spf@clyde.UUCP (01/01/70)
In article <2176@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
*The cheapest validated personal computer Ada compiler still
*porks in above $1000, last I heard.
Just for your interest, my Meridian Ada system for my AT&T 6300 cost:
$129.95 Unvalidated compiler
39.95 DOS environment package
39.95 Utility package
_______
$209.85 Sub-total (Unvalidated system)
50.00 Validated compiler upgrade
10.00 DOS package upgrade
10.00 Utility package upgrade
_______
$279.85 TOTAL VALIDATED ADA SYSTEM WITH DOS SUPPORT
Guess you should have bought Meridian when they were nobody :-) !
Peace, Steve Frysingerlen@array.UUCP (Leonard Vanek) (08/17/87)
I could not resist pointing this comment out to the readers of comp.lang.ada. It seems that the (lack of) credibility of Ada(tm) is simply taken for granted in some circles. In article <7197@think.UUCP> barmar@godot.think.com.UUCP (Barry Margolin) writes: >I agree with the original poster, the programs (but not the >algorithms) in Knuth are useless. ... > If he really wants to include >programs, but doesn't want people to simply copy them, he could write >them in pseudocode or Ada(tm). Len Vanek {utzoo mnetor}!dciem!array!len Array Systems Computing Toronto
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (08/19/87)
In article <524@array.UUCP> len@array.UUCP (Leonard Vanek) writes: >I could not resist pointing this comment out to the readers of comp.lang.ada. >It seems that the (lack of) credibility of Ada(tm) is simply taken for >granted in some circles. > >In article <7197@think.UUCP> barmar@godot.think.com.UUCP (Barry Margolin) >writes: > >>I agree with the original poster, the programs (but not the >>algorithms) in Knuth are useless. > ... >> If he really wants to include >>programs, but doesn't want people to simply copy them, he could write >>them in pseudocode or Ada(tm). I think (or maybe "For me") this is less a problem with Ada's credibility, than with the availability of compilers for the casual user. The cheapest validated personal computer Ada compiler still porks in above $1000, last I heard. (I've given up waiting, and ordered a Modula 2 compiler for personal use, $200 list.) So, code written in Ada might as well be pseudocode, for all most of us care for our own use. I still use Ada in the mainframe to which I have access, as, I'm sure, do most readers of this group, but that does zip for me in picking a language to teach my kids (after Logo, the _only_ first language for kids), or to use to write spiffy toys for the fun of it. DOD could save grunches of training costs downstream by sponsoring high quality, validated, PUBLIC DOMAIN Ada(tm) compilers for the existing suitable home computers now. The Mac, the PC-AT and clones, the Amiga 500/1000/2000, and the Atari come to mind as likely targets for such an effort. This would probably be a direct 100 or 1000 to 1 benefit to cost ratio in terms of DOD and other government training money saved by having folks train themselves in Ada, and would aid the entire national software productivity picture by vastly upgrading the use of a maintainable, software engineering oriented language nationwide, as a no added cost side benefit. At the rate things are going, it might be 5 years before a validated Ada compiler priced for the home user is available. That is just five more years of DOD funding essentially all Ada training. The excessive (better, not sensitive to company size) cost of validation probably prevents a lot of small companies from considering making a splash in the Ada compiler pool. (The 20 man years or so of high priced talent required doesn't help a lot, either, of course.) [Am I shouting loud enough, AJPO? NASA? I tend to get hoarse, and give up in despair, if I have to do this kind of stuff for long.] Kent, the man from xanth.
