ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/05/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 10 Sun Dec 24, 1989 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 15:09 CST ALL GRAY OR ONLY PARTIALLY GRAY? In the Dec 21st RTC, Gary asked when was the last time I saw Forth programmer who didn't have gray hair. I immediately ran to my mirror and to my horror discovered I do have some gray hair. How can this be? It's not like I've gotten older on purpose. Actually, I don't mind the gray hair. I've known for a long time that it would be a race between my hair turning gray and going completely bald. I don't know which will win. The RTC discussed rejuvenating Forth or FIG or whatever. (I believe the word rejuvenate means to make young again.) This reminded me of the discussions (tirades?) in '73 Magazine by Wayne Green on the subject of recruiting new, young radio amateurs. Do we do something for ourselves by introducing Forth to kids? Maybe. That seemed to be the theme. Just as an aside, there might be another way of looking at this. If we felt benevolent toward kids we might search for the BEST thing we could give them - for their benefit, not ours - and therefore give them Forth. In other words, we might not need to give the gift of Forth, but it would be a kindness to the recipient if we did so. Anyway, is Forth an endangered species thing for which donations are solicited? Some people I know are always receiving Save the This and Save the That (Poor Little Animal) pitches. I figure they are all just gimmicks that only make money for the solicitors and do nothing for the animals. Obviously the Forth appeals to spread the word are not exactly the same. Jax says the April renewal date for FIG annoys the hell out of the members. As a member I'd like to say that it does not annoy me in the slightest. Whether it annoys others I cannot say. I like that the membership is for the entire year including all FD issues, regardless of when you subscribe. Do we really want to attract youth into FIG? If so, I think that the FIG membership should be restored to $15 per year. This has been discussed before, and this is still my opinion. I receive the answer that costs are up and FIG cannot afford to do it. Maybe so, but maybe FIG cannot afford not to do it! I think the PD/shareware disk sales of FIG is a good idea and hope it brings in some revenue. With the lower membership fees perhaps those disks would be offered to a much larger audience, huh? Maybe with a much larger audience (due to lower membership fees) more advertising would be placed in FD, huh? I suspect we will never have as enthusiasts the huge numbers that C & Pascal & BASIC have. So what! The wine doing the greatest dollar or bottle volume is probably not the highest quality wine. Speaking of wine, what about wimmin? What are we gonna do to recruit some wimmin? To hell with the children. -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/05/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 13 Sat Dec 30, 1989 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 15:43 CST Jax,thanks for clarifying it. Maybe April-April is putting off some prospective members - I don't know. Surely you talk to more new members than I do. All I could say is that it doesn't bother me. I still think it is possible that the CHANGE from $15/year to $30/year may have something to do with the declining membership, and especially affect our ability to reach the "younger generation." Of course $30 is not a major barrier to professionals working in Forth who already understand the value of Forth. But, aren't we trying to get the ones who aren't sure yet, ... before they become sure of C or Pascal, etc? Now, this is mainly theoretical on my part. I'm not on a mission to recruit new Forth programmers. I'm enough as far as I'm concerned, except I sure do like talking to the rest of you out there and hearing your ideas. Further, I don't know anyway to prove one way or the other that the change in membership fee was the major factor. If it is changed back to $15 and membership booms over the next several years people can always say that the fee had nothing to do with it, that other factors caused it. Now whether Apr-Apr leads to deluded financial planning is another question. It reminds my of an all too typical accounting cycle: the bookkeeping is backlogged. The end of the year happens (let's say Dec 31st). The ending inventory is counted but not priced out. It was exhausting, so the pricing is delayed. The bookkeeping falls further behind. A tax extension is obtained. Finally in late June or July the books are caught up thru Dec 31st and financial statements are pulled so tax returns can be done. The boss looks at the statements briefly but takes no action because they are so far out of date that he figures he'll wait till next year. Just because he was losing money THEN doesn't mean anything NOW as he's already more than half way thru the next year. Hopefully this doesn't apply to fig. -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/05/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 14 Sat Dec 30, 1989 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 15:43 CST To Ben Combee I'm glad you asked. First, I do not know what the best PD Forth is. They are different and serve different purposes and, like shoes, what fits one person well may be uncomfortable for someone else. Second, F83 from 1984 IS a good Forth. I highly recommend it. Especially if available on a local BBS, it