wmb@MITCH.ENG.SUN.COM (08/18/90)
> What I want to know is why commercial Forths are so bloody expensive. 1) Some of them are not "so bloody expensive". My "off the shelf" Forths range in price from $50 to $200. 2) The basic problem is that the market for Forth products is extremely small compared to the market for C compilers. With a C product, you can amortize your fixed costs over about 100 times as many units as with Forth. I would encourage anyone who wonders about the prices of Forth systems to spend 20 minutes working out a "rough cut" business plan based on sales of Forth systems. Suppose that you want to support yourself (assume you are providing half the income for a family of four). You will need an office, at least 2 phone lines, a copier and FAX machine, at least 2 or 3 computers (one of them will probably need to be "loaded" so you can do a reasonable job of answering your customer's questions), and at least one employee (to answer the phone, pay the bills, ship orders, keep records, etc). Figure out how much all this will cost, and divide that by the number of Forth systems you think you can sell. Keep in mind that, in trying to sell Forth systems, you will have quite a bit of competition at the low end from public domain systems, and at the high end from established Forth vendors. > Forth Inc sells polyForth for > $3000 last I heard. I have NEVER seen > a C compiler that expensive (I don't read the Cray audience trade rags > either though). Before C became extrememly popular, and thus entered the commodity market, $3000 was a typical price for a commercial-quality C compiler. Even now, not all C compilers cost $100. A friend of mine is looking for a real 32-bit C compiler for a 386 machine to run under DOS (i.e. PharLap DOS extender), and he has figured that is is going to set him back something like $800. A *typical* price for an excellent commercial Forth system is in the $400 range. > If a cheap Forth came out, I would buy it. Which machine? I have several inexpensive Forth systems, with source. Mitch
dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips) (08/21/90)
In <9008201424.AA05239@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, wmb@MITCH.ENG.SUN.COM writes: > > What I want to know is why commercial Forths are so bloody expensive. > > 1) Some of them are not "so bloody expensive". My "off the shelf" > Forths range in price from $50 to $200. Well, if you have been advertising I have not seen your ads. In most of the ads I have seen, and have gotten bingo card info on, Forth systems start near $150 and go up. My impression is that your prices are an exception. > 2) The basic problem is that the market for Forth products is extremely > small compared to the market for C compilers. With a C product, you > can amortize your fixed costs over about 100 times as many units > as with Forth. > . . . > Figure out how much all this [selling Forth systems] will cost, > and divide that by the number of Forth systems you think you can sell. I suspected an answer like this. Now Jax will surely tell us about how there is a $K billion market for Forth in Embedded Systems and Real-Time Control. Last I heard he and Peter were differing on that topic, but I don't recall what, if any, the result was. > Even now, not all C compilers cost $100. A friend of mine is looking for > a real 32-bit C compiler for a 386 machine to run under DOS (i.e. PharLap > DOS extender), and he has figured that is is going to set him back something > like $800. > Keep in mind that, in trying to sell Forth systems, you will have quite > a bit of competition at the low end from public domain systems, and at > the high end from established Forth vendors. I think this last point (which I moved down from further up in your original message) is important. If I were buying a Forth system to support or develope a commerical venture, I would probably buy a commercial Forth system just for the piece of mind, and I would probably have the cash to afford it. As a hobbyist I can't afford that, and I don't need or want it anyway. The question of economics, for me, is this: I have worked on C compilers. They are an order of magnitude more complex than a Forth system. Maybe even two orders of magnitude more complex. Given that fact, I would be willing to spend more money on a C compiler than I would be willing to spend on a Forth system simply because it would other-wise cost me more time to do it myself. So what advantage does a commercial system have over a shareware system? Support? I don't really need that. Source? Yes, I want that. Prebuilt libraries? Yes, I want that. Metacompilation? Yes, I want that. Documentation? Yes, I think I'd want that too. Do all those difference make up for the price differential between Shareware and Commercial systems? No, I don't think that the extra money is buying enough benefit to be worth it, to me. Maybe, if there were a lot of libraries, and a multi-tasking option, and documentation to go with it all. Maybe. > > If a cheap Forth came out, I would buy it. > > Which machine? I have several inexpensive Forth systems, with source. IBM-PC/AT Clone. Please follow-up to this portion via EMail. -Doug --- Preferred: ( dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us OR ...!{sei,pitt}!willett!dwp ) Daily: ...!{uunet,nfsun}!willett!dwp [last resort: dwp@vega.fac.cs.cmu.edu]
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (08/23/90)
In article <1565.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us> dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips) writes: > I suspected an answer like this. Now Jax will surely tell us about how > there is a $K billion market for Forth in Embedded Systems and Real-Time > Control. Last I heard he and Peter were differing on that topic, but I > don't recall what, if any, the result was. Real-time control folks have a relatively inelastic demand curve, but the hobbyist market is extremely elastic and there are decent freeware versions available. This basically means there is no significant market for hobbyist level commercial forth systems. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' +1 713 274 5180. 'U` peter@ferranti.com
dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips) (08/24/90)
In <UYD5VH7@xds13.ferranti.com>, peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > Real-time control folks have a relatively inelastic demand curve, but the > hobbyist market is extremely elastic and there are decent freeware versions > available. This basically means there is no significant market for hobbyist > level commercial forth systems. Which is probably why there are so many freeware/shareware/PD systems. Also I think because it is much easier to do a good FW/SW/PD Forth than it is to do a good FW/SW/PD C or Pascal system. Even if you leave out the expected libraries. I wonder if there are any insights or lessons to learn from the days when C was just starting out. No, I realize that Forth is not just starting out, but it is still in the pre-explosive stage. -Doug --- Preferred: ( dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us OR ...!{sei,pitt}!willett!dwp ) Daily: ...!{uunet,nfsun}!willett!dwp [last resort: dwp@vega.fac.cs.cmu.edu] --- Preferred: ( dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us OR ...!{sei,pitt}!willett!dwp ) Daily: ...!{uunet,nfsun}!willett!dwp [last resort: dwp@vega.fac.cs.cmu.edu]