sdl@linus.UUCP (Steven D. Litvintchouk) (08/19/87)
Posting-Front-End: GNU Emacs 18.47.1 of Sun Aug 2 1987 on linus (berkeley-unix) In article <2176@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > DOD could save grunches of training costs downstream by sponsoring > high quality, validated, PUBLIC DOMAIN Ada(tm) compilers for the > existing suitable home computers now. The DoD already sponsored the development of two Ada compilers + associated toolsets: the Army Ada Language System, and the Air Force Ada Integrated Environment. For various reasons, these were not entirely successful, especially compared to the commercial efforts. > The Mac, the PC-AT and clones, > the Amiga 500/1000/2000, and the Atari come to mind as likely targets > for such an effort. This would probably be a direct 100 or 1000 to 1 > benefit to cost ratio in terms of DOD and other government training > money saved by having folks train themselves in Ada, and would aid the > entire national software productivity picture by vastly upgrading the > use of a maintainable, software engineering oriented language > nationwide, as a no added cost side benefit. I agree wholeheartedly. The Amiga is especially interesting because of its multitasking exec built into hardware. With multitasking supported by message passing, the Amiga might provide a highly efficient runtime environment for Ada. Have any Ada compiler writers looked at the Amiga either as a host or target? > At the rate things are going, it might be 5 years before a validated > Ada compiler priced for the home user is available. That is just five > more years of DOD funding essentially all Ada training. Meridian is developing a compiler for the IBM PC, and it's logical to assume that they or someone else will host/target the Mac. > The excessive (better, not sensitive to company size) cost of > validation probably prevents a lot of small companies from considering > making a splash in the Ada compiler pool. (The 20 man years or so of > high priced talent required doesn't help a lot, either, of course.) Perhaps another reason is that Ada compilers wouldn't compare favorably with Turbo Pascal, Manx C, etc., because of: a. Efficiency: I can get a Modula-2 compiler for my Amiga that generates code comparable in efficiency to C. Also, I can run everything, libraries and all, off a single floppy. What Ada compilers can do a comparable job in compilation and runtime efficiency? Will I be forced to buy a 50 megabyte hard disk to host the Ada libraries on my Amiga? b. Target environment: Again, the Modula-2 compiler for my Amiga provides a *full* language interface to the graphics routines, the windowing interface, the Amiga exec, the ROM routines, etc. Essentially I can program nearly anything in Modula-2 that I can program in C. But most Ada compilers don't provide such wide interfaces to the target machine. It's ridiculous for Alsys, say, to sell a PC compiler that takes over the whole machine, bypasses MS-DOS, and requires a special board. There are two kinds of Ada users: those who program in Ada because the DoD tells them to, and those who program in Ada because they genuinely feel it's a superior programming language. If you want to reach this latter group of users, you must provide the same kinds of efficiency and support facilities that people have come to expect from C, Turbo Pascal, etc. The excuse that it's OK that Ada compilers consume a lot of resources because they're doing so much work to process *huge* multiperson software wears a little thin in the PC world; I don't write huge multiperson programs on my Amiga. Steven Litvintchouk MITRE Corporation Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 Fone: (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford.arpa UUCP: ...{cbosgd,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,philabs,security,utzoo}!linus!sdl
arny@wayback.UUCP (Arny B. Engelson) (08/20/87)
In article <11466@linus.UUCP>, sdl@linus.UUCP (Steven D. Litvintchouk) writes: > > In article <2176@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > > > DOD could save grunches of training costs downstream by sponsoring > > high quality, validated, PUBLIC DOMAIN Ada(tm) compilers for the > > existing suitable home computers now. > > > At the rate things are going, it might be 5 years before a validated > > Ada compiler priced for the home user is available. That is just five > > more years of DOD funding essentially all Ada training. > > Meridian is developing a compiler for the IBM PC, and it's logical to > assume that they or someone else will host/target the Mac. > I'm not in any way associated with Meridian Software Systems, but since I have this month's Defence Science and Electronics in front of me, and it's relevant to this discussion, this is what Meridian says in the ad they have in this magazine: (paraphrased) Meridian's AdaVantage v2.0 has been validated on the IBM PC/XT, IBM PC/AT, and the Zenith Z-248. They list a whole bunch of Chapter 13 stuff that they implemented. The ad says the compiler runs with 640K, a hard disk, and DOS v2.1 or higher. The price is listed at $795 (in single quantities) and they claim it compiles about 1000 lines/minute on an IBM PC/AT. Additional info from the ad: An AdaTraining compiler (aimed at the educational folks) sells for $395, and an AdaStarter compiler for $129, which they say incorporates all the features, but limits the number of library units and lines per compilation unit. Some DOS utility routine packages are also available for $50, and they claim a source level debugger and Ada editor will be available in the fall. Seems to me like a short 5 years, doesn't it? I've never seen these tools, but it sure sounds like they're heading in the right direction. Hopefully, we'll soon see a lot more Ada tools in this price range. As a courtesy (and so people don't contact me about it), here are the numbers to contact them: outside Calif: (800)221-2522, inside: (714)380-9800. Arny B. Engelson {ihnp4|bonnie|clyde}!wayback!arny
gibian@turbo.RAY.COM (Marc Gibian SUD x 3393) (08/21/87)
I can not remain silent after reading the referenced posting. As a member of the corporate world attempting to use ADA for one of its designated purposes, embedded military systems, a validated ADA compiler for home computers seems a useless piece of software. ADA was not designed to allow the development of inexpensive compilers. It was designed (for better or for worse) for military software, usually very large software systems, where the cost of the compiler is a very small part of the overall budget. There are certainly lots of things to fault in ADA, but this is not one. -- Marc S. Gibian Senior Software Engineer SSL, Raytheon phone: (617) 440-3393 mail: gibian@turbo.ray.com or gibian@sud.ray.com
ESC1332@ESOC.BITNET ("K.Keyte") (08/21/87)
With regards to the posting from Marc Gibion.. The mistake made in the posting was to assume that people were _critisising_ ADA for not being simple to implement on personal computers. This isn't the point, and it is indeed a challenge for people interested in ADA to try to obtain a verified ADA compiler for a PC. The attitude in the posting was typical of the arrogant nature of a lot of people in the defence industry [apologies to those others in the defence industry who consider themselves not arrogant :-) ] who think that their ENOURMOUS power makes them unique in some kind of way. Well tough! They haven't got the brainpower [not meant to reflect on any individual] to match the huge enthusiast population and the professional/semi-professional community. There WILL be an increasing number of validated ADA compilers for home computers no matter what the DoD do to the language. Maybe the array processors might be missing, but the completeness of the language will be there. Personal Computers are growing beyond comprehension, and I look forward to the day when VLSI technology such as the Transputer will be put into practice in small machines for general use; forcing many people to realise that THEY'VE MADE A BIG MISTAKE. So Militarists out there, cut out the rubbish, and stop trying to justify wasting such huge amounts of money - you'll never manage it.
