casado@mdlrth.dnet (Ben x2302) (02/28/89)
> This is a common problem in the government. The majority of the > government's software is in COBOL, and a good many of its programmers > know nothing about C, PASCAL, etc. The major reason for this is that > the government can not recruit people with any type of CS degree. How > many CS majors out there would be willing to start at $14,000? But a > lot of secretaries, computer operators, and low level managers are > willing to become 'programmers' in order to reap the riches of computer > industry. I worked for the government for awhile and everything was > done in COBOL with a little systems work done in Algol(Burroughs shop). > Management kept saying that the DOD had mandated ADA as a programming > language of the future but from what I saw, only about 10% of the > programmers would be able to comprehend ADA or would be willing to try. > Personally, I don't see the government completely switching from COBOL > to ADA because of the expense of conversion, cost of training, and > resistance to change. However, the trend in the government is to contract > out this type of work, so who knows. Dear Mr. Alan Beal: My name is Ben Casado, I am currently working at Lockheed Electronics Corporation, Plainfield N.J., and I am writing in response to the comments you made in February 26. Perhaps instead of a statement, what you should have written was a question to the people involved in this activity, to find out what the government is doing as far as training their personnel in Ada technology. Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private industry. In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get trained in Ada and Software Engineering. After that year I was transferred to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue my training. There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software Engineering at Monmouth College. The department of the army, more in particular AST at CECOM Ft. Monmouth N.J., is doing serious training in Ada and Software Engineering and is investing a lot of money to get their personnel trained. Perhaps you should do a little research and learn about what is been done by this organization. I am speaking in defense of the department of the army, and I am sure that the others branches of the DOD are investing as well. Before you get involved in a public activity such as this one and make unbacked allegations about the DOD, perhaps a little research should be done on your part. If you Mr. Beal, or any other is interested in finding more about the training that I received in order to learned what is being done at the government, call at (201) 757-1600 ext 2472, or after hours at (201) 359-2296. Ben Casado Lockheed Electronics Corporation, Advanced Programs. lecgwy!mdlrth.dnet!casado@rutgers.edu
beal@ketch.cis.ohio-state.edu (Alan Beal) (02/28/89)
In article <8902280023.AA20727@rutgers.edu> casado@mdlrth.dnet (Ben x2302) writes: > Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and >not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada >language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an >education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private >industry. Ok, I worked for the defense department(really Defense Logistics Agency) for 5 years. I started out without any degree in CS, ADP, etc but was recruited into a 3 year intern program to train me how to program in COBOL. One person was trained in ADA the whole time I was there - this is out of about 60-70 programmers. There was lip service to how the defense department had mandated that all new software be programmed in ADA. When I left(in Sept), the score was COBOL 3000, ADA 0. I have a friend who worked for an Air Force cataloging agency and then for the Navy. I don't recall any mention of ADA training or its use by him. I may have been premature in implying that the government isn't using ADA at this time or isn't planning to use ADA in the future. My opinion is that there will be some areas in which ADA will be used but I feel a great deal of the programming will continue to be done in COBOL for many years to come. It is true that the government invests a lot of money in training, but I question if it is always well spent. After all, there are those of us who willing accept this training and then leave. I have seen numerous cases where people claimed they couldn't program in language XYZ, but once they received training in language XYZ, about one month later it would be hard to get those people to do even the most basic programming in that language. At this point, they suddenly get a job as a systems analyst. >In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get >trained in Ada and Software Engineering. After that year I was transferred >to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue >my training. There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also >received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software >Engineering at Monmouth College. I am curious why you aren't still with the government if it was such the progressive, modern environment that you depict. I would predict you are probably making at least one-half again as much as you were with the government. Now Lockheed is benefiting from the investment of the government on your behalf. > Before you get involved in a public activity such as this one and make >unbacked allegations about the DOD, perhaps a little research should be >done on your part. I was just commenting on my experiences with the government, and I agree my statements may have been a little too general and perhaps I should not have been speaking for the defense department as a whole. But then after 5 years, I could really tell you some horror stories. -=- Alan Beal The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science beal@cis.ohio-state.edu {pyramid,killer}!osu-cis!cis.ohio-state.edu!beal
wbralick@afit-ab.arpa (William A. Bralick) (02/28/89)
