koopman@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Philip Koopman) (01/19/90)
In article <6224@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, ir230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (john wavrik) writes: > Phil Koopman says we have to market Forth. Could we really get away with > an ad campaign that says: > "Remember how much fun programming used to be? It still is > with Forth" I just saw a two-page spread advertising a Smalltalk compiler that took just this approach. It also made the same interactivity/productivity claims that Forth folks make. But, taking out an ad saying "Forth is great" is not at all what I am advocating -- that would probably be a waste of money. What I am advocating is increasing the visibility of work already going on in Forth. The most damaging (and incorrect) impressions of Forth from outsiders are: 1) No big successful projects have ever been done in Forth, therefore it is no good (the Jerry Pournelle viewpoint). 2) No-one uses Forth, and I don't want to risk not being able to get another programmer to maintain my code (a typical software manager's viewpoint). I propose that we can correct those impressions by publishing hard technical articles about Forth projects that have been a success. Phil Koopman koopman@greyhound.ece.cmu.edu Arpanet 2525A Wexford Run Rd. Wexford, PA 15090 Senior Scientist at Harris Semiconductor. I don't speak for them, and they don't speak for me.
sabbagh@acf5.NYU.EDU (sabbagh) (01/19/90)
In article <7636@pt.cs.cmu.edu> koopman@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Philip Koopman) writes: > 1) No big successful projects have ever been done in Forth, > therefore it is no good (the Jerry Pournelle viewpoint). > 2) No-one uses Forth, and I don't want to risk not being > able to get another programmer to maintain my code > (a typical software manager's viewpoint). > >I propose that we can correct those impressions by publishing >hard technical articles about Forth projects that have >been a success. Amen. Furthermore, we publish hard technical articles about Forth projects OTHER THAN REAL TIME CONTROL. I think there is a third point: 3) The only people using Forth are real time control people. (My viewpoint). Frankly, the group of people doing this kind of stuff is relatively cut off from the rest of the world. You have the individual consultants and small shops that produce the hardware and software, using Forth or C or assembler. The massive (read DoD) projects are being done in Ada. Forth is eminently applicable to graphics, AI, database and information management systems, word and text processing and a host of other features. Many of the technical articles on these applications are buried in journals that only Forthies read, so most people don't get the feeling that the are used for those kinds of applications. Also needed are articles about how Forth was successfully used by several people working on the same project at the same time, or, conversely, how Forth allowed a single programmer to develop a system that would have required much more effort in a different language. Finally, a tantalizing project proposal: develop an operating system to run on PCs and compatibles that runs MS-DOS programs and uses Forth as the shell/programming language. Better still, develop a Pick-like OS using Forth instead of RBASIC. Any takers? Hadil G. Sabbagh E-mail: sabbagh@csd27.nyu.edu Voice: (212) 998-3125 Snail: Courant Institute of Math. Sci. 251 Mercer St. New York,NY 10012 +===============================+ | | | ________ _______ | | \ | / ______ | | \ | / / | | \ L____/ / | | \__________/ | | | | | | Ceci n'est pas une pipe | | | +===============================+
philj@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Phil K Jansen) (01/20/90)
What we need is someone who will market a "Turbo" Forth. This Forth would
have a development environment like Turbo Pascal or Quick C, or Smalltalk.
Screens are ugly (even if they do encourage short definitions)! Browsing
through the source code (click on the word to see its definition) would be
so much cleaner and faster!
I've found in other languages that type checking is very useful to me to get
bugs out of my code. Now maybe it is less necessary with bottom-up definition
testing available in Forth, but it would still be useful to have a Forth 'lint'
program.
In order to market a "Turbo" Forth we need to have name recognition. I
suggest we call it "Trubo Forth". The company name should be "Broland
Internatioal", and the president should be Phil(lippe) K(ahn)oopman. At least
we'll get a lot of orders for software (though maybe not Forth).
I'll volunteer to be a vice president, but my last name doesn't start with K
so I can't be president. Sales would suffer.
Phil(lippe) K(ahn)elly Jansen
--
If you repeat things often enough, they become true.
Phil Jansen If you repeat things often enough, they become true.
philj@tekig5.pen.tek.com If you repeat things often enough, they become true.usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) (01/21/90)
From article <7636@pt.cs.cmu.edu>, by koopman@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Philip Koopman): > In article <6224@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, ir230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (john wavrik) writes: >> Phil Koopman says we have to market Forth. Could we really get away with >> an ad campaign that says: >> "Remember how much fun programming used to be? It still is >> with Forth" > > I propose that we can correct those impressions by publishing > hard technical articles about Forth projects that have > been a success. > How do you sell management on doing a project in Forth? That is the real battle. Good technical articles would go a long way towards helping. But, other than doing a project completely in Forth and then unveiling to management later that it was done in Forth, what are some good ways to go about changing the thinking of the decision makers? Anyone with experience in this area care to comment? j |%|John Lawitzke, Dale Computer Corp., R&D |%|UUCP: uunet!frith!dale1!jhl Work |%| uunet!frith!ipecac!jhl Home Inquiring minds just wondering. |%|Internet: jhl@frith.egr.msu.edu
koopman@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Philip Koopman) (01/22/90)
In article <6110@cps3xx.UUCP>, usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) writes: > How do you sell management on doing a project in Forth? That is the real > battle. Good technical articles would go a long way towards helping. > But, other than doing a project completely in Forth and then unveiling > to management later that it was done in Forth, what are some good ways > to go about changing the thinking of the decision makers? Here is one example that worked for me-- your milage may vary: I was working for the Trident Command and Control Systems Maintenance Activity in Newport RI (they do combat electronics for Trident submarines). They wanted to create an expert system for troubleshooting. They assigned me to to the preliminary design using an IBM PC. I spent a week on GC Lisp and gave up based on speed and memory requirements (they wanted it to run on a laptop). So, I told my boss that he had a choice: write in C and never be done, or prototype in Forth. I promised to rewrite all the software in his language of choice if he would let me prototype in Forth. He agreed, and sure enough 4 weeks later when the prototype was operational (including some nifty graphics) he said he didn't want it ported to any other language, and that I had convinced him Forth was the way to go. Suggested tactic: sell it as a prototyping tool and promise to rewrite in any other language at their desire (works best for high-risk exploration projects) Problem: two years after I left to go back to school, I heard they were desparate for a Forth programmer and were having trouble finding a good one. I think they probably got someone from the Boston Fig chapter to help them eventually. Phil Koopman koopman@greyhound.ece.cmu.edu Arpanet 2525A Wexford Run Rd. Wexford, PA 15090 Senior Scientist at Harris Semiconductor. I don't speak for them, and they don't speak for me.
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/24/90)
Date: 01-22-90 (20:52) Number: 79 (Echo) To: GARY SMITH Refer#: 76 From: JERRY SHIFRIN Read: NO Subj: MARKETING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE GS> From: usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) GS> Subject: Re: Marketing Forth (was Re: Thoughts on Forth) GS> How do you sell management on doing a project in Forth? That is the real GS> battle. Good technical articles would go a long way towards helping. GS> But, other than doing a project completely in Forth and then unveiling GS> to management later that it was done in Forth, what are some good ways GS> to go about changing the thinking of the decision makers? GS> Anyone with experience in this area care to comment? I have mixed feelings about this, but I was successful in selling my management on a Forth project a few years ago. My entire pitch was "productivity". I was able to show evidence of improved Forth productivity by taking an existing application with a lot of problems and recoding it in Forth. The recoding was done in a couple of weeks; it resolved all the outstanding problems and was lots smaller and easier to maintain than the original assembler program. It ran a bit slower than the original, but not significantly so. It was a dramatic demonstration of Forth's power in an ill-defined situation. Now, four or five years later, I'm still doing an offshoot of that project and still doing it in Forth. If I had it all to do over, I'd probably do it in C. Not because C is better in any way, but that the selection of Forth caused numerous problems in maintaining credibility for the project and for myself. The project was (and still is) successful in terms of function, schedule, and performance. However, with the vast bulk of other development being done in C, my project sticks out like a sore thumb. It's difficult to recruit and train people since they perceive that it's not a "mainstream" system here (it's not) and that their careers might suffer. It also suffers from its "oddball" reputation. Another difficulty is that my colleagues are developing a vast collection of tools, training facilities, CASE systems, and so on and we're left totally on our own. I think it's okay to be a "maverick" in a large organization, but in the long run, you either have to go along with the other folks or get them converted to your point of view. I don't suggest that this is typical of Forth systems, but only my one experience with a fairly large Forth application. --- * QDeLuxe 1.10 #214s ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/13/90)
Date: 02-12-90 (03:19) Number: 166 (Echo) To: GARY SMITH Refer#: 67 From: FRANK EARL Read: NO Subj: MARKETING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I dunno, maybe we oughta do something like a UNIX in Forth.... At least we'd get lots of recognition from the academic comunity and business types if we could get a UNIX type OS running written in Forth.. Argh! I can feel the heat even now.... Anybody got the fire extinguishers handy right now.... :-> Frank Earl ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/04/90)
Category 18, Topic 25
Message 9 Mon Jul 02, 1990
F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 23:31 CDT
Ed Borasky of UseNet writes:
Pascal, FORTRAN, FORTH, ASSEMBLER, ADA, MODULA are ALL better
languages than C. So how come so many more Bookstore Shelf Inches
are devoted to "C"??
The answer is that, taking Forth for the example, Forth claims to be
efficient yet blatantly belies that claim by taking up 5 characters in it's
name, while C is clearly much more efficient in that it requires only a
single character name.
(On the other hand, if we measured efficiency by the number of bookself
inches required by the language, well ....)
-- Frank
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