spf@moss.ATT.COM (08/21/87)
In article <1191@wayback.UUCP> arny@wayback.UUCP (Arny B. Engelson) writes: >I'm not in any way associated with Meridian Software Systems, but since I >have this month's Defence Science and Electronics in front of me, and it's >relevant to this discussion, this is what Meridian says in the ad they have >in this magazine: > (paraphrased) >Meridian's AdaVantage v2.0 has been validated on the IBM PC/XT, IBM PC/AT, >and the Zenith Z-248. They list a whole bunch of Chapter 13 stuff that they >implemented. The ad says the compiler runs with 640K, a hard disk, and DOS >v2.1 or higher. The price is listed at $795 (in single quantities) and they >claim it compiles about 1000 lines/minute on an IBM PC/AT. I have the pre-validation version of the Meridian Ada compiler running on my AT&T PC 6300. While I've only thrown some casual programs at it in my spare time, its performance and useability were pretty much the same as my MS C and Pascal compilers. Now that it's validated, I think I'm supposed to get the validated version for $50, since I bought a pre-V copy. When I get time, I'll try to exercise it (and my limited knowledge of Ada) more and report my experiences. Peace, Steve Frysinger
Bryan@SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU (Doug Bryan) (08/21/87)
oh come now, an IBM PC is no longer a "home" computer. if it were, IBM would have never ventured into the PC market. Also, there is nothing about military software that makes it any harder or easier to implement than many, many other kinds of software. Ada is just a tool. if it helps you do your job, use it. doug -------
kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) (08/23/87)
In article <1191@wayback.UUCP> arny@wayback.UUCP (Arny B. Engelson) writes: >In article <11466@linus.UUCP>, sdl@linus.UUCP (Steven D. Litvintchouk) writes: >> >> In article <2176@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >> >> > DOD could save grunches of training costs downstream by sponsoring >> > high quality, validated, PUBLIC DOMAIN Ada(tm) compilers for the >> > existing suitable home computers now. >> >> > At the rate things are going, it might be 5 years before a validated >> > Ada compiler priced for the home user is available. That is just five >> > more years of DOD funding essentially all Ada training. >> >> Meridian is developing a compiler for the IBM PC, and it's logical to >> assume that they or someone else will host/target the Mac. >> > >[...] this is what Meridian says [in an ad] (paraphrased): >Meridian's AdaVantage v2.0 has been validated on the IBM PC/XT, IBM PC/AT, >and the Zenith Z-248. [...] The price is listed at $795 [...] >An AdaTraining compiler (aimed at the educational folks) sells for $395, >and an AdaStarter compiler for $129, which they say incorporates all the >features, but limits the number of library units and lines per compilation >unit. [...] Seems to me like a short 5 years, doesn't it? > >I've never seen these tools, but it sure sounds like they're heading in the >right direction. Hopefully, we'll soon see a lot more Ada tools in this >price range. >Arny B. Engelson {ihnp4|bonnie|clyde}!wayback!arny I was aware of the Meridian ad when I made the previous posting, although it was conveyed to me as $795 PRE-validated, and a bit over $1000 validated. This is still way off the mark, as is a crippled version (why bother?) at $139. The price needs to get down to Turbo Pascal's $49.95 introductory offer, to penetrate a market which is, after all, not clamoring for Ada compilers in the $800-$1000 range. Meridian's offering is a big improvement over the previous Alsys offering in terms of price: a three or fourfold improvement, I think, but it surely isn't going to put Ada(tm) in the hands of every school kid in America. On the other hand, DOD could probably buy the rights to Meridian's product for well under $10,000,000, (getting the first Ada compiler ever procured by DOD on a firm, fixed price contract and delivered on schedule!) and use it to promulgate Ada throughout the land. Just a dream of course. When has the government ever done anything rational? ;-) After all, they used to employ me! Kent, the man from xanth.
harris@xyzzy.UUCP (Mark Harris) (08/24/87)
In article <2237@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > The price needs to get down to Turbo >Pascal's $49.95 introductory offer, to penetrate a market which is, >after all, not clamoring for Ada compilers in the $800-$1000 range. > Oddly enough, I read recently in PC Week that Borland is considering the idea of an Ada compiler. Mark Harris
4526P@NAVPGS.BITNET ("LT Scott A. Norton, USN") (08/24/87)
With all the "my language is better than your language" noise going on,
I thought I should provide some perspective. There is one overriding
concern in DoD's world of software embedded in weapon systems.
