[comp.lang.fortran] a secular response to the religious conflict

arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (12/09/90)

One of the frustrations of practicing scientists who are genuinely
interested in learning about C (or any other potentially useful
computational technique, for that matter) is that it's difficult to
get information that is both objective and understandable.  When I've
tried to learn about these things, the responses are generally of
two broad types:

1. "You actually program in Fortran ???  Wow, you must be either
    older than John von Neumann, or you're really stupid !!!  
    EVERYBODY knows that C (or whatever) is the only thing to use !!!
    And if you have to ask why, you must be **REALLY** stupid !!!"

2. "C has several powerful features.  One is the ability to create a
    flat addressed pointer to a multiply pipelined data structure
    having recursive kludge-foobar interdependence with the gallium
    arsenide WYSIWYG SCSI fsck grep awk #include XSendEvent glorp
    sndwk p9eufiwju8429-v n80& @!4%tf8*=  809(*&89kl ji....."


You get the point --- even those of us Fortran dinosaurs who keep an open
mind, often find it nearly impossible to learn about new computational
techniques which might be useful.  Can anyone recommend a concise, readable
explanation of the benefits of C for the practicing scientist (NOT the
professional programmer)?  If C has the potential to make my life easier,
I'd like to know.
________________________________________________________________________
Raymond W. Arritt                     | 
Assistant Professor                   |
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy        |  "everyone knew that as time went
Univ. of Kansas                       |   by they'd get a little bit older
Lawrence, KS  66045                   |   and a little bit slower..."
arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu             |               
arritt@ukanvax.bitnet                 |
                               

dmocsny@minerva.che.uc.edu (Daniel Mocsny) (12/10/90)

In article <27304.27610742@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>One of the frustrations of practicing scientists who are genuinely
>interested in learning about C (or any other potentially useful
>computational technique, for that matter) is that it's difficult to
>get information that is both objective and understandable.

I have been trying to find and study all books which attempt to 
present C language programming, or C program examples, to scientists 
and engineers who are likely to have a background in FORTRAN. So far,
I have located only the following titles. Would the readers of these
newsgroups kindly recommend others, if any exist? I've already scanned
a few on-line card catalogs, but my list can't be exhaustive.

Press, et al. _Numerical Recipes in C: the Art of Scientific Computing_,
Cambridge University Press 1988.

Kempf, J., _Numerical Software Tools in C_, Prentice-Hall 1987.

Baker, L., _C Tools for Scientists and Engineers_, McGraw-Hill 1989.

Baker, L., _More C Tools for Scientists and Engineers_, McGraw-Hill 1990.

Books specific to particular engineering or scientific disciplines would
also be useful.


--
Dan Mocsny				Snail:
Internet: dmocsny@minerva.che.uc.edu	Dept. of Chemical Engng. M.L. 171
	  dmocsny@uceng.uc.edu		University of Cincinnati
513/751-6824 (home) 513/556-2007 (lab)	Cincinnati, Ohio 45221-0171

jav8106@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Doctor FORTRAN) (12/10/90)

In article <27304.27610742@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes...

% If C has the potential to make my life easier, I'd like to know.

I am afraid that C has the potential of making your life much more difficult.
Forget about it. You already have a superior tool for the type of work you do.
You'll have enough to keep yourself busy with when it comes time to start using
FORTRAN 90.

As far as the people who try to convince you that C is superior, well, chances
are that you've read it here over and over: C has some advantages over FORTRAN
for some problems, but these problems are limited to computer science-type
applications. From what you have said, your programming tasks (like the tasks
of many of us here at comp.lang.fortran) could only be made more complicated
using C. Take it from somebody who programs in both C and FORTRAN: Numerical
problems can be coded faster and more reliably in FORTRAN than in C, and the
code is also more readable and easier to maintain.

If you are looking for the support of a fellow programmer, if you need that
support to keep those egotistical, boorish, know-nothing bit jockeys from
getting your goat, well, you've got it!

C ==========================================================================

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      Subroutine Signature
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gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (12/11/90)

In article <6910@uceng.UC.EDU> dmocsny@minerva.che.uc.edu (Daniel Mocsny) writes:
>I have been trying to find and study all books which attempt to 
>present C language programming, or C program examples, to scientists 
>and engineers who are likely to have a background in FORTRAN.

The absolutely best C tutorial for already experienced programmers
who don't know C (are there any left?) is Kernighan and Ritchie's
"The C Programming Language"; in most cases the Second Edition is
preferred.

C is so much more suited to general applications than Fortran that
limiting one's attention to science/engineering applications would
produce a quite imperfect understanding of how to exploit the language.

u714092@eagle.larc.nasa.gov (prichard devon ) (12/11/90)

In article <14699@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

   Xref: abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov comp.lang.fortran:1010 comp.lang.c:4411
   Path: abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!cs.utexas.edu!yale!cmcl2!adm!smoke!gwyn
   From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
   Newsgroups: comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.c
   Date: 10 Dec 90 19:55:58 GMT
   References: <27304.27610742@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> <6910@uceng.UC.EDU>
   Followup-To: comp.lang.fortran
   Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.
   Lines: 13