In article <37413@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Alan Beal <beal@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: > I may have been premature in implying that the government isn't using ADA > at this time or isn't planning to use ADA in the future. Rest assured that the government has plenty of Air Defense Artillery units. The ADA is certainly a critical element of our force structure. This discussion is probably better suited to sci.military, though. (I know, but I couldn't help myself :-) Regards, -- Will Bralick : wbralick@afit-ab.arpa | If we desire to defeat the enemy, Air Force Institute of Technology, | we must proportion our efforts to | his powers of resistance. with disclaimer; use disclaimer; | - Carl von Clauswitz
ntm1063@dsacg1.UUCP (James Haskins) (03/01/89)
From article <37413@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>, by beal@ketch.cis.ohio-state.edu (Alan Beal): > In article <8902280023.AA20727@rutgers.edu> casado@mdlrth.dnet (Ben x2302) writes: > > Ok, I worked for the defense department(really Defense Logistics Agency) > for 5 years. I started out without any degree in CS, ADP, etc but was > recruited into a 3 year intern program to train me how to program in > COBOL. One person was trained in ADA the whole time I was there - this > is out of about 60-70 programmers. There was lip service to how the > defense department had mandated that all new software be programmed in > ADA. When I left(in Sept), the score was COBOL 3000, ADA 0. > Why did it surprise you that DLSC showed little enthusiasm for ADA? If things are still as I recall them when I left in 82, well over 90 % of DIDS and the other subsidiary systems are written in COBOL and the organization is principally operating in maintenance mode. DLA as a whole has not completely ignored the subject. Here at DSAC (for the rest of the readers this is the principal design activity for DLA), an ADA task group worked for nearly two years. A cadre of folks was trained and did some development work on various prototype demos. While it is true that this has not led to a stampede to get the agency converted to ADA, it is evidence that we have not taken a totally complacent attitude. For the rest of the readers, don't be surprised if ADA is slow to "take over" DoD. Like everyone else in the industry, we have a large installed base of software written in other languages. There are some here that would argue that a move to C, for portability reasons, would make sense in some cases. If ADA takes over, the process will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. > It is true that the government invests a lot of money in training, but I > question if it is always well spent. After all, there are those of us > who willing accept this training and then leave. I have seen numerous > cases where people claimed they couldn't program in language XYZ, but > once they received training in language XYZ, about one month > later it would be hard to get those people to do even the most basic > programming in that language. At this point, they suddenly get a job as a systems analyst. > > I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard this argument about the low mentality of government workers. Even government workers often engage in this form of "fed bashing". It is hard to attract job candidates, especially at the entry level, because we can't offer competitive salaries. We lost two coop students, students that we had provided the opportunity to gain experience through summer employment while they were completing college, to IBM and AT&T because we could not match the starting salaries. However, in many places, like Battle Creek or Columbus, the journeyman salaries are generally competitive, at least for most programming jobs. Folks who complain about the way the government operates and the people who work for it but who refuse to work for the government themselves don't have a bitch coming when the government doesn't act the way they think it should.> > Alan Beal > The Ohio State University > Department of Computer and Information Science > beal@cis.ohio-state.edu {pyramid,killer}!osu-cis!cis.ohio-state.edu!beal -- Jim Haskins DLA Systems Automation Center | 614 238-9432 DSAC-TMP P.O. Box 1605 Columbus, Ohio 43216 | Autovon 850- All opinions expressed are mine alone etc., etc.
AMXMC-SEL@WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL (Mark Oestmann) (03/02/89)
Ben Casado writes, > Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and > not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada > language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an > education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private > industry. In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get > trained in Ada and Software Engineering. After that year I was transferred > to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue > my training. There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also > received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software > Engineering at Monmouth College. > The department of the army, more in particular AST at CECOM Ft. Monmouth > N.J., is doing serious training in Ada and Software Engineering and is > investing a lot of money to get their personnel trained. Perhaps you should > do a little research and learn about what is been done by this organization. > I am speaking in defense of the department of the army, and I am sure that the > others branches of the DOD are investing as well. It appears that our organization needs to be made a little more visible. The School of Engineering and Logistics located at Red River Army Depot in Texarkana, Texas trains civilian engineers and logisticians for the Army Material Command (AMC) and other government agencies. Software Engineering is one of the six engineering programs taught at the school. The Software Engineering program is in its third year of existence. The program of instruction is one year in length and Ada is the core language of the program. Each student brought into the program must have a Bachelor's degree in engineering. The AMC software engineers also have a second year of training and work at Monmouth College and CECOM, Ft. Monmouth, NJ. The second year of training incidentally leads to a Master's degree in Software Engineering. Ada is also taught in the other five engineering programs. Mark Oestmann School of Engineering and Logistics Red River Army Depot Texarkana, TX 75507-5000 214/334-3335 AMXMC-SEL@SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL -------