigs because I felt that Apple was only toying with the // series and not commiting real resources to that product line. While I do appreciate what Apple has done and I really appreciate you guys in DTS, I feel that Apple feels that the support you provide should at least pay for itself, not realizing that the good will and support generate increased system sales. Anyway I digress, thanks for your answers Mark and your concern, but in the real world people have other expenses and can't afford to shell out the $1000 or so a year that Apple requires if you wish to keep up with them. I would really like to hear answers from some marketing managers as to their strategies for the 90's, it could save us all a lot of money. But once again I'm a dreamer 8-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marty Adelman, PH.D. Phone: (716) 887-4572 Director Computer Systems Internet: cpl-mfh!martya@acsu.buffalo.edu Clinical Pharmacokinetics Laboratory UUCP: !sunybcs!cpl-mfh!martya State University of New York at Buffalo -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMPR004@ECNCDC.BITNET (srh) (02/16/90)
Dynamo for APW? How come everyone that was saying such nasties has not noticed yet? I think probably someone from Apple will tell all. Also v2.0 for MPW. srh mmpr004@ecncdc.bitnet
cyliao@eng.umd.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (02/17/90)
In article <22132@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes: >What percentage of developers own a CD-ROM? Ya wanna do something inexpensive? >Send out a CD and a 5.25" disk. The old floppies are inexpensive and almost >all Apple // owners have them. And they cost almost nothing to mail. The >amount of Apple // stuff in the magazine would fit on one, too :-| . Well, I doubt that MOST developers own a CD-ROM. According to my room- mate who is also an Apple's developer, that developers get all kind of Apple hardware or software in less than half of the street price... and they don't really do anything for the company... (as far as my roommate said, that he's almost doing nothing for them except getting good deal on hardware) > >How incredibly stupid. I'm sorry, but that's the way it looks from the eyes >of a college student who can't afford a CD player for music, much less for >a machine. > Guess Apple forgot the difficulty NeXT had to distribuite their soft ware... > >> If you are an Apple developer, it is to your benefit to >>invest in CD-ROM technology. If you are an Apple Partner or Associate, >>you also have the opportunity to purchase Apple's drive at a highly >>discounted price. > >Anyone who can afford to be a Partner or Associate doesn't *need* a discounted >price... :-( > >>Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson well, even with half of the price, how many developers there can afford ALL complete system? > >I guess if you want to go after IBM's markets, you have to play like IBM. >Congratulations, Apple. >You're just like IBM. >I'd be delighted to be proven wrong. But SHOW me, don't tell me. I also got the feeling that Apple become IBM style company (who make bulky products and force customers to pay high price because of the IBM three letters on the front panel of the machine) while IBM is learning to become the old time Apple Comp. Inc. >DISCLAIMER: Any flame-like material isn't directed at Apple II DTS; I know >they're trying to help. It's directed at Macintosh, Inc. as a (failing) >business. >-- >fadden@cory.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) >...!ucbvax!cory!fadden here goes mine -- |I want Rocket Chip 10 MHz, Z-Ram Ultra II, UniDisk 3.5 | cyliao@wam.umd.edu | |I want my own NeXT, 50MHz 68040, 64Mb RAM, 660Mb SCSI, | Chun Yao Liao | | NeXT laser printer, net connection. | Accepting Donations!| /* If (my_.signature =~ yours) coincidence = true; else ignore_this = true; */
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (02/18/90)
In article <16832.apple.net@pro-sol> lbotez@pro-sol.cts.com (Lynda Botez) writes: >[...] I know for a fact that Apple II-only >Developers wouldn't have such an animal (at $1100, it's a luxury; since there >is no known Apple II software available for it.. oh, I forgot, you can play >regular CDs on it with a minor modification). I just want to point out a couple of things. Apple II Partners get the same equipment discounts Macintosh developers do--they can get one for considerably less than $1100. If you consider plugging in some sort of speakers a minor modification, then one is required. :-) Finally, the GS can read High Sierra and ISO 9660 CDs even if they weren't specifically made with the Apple II in mind. -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II Developer Technical Support | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (02/18/90)