MAINTENENCE
Consider that most DoD weapon systems have a life cycle of over 20 years,
and that that lifetime is full of changes. ( Don't quote me on this
number, since I don't have my references handy, but I think that avionics
software has 50% of the code rewritten every 6 years. )
My previous assignment was as Tactical Data Systems Maintenance Officer on
a 20-year old guided missile cruiser. The NTDS program was 25 years old,
since it was deployed on a previous class of ship. In 25 years, just
imagine the changes that took place:
Replacement of analog fire control systems by digital.
Introduction of Harpoon surface-to-surface missiles.
Interface with digital sonar.
Automatic tracking radars and IFF systems.
Replacement of electronic warfare systems.
Support for the F-14 fighter, with a two-way data link and multiple
intercept capability.
Also realize that in a 25-year lifecycle, many participants have a
hand in the software. Components are produced and maintained by Navy
activities, contractors, and research labs. Univac wrote one module,
which is maintained by NavSeaTechRep, St Paul; Johns Hopkins APL wrote
another, which was turned over to missileers to maintain. The data
link was written by a contractor to conform to a joint Army-Navy-Air
Force standard, and then maintained by FCDSSA, a Navy activity. So,
the program must stand on its own, without the benefit of corporate
knowledge or the "Lord High Fixer", who was there when it was
originally written. Doug Bryan wrote
<12328308981.12.Bryan@Sierra.Stanford.EDU>
>... there is nothing about military software that makes it any
>harder or easier to implement than many, many other kinds of
>software.
The software that Ada was meant for, embeded in weapon systems, is
harder to implement than most, since it operates under strict
constraints of time, size, and correctness. But most important,
its lifetime is as long as any COBOL banking application, and yet
as full of changes as any operating system.
LT Scott A. Norton, USN
Naval Postgraduate School
Monterey, CA 93943-5018
4526P@NavPGS.BITNETdragon@trwspf.TRW.COM (Roger Vossler) (08/25/87)
In article <2176@xanth.UUCP> kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
*The cheapest validated personal computer Ada compiler still
*porks in above $1000, last I heard. (I've given up waiting, and
*ordered a Modula 2 compiler for personal use, $200 list.) So, code
*written in Ada might as well be pseudocode, for all most of us care
*for our own use.
Although we are a large defense contractor and are using Ada, members of
my group have used Modula-2 very successfully on a number of efforts
internally. Modula-2 makes a very nice, small, cheap, fast, and powerful
subset of Ada, particularly, when we have to pay for it out of our own
pockets. 8-) Taxpayers may not be too concerned about how their money is
spent, but stockholders are less charitable.
--
-- Roger Vossler
TRW, Bldg O2-1395, One Space Park, Redondo Beach, CA 90278
BIX: rvossler UseNet: dragon@trwspf.trw.com
ATT: 213.535.2804 ....!sdcrdc!trwrb!trwspf!dragonagnew@trwrc.UUCP (R.A. Agnew) (08/25/87)
In article <8708241851.AA01472@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> 4526P@NAVPGS.BITNET ("LT Scott A. Norton, USN") writes: >With all the "my language is better than your language" noise going on, >I thought I should provide some perspective. There is one overriding >concern in DoD's world of software embedded in weapon systems. > Thanks, about time for some perspective. Perhaps people should know what FCDSSA has to do to maintain that code. They actully keep dozens of huge NTDS complete computer systems at thier facility. When they want to support a particular ship they must pull out the installation diagrams for the ship, actually configure (patch with wires) the system for that ship, and then try to maintain the software; but it seldom works because, besides the hundreds of authorized documented changes, there are dozens of "Ship-alts" to the software ( like playing Pong with the target designator "hooks"). SCCS or RCS would have been usefull here. Perhaps some people don't know that the life-cycle of DOD tactical software is 30 years. 10 years to insert into operation, 10 years usage, and 10 years to phase out. Perhaps they don't know that it only cost $75 to $100 to design, code, debug, document and test one line of HOL software but that it takes millions of dollars to maintain a small program for thirty years. Of all the factors involved in the Life-Cycle-Cost (LCC) of a modern system (say an avionics system with several hundred imbeded computers!) the software developement and maintenance cost are by far the most dominant -- far greater than the hardware!!!!!