   C is so much more suited to general applications than Fortran that
   limiting one's attention to science/engineering applications would
   produce a quite imperfect understanding of how to exploit the language.
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

precisely the point of the current flame war; I'm not paid to exploit
the features of a programming language. I am paid to develop aerodynamic/
aeroacoustic prediction methods.  of course, in the fastest and cheapest
means possible.  for 95% of my problems requiring the use of the computer
to solve them, Fortran has been the tool to use. it has not yet become
cost effective for me to really learn any other programming language; the
5% which Fortran does not address well are either; hacked with Fortran,
reformulated to a more easily solved problem, or not solved.  

the average engineer ain't sitting around with his thumb up his *ss 
looking for new problems; he's trying to make time to solve the many
drudge tasks already on his desk (same for female engineers, of course :) ).

the two areas where, with C for example, another language does better than
Fortran, are; databasing of large amounts of experimental data, and
graphics/visualization.  and the databases we have can be 1-2 GB per run
of a flyover test. implicit double of C don't cut it there, either.

from a cost basis, until someone writes a new engineering-oriented
programming language that can be learned in 1-2 quarters in university,
is fast etc. like Fortran, then few employers will pay bucks to migrate
their programming to another language.  after all, not only is there
the cost of training all those engineers, but the down time when they
aren't working. in my case, even if someone picked up my salary for two
months and sent me to class, my supers wouldn't allow it, stuff's gotta
get done. and I'm not that important relative to the other grunts in my dept.
--
 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | Devon Prichard             making the world safe for helicopters ... |
 | u714092@eagle.larc.nasa.gov, prichard@ias.larc.nasa.gov              |
 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

rhl@grendel.Princeton.EDU (Robert Lupton (the Good)) (12/11/90)

Well, Doug has a reputation as a computer person so maybe they won't
take him seriously. I have a PhD in astrophysics, so I count as a 
scientist and I echo:

   Kernighan and Ritchie is the best book to learn C from if you have
appreciable computer experience. 

harrison@necssd.NEC.COM (Mark Harrison) (12/11/90)

In article <14699@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

> C is so much more suited to general applications than Fortran that
> limiting one's attention to science/engineering applications would
> produce a quite imperfect understanding of how to exploit the language.

One solution to this problem is to use both languages.  I helped some
EE's move some engineering applications to the PC, using Microsoft
Fortran.  One of the enhancements they made was to use Microsoft C for the
screen interface (Using the excellent shareware "Window Boss") and
file operations, and using Fortran for the number crunching.
-- 
Mark Harrison             harrison@necssd.NEC.COM
(214)518-5050             {necntc, cs.utexas.edu}!necssd!harrison
standard disclaimers apply...

doug@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Douglas W O'neal) (12/12/90)

In article <4624@idunno.Princeton.EDU> rhl@grendel.Princeton.EDU (Robert Lupton (the Good)) writes:
->
->Well, Doug has a reputation as a computer person so maybe they won't
->take him seriously. I have a PhD in astrophysics, so I count as a 
->scientist and I echo:
->
->   Kernighan and Ritchie is the best book to learn C from if you have
->appreciable computer experience. 

Agreed.  Use K&R second edition  (from a Ph.D. in theoretical chemistry).

-- 
Doug O'Neal, Distributed Systems Programmer, Johns Hopkins University
doug@jhuvms.bitnet, doug@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu, mimsy!aplcen!jhunix!doug 
Like many of the features of UNIX, UUCP appears theoretically 
unworkable... - DEC Professional, April 1990

userAKDU@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA (Al Dunbar) (12/12/90)

In article <14699@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
>In article <6910@uceng.UC.EDU> dmocsny@minerva.che.uc.edu (Daniel Mocsny) writes:
>>I have been trying to find and study all books which attempt to
>>present C language programming, or C program examples, to scientists
>>and engineers who are likely to have a background in FORTRAN.
>
>The absolutely best C tutorial for already experienced programmers
>who don't know C (are there any left?) is Kernighan and Ritchie's
>"The C Programming Language"; in most cases the Second Edition is
>preferred.
>
>C is so much more suited to general applications than Fortran that
>limiting one's attention to science/engineering applications would
>produce a quite imperfect understanding of how to exploit the language.
 
Limiting one's attention to science/engineering applications
may indeed hinder one's development as a C programmer. The goals
of those involved in such applications is usually more involved
with solving problems in those areas than with contemplating
the beauty of a three line recursive algorithm for calculating
Postal codes (i.e. Canadian ZIP code). Pardon the sarcasm,
but aren't a lot of afficionados trying to tell Fortran users
that C is better for what they want to do? If so, then why is it
not possible to impart this knowledge without bringing in what
is, to them, extraneous?
 
-------------------+-------------------------------------------
Al Dunbar          |
Edmonton, Alberta  |  "this mind left intentionally blank"
CANADA             |          - Manuel Writer
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userAKDU@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA (Al Dunbar) (12/12/90)

In article <14699@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
>In article <6910@uceng.UC.EDU> dmocsny@minerva.che.uc.edu (Daniel Mocsny) writes:
>>I have been trying to find and study all books which attempt to
<<<deletions>>>
>produce a quite imperfect understanding of how to exploit the language.
 
I am so tired of seeing the same sequences of articles in
different newsgroups that I am considering the possibility
of cross-posting myself! Actually, I would guess that I
already am cross-posting. Why not start up comp.lang.c.vs.ftn
for those topics of interest to readers of .c and .fortran?
 
-------------------+-------------------------------------------
Al Dunbar          |
Edmonton, Alberta  |  "this mind left intentionally blank"
CANADA             |          - Manuel Writer
-------------------+-------------------------------------------