mzw_t@hpujsda.HP.COM (Matsuzawa Takashi) (11/11/90)
Hi, I need information on POPLOG, the system developed at Univ. of Sussex. Is it in public domain and available on-line? Does anyone of you have experience with it? Thanks in advance...
6600dt@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (David Goggin) (11/16/90)
Please tell me how I can get a relitaviely inexpensive prolog, for MSDOS preferably PD or shareware. thanks in adavance.
mzw_t@hpujsda.HP.COM (Matsuzawa Takashi) (11/21/90)
Hi, For those have been interested in POPLOG, here is the summary of resposes I recieved so far. (Sorry for the wide re-distribution of private mails, but I thought other PROLOG users must be interested in POPLOG...) Thank you for your infromation! sfk@hplb.hpl.hp.com writes: =========================== > Secondly, you asked about experience with POPLOG. I am very > enthusiastic about POPLOG and have been involved with the POPLOG > User Group in England -- which I mention so that you understand > my bias! To clarify what you probably already know, POPLOG is > a programming development environment that directly supports 4 > programming languages. These languages are, in chronological > order of implementation, Pop11, Prolog, Common Lisp, and > Standard ML. The core language on which the system is built is > Pop11, a superior Lisp derivative. > > I have used POPLOG as both my daily programming environment, for > knock-about programming, and as a development environment since > 1984. In 1987, we developed an expert system for predicting > trends in international currency markets in POPLOG. This was a > significant system and was implemented in several expert system > building toolkits. It was characterised by requiring a > significant amount of number-crunching together with a moderate > amount of symbolic processing and a moderate amount of complex > heuristics. The only successful implementation was done in > POPLOG -- the other systems failed on grounds of engineering > inadequacy (e.g. bugs in garbage collection, inability to cope > with large arrays, etc) We were impressed by this display of > practical capability. > > The programming languages of POPLOG are characterised by being > implemented as incremental compilers. These act like > interpreters but generate native machine code. They are very > fast when compiling and generate tolerably efficient code. When > high number-crunching performance is required, I normally mix in > some C or FORTRAN routines, which is easy. > > The development environment is low-tech and was designed for use > in under-funded British Universities. This heritage shows in > comparison with another system I greatly admire -- SmallTalk. > Development in POPLOG does not compare well with development in > SmallTalk. However, the high speed of compilation and robustness > of the system means that, in practice, the system is comfortable > to use. (POPLOG is in the process of being integrated with Motif > and we have been using an alpha-release of this for a while.) > > Probably the most important quality of POPLOG to me is that it > is a comfortable AI development environment but starts at less > than 1Mb in size. The expert system mentioned above weighed in > at less than 4Mb when delivered -- an order of magnitude less > than with the expert system toolkits! In that system, garbage > collection was never noticed (it took about 0.5 secs every > few minutes). In the other implementations, garbage collection > was the signal to go and get a coffee. These engineering factors > give me confidence that when I embark on a project using POPLOG > it won't let me down. > > Almost as valuable is the fact that I haven't had to change from > POPLOG to another system. Because it is multi-language, I am > able to tackle a very wide range of problems using POPLOG. This > means that where my colleagues have changed between half-a-dozen > AI systems, my expertise in POPLOG has continued growing all the > time. So many of my colleagues are disenchanted with their tools > and are dismayed when yet another system promising so many > advantages comes along. By contrast, I am very pleased with > POPLOG and look with interest at other AI systems. > > I would summarise POPLOG as having the following advantages > * very comfortable for multi-language programming (esp. good > when programming in Prolog) > * compact (e.g. Common Lisp starts at less than 1.5Mb) > * eliminates the distinction between interpretation and > compilation with its high-speed compilation > * good standard of engineering means that the system does not > break down unexpectedly and does not degrade in performance > as it is tested on sizeable applications > * linked well with low-level languages such as C or Pascal > * tried and tested on significant applications > * HP Labs has excellent relations with the vendor ISL > > and the following disadvantages > * development environment is not graphical like Smalltalk > but based upon an EMACS-like editor > * debugging tools are not well-developed compared with Lisp > environments > * there is no support for software engineering -- you have > to use the UNIX tools > * there is no stand-alone delivery system -- although this should > be available by mid-1991 > * single vendor (Integral Solutions Ltd) > * not available on HPPA yet > > There are negative factors with programming in POPLOG and I have > tried to mention them above. Doubtless, using POPLOG from YHP > will expose some pragmatic difficulties (e.g. character set) > which I have never encountered. However, on balance I can > recommend POPLOG as a practical tool for complex programming > tasks which demand good performace. > -- Contact Addresses -------------------------------------------------------- > > All commercial sales outside USA and Canada are handled by: > Integral Solutions Ltd > Unit 3, Campbell Court > Bramley, > Basingstoke, > Hampshire, > RG26 5EG > Phone +44 (0)256 882028 Fax +44 (0)256 882182 > > Email isl@integ.uucp > > British Educational customers may obtain Poplog from Sussex University. > Orders and enquiries to > POPLOG Sales > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > University of Sussex > Brighton > BN1 9QN > ENGLAND Phone 0273 606755 (Ask for the POPLOG Manager) > > UK educational orders may be addressed to Ms Alison Mudd at the > above address. > nteg!colin@hpfcla.fc.hp.com.UUCP (Colin Shearer) writes: ======================================================== > Our > company, Integral Solutions Ltd., markets POPLOG worldwide. > > In Japan, it is distributed by : > > Shoshin > Nissho Building > 2-4 Muromachi > Nihonbashi > Chuo-Ku > Tokyo 103-91 > > (PO Box Nihonbshi 173) > If you wish to contact some users, try the following mail group : > > POP-FORUM@hpl.hp.co.uk sjmz@hplb.hpl.hp.com writes: =========================== > one of our people is on the > British Standards Institute committee to standardise POP-11, the "core" > language of the system > * The system is NOT public domain. Commercial licenses are around $4,000 > per system (that's a VERY approximate figure!). Universities get a large > academic discount --- around 90%.