might be the best deal for the money. There are some variants I've heard about but not seen that are probably even better (but F83 still deserves a thank you, I think, from all of us for inspiring the variants). I've also heard F-PC is very good. It is also VERY large, which might be a problem, especially if you do not have a hard disk. Philosophically, I am not happy with the idea of a very large Forth. I'm still working through this and may clarify my thinking someday to the point where I will be happy with it. In the meantime, I have put together Pygmy Forth. It is not PD but it is freely available. I am about to upload the latest version, v1.2, to GEnie. The entire system includes PYGMY.COM with fast full-screen editor, assembler, meta-compiler, and ability to have up to 15 files open simultaneously. Full source code and documentation for all the above is included, as well as a Starting Forth compatibility file. Pygmy Forth is based loosely on cmFORTH. The entire package fits in a less than 75K byte archive file! Unarchived, all the files fit comfortably on a 360K floppy. If you have a limited system, this might be worth considering. It should be available here on GEnie in the next week or so and eventually on other BBSs. As usual, if anyone finds it inconvenient to download he may send me some money (809 W. San Antonio St., San Marcos, TX 78666) and I'll send the latest version on a 5-1/4" 360K floppy. -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/06/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 16 Thu Jan 04, 1990
F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 00:24 CST
KO'H> Maybe FIG should consider a student membership rate, say $15/yr
I'd be happy for $15/yr for everyone, including students, but I am
completely against a two level membership structure. I believe fig started
out for hobbiests and amateurs ("lovers") and should not move very far from
those roots. I had a momentary mental pang when I posted my earlier message,
fearing that I might be encouraging just such a suggestion as yours.
-- Frank
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/06/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 17 Fri Jan 05, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 00:00 EST Frank, why are you against a tiered membership system? A problem we have with lowering the rates is that Forth Dimensions costs over $25/year at the current quantities. This leaves us two choices, cut the quality so we can lower the costs or increase the quantities so the costs are lower. Personally, I prefer the latter. The alternative is going back to the zeroxed issues of 4D. Is that what you want? DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/08/90)
Message 19 Sun Jan 07, 1990
F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 13:52 CST
Dennis, I am not sure exactly why I am against the tiered membership price
system. However, I am against it, and wanted to express my view. Perhaps I
feel that it is another example of creeping (perhaps rampant, running,
leaping) socialism/Marxism ("from each according ..."). This objection might
be overcome if different fees buy different things.
Also, I am glad that I am not the one who must manage fig. I appreciate the
efforts of those who are willing to manage it. Therefore, whatever they who
are ON THE SPOT decide deserves a certain respect. It is easy for me to toss
out theories, such as that raising the membership fee is the major cause of
fig's declining membership and that lowering the fee might restore us to our
former glory. (That theory is not original with me.) I don't want the fee
lowered on the basis of whether someone is or is not a student.
I'll accept Forth Dimensions in whatever condition you send it to me. The
slick covers are wasted on me (and I rather liked the table of contents on the
outside!).
-- Frank
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/08/90)
Message 20 Sun Jan 07, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 20:43 EST I appreaciate your comments Frank, and anyone else who is willing to speak out instead of just dropping out. We are trying to stay the decline as best we can, but we sincerely need your feedback to help guide our efforts. Looking strictly at the numbers, I too was convinced that raising the membership fee caused the decline in membership. I'm sure it was a factor, however, it was not the only cause. Our membership peaked in 1984, but at $15 we were loosing money on every subscription. We raised the rates to $20 in 1985 and lost 9% of our members and another 15% in 1986. We were still not breaking even on subscriptions so we raised the rates again to $30 in 1987 and that drove another 30% of you away. Since then, we have been just about holding our own, but with only 1/2 the members we had in 1984. These numbers show a reason (the higher rates) for the declining membership, but they don't show the whole story. We also have a declining industry in about the same time frames being reported by each of the vendors. I also have to admit to other internal problems that have contributed to the fall, and I am not convinced that all of those problems have been resolved. However, this is history and we can only change what we will do in the future. All of your input is indespensible for us to identify the problems inherited from the past and correct our course into the future. Thank you for the input. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated program. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'