In article <-533185445@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes: >While I do appreciate what Apple has done and I really appreciate you guys >in DTS, I feel that Apple feels that the support you provide should at least >pay for itself, That isn't the idea--the Partner and Associate fees cover only part of the programs' costs. > not realizing that the good will and support generate >increased system sales. Anyway I digress, thanks for your answers Mark and >your concern, but in the real world people have other expenses and can't afford >to shell out the $1000 or so a year that Apple requires if you wish to keep up >with them. The Partner fee is $600/year, and one of the benefits is equipment discounts. If you need to purchase a fair amount of hardware for development purposes, it's a good deal. If the Partner or Associate program is not right for you, you can get the Technical Notes from APDA and subscribe to d e v e l o p (total is about $100/yr). -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II Developer Technical Support | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) (02/18/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mjohnson@Apple.COM Re: > From: mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) > Subject: Re: develop, Dynamo, and life in general > Hope this helps answer your question about the logic behind it all. Again > I will stress that Apple is really pushing CD-ROM and there will be things > coming out in the future that may only be available in CD-ROM format and > not diskettes. If you are an Apple developer, it is to your benefit to > invest in CD-ROM technology. If you are an Apple Partner or Associate, > you also have the opportunity to purchase Apple's drive at a highly > discounted price. > -- > Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson > Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com I whole-heartedly agree with the opinion, Mark. What I don't agree with is that the majority of the spectrum of work for CD-ROM (even if read/write/ erase drives do hit the market at a price that WE the consumer can afford) appears to be done in anticipation of Mac sales. WHAT can WE (the Apple // enthusiasts) expect in the future of the Apple // when it comes to CD-ROM technology? Will ProDOS ever break the 32 meg limitation (with or w/o a major re-write)? Will GS/OS formats be interchangeable using ProDOS to High Sierra FSTs? Can Apple folks answer these questions and give US the foresight to know how to structure the expenditure of OUR future dollars? :) Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, uunet!cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun.COM, apple} /\ ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-pac!tsouth /\ /^^\ ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-sol!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL /^^\ Tigard INET: tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com / \ Oregon BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1 / \ \
bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) (02/19/90)
In article <38723@apple.Apple.COM>, dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) writes: > If the Partner or Associate program is not right for you, you can get the > Technical Notes from APDA and subscribe to d e v e l o p (total is about > $100/yr). > -- > David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple also sends a copy of the technical notes to your local users group representative. ******************************************************************** * * * bob church bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu * * * * If economics isn't an "exact" science why do computers crash * * so much more often than the stock market? * * bc * ********************************************************************
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/19/90)
In article <1557@crash.cts.com> tsouth@pro-pac.cts.com (System Administrator) writes: > >I whole-heartedly agree with the opinion, Mark. What I don't agree with is >that the majority of the spectrum of work for CD-ROM (even if read/write/ >erase drives do hit the market at a price that WE the consumer can afford) >appears to be done in anticipation of Mac sales. WHAT can WE (the Apple // >enthusiasts) expect in the future of the Apple // when it comes to CD-ROM >technology? Will ProDOS ever break the 32 meg limitation (with or w/o a >major re-write)? Will GS/OS formats be interchangeable using ProDOS to >High Sierra FSTs? Can Apple folks answer these questions and give US the >foresight to know how to structure the expenditure of OUR future dollars? :) > I can only answer from what we (in DTS and the Apple Developer Group) are doing in CD-ROM. You can expect continued improvements on CD titles like Phil & Dave's (which contains as much Apple II software and documentation as we could gather). This is one part of Apple that has not lost sight of the roots of this company, and as long as there are developers developing for the Apple II there will be some kind of support from this group. As far as ProDOS is concerned, that limit is why GS/OS was written. But regardless of that, you can already read the ProDOS partition of the CD we put out and under GS/OS you can read High Sierra discs too. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_