ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/26/90)
Category 6, Topic 6 Message 53 Sat Feb 24, 1990 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 20:31 CST re: SH-BOOM There was a notice that Chuck was going to do a presentation on SH-BOOM at a Silicon Valley FIG meeting. Was anyone there? Please post full details. Also, the recent figgy mentioned that George (Shaw?) demo'd SH-BOOM at ACM in Dallas. Any details? All news of this will be appreciated. -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (09/12/90)
Date: 09-10-90 (00:51) Number: 719 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: DONALD BENSCH Read: HAS REPLIES Subj: FORTH & SBC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Does anyone know of a book that explaines how to set-up Forth on a single board computer (or any CPU based system) from scratch? Date: 09-10-90 (09:30) Number: 720 (Echo) To: DONALD BENSCH Refer#: NONE From: PETE KOZIAR Read: NO Subj: FORTH AND SBC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Which CPU? It makes a big difference if you're talking an 88000 RISC machine, an 8086 or an 8051! --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01 The Baltimore Sun ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/02/90)
Date: 10-30-90 (09:42) Number: 4120 (Echo) To: GARY SMITH Refer#: 4113 From: RAY DUNCAN Read: NO Subj: FORTH ENGINES: ALL TYPES Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE We have implemented Forth on the IBM RISC and on the Intel 80960. It was relatively straightforward once we thoroughly understood the RISC architecture, branch delay slots, and so on. NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/28/90)
Category 6, Topic 6
Message 72 Sun Dec 23, 1990
J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] at 20:20 MST
If I were in a room with you guys I would normaly keep my mouth shut.
However, this is not a room or real time, the implications of Ciber-Space are
gradually begining to dawn on me. There is a liberating aspect of this kind of
Psudosocial communication where I can't interupt or be interupeted in the
middle of a "speech". If i am ignored it need'nt embarass me. I have ample
time to think about what I want to say. So, last night reading thru the
foregoing topic I could see a dream I've had growing in other minds,
Beautifull !
The original effort of FIG produced software, All this time i've been
waiting for the other shoe to drop. Forth is a Assembly & Higher Language &..
an Operating System. When the Novix chip was announced I was excited at first.
But, "You just hook this up to your IBM Combatible PC" ...WHAT!!! ..Forget it.
If you don't understand my reaction, it may be impossible to explain, I
can afford to preserve the old Hacker ethic,?
The only area I claim exceptional credentials for this discussion is
Design Aesthetics. Although I enjoy expressing passionate opinions,
Computers & Elections are a Hobby. Nevertheless a broader market is important
to keep the cost down. Remember the advertisement in 'Popular Electronics'
that launched the MicroComputer revolution. I think Tinkerers and gaget freeks
are your Target Market, besides Scientists & Process Control Engineers who
need a clean dependable little machine to plug in to ..Whatever.
You all have been discusing the chips. How big is the board? What size
is the box? My dream is the shape of a hefty text book. It's less than half
full of hardware, plenty of room for expansion.
Look at a Atari Portfolio as an example of how much the state of the
marketable art can put in a small space for $300, I don't see any reason to
go for the Executive Acessory trade. Yet ive had my hands on one & it dont fit
in any of my pockets. Since I'de have to carry it in some kind of bag,. A book
bag. Less attractive to theves.
Speaking of the future of fig; This project is the rejuvenating tonic.
The "second wind" if fig members are the only distributiors.
Are the implications of this obvious?
This isn't a offtheshelf product. A Forth programmer installs a custom
application to deliver to the end users.
I see two versions. 1, is a Industrial strength diecast alluminum box.
You comunicate with it through a modem port thus eliminating arrogent
assumptions as to which OS 'everybodys using'
2, is a Military surplus looking Field computer. ( a lap top by anyother
name...) Also Diecast Aluminum. Why Diecast Aluminum you may ask ? I got
friends in the business.
As this project goes along I'll send some drawings to the Principals when
we approach concensus. later -jon- *S ----------------
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Category 6, Topic 6 Message 73 Mon Dec 24, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 02:48 EST Re: J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] > But, "You just hook this up to your IBM Combatible PC" ...WHAT!!! > ..Forget it. Typically, the PC is only needed for development, as a terminal. The end user environment could be anything you wanted it to be. > How big is the board? What size is the box? It depends on which one Jon. Silicon Composers makes one that fits inside the PC, and a couple that are stand alone (3"/5" or so I think). The stand alone have a bus for expansion. Harris made a Development Box that we more of an evaluation module than anything, but I think Silcon Composers also has a box that is about 12"x8"x4" with disk built in. > The "second wind" if fig members are the only distributiors. Interesting concept! However, someone once made a statement about Forth programmers (something about selling snowballs I think :) that might have a bearing on your idea. <grin> It's a great concept though! DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/29/90)
Category 6, Topic 6
Message 74 Sat Dec 29, 1990
J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] at 00:11 MST
- Dennis, among the several threads runing in this topic, I picked up on the
' FIG hardware project ' concept perhaps running off with it out of context.
Nevertheless, As Charley Brown says; " We don't win any ball games, but we
shure have some interesting discussions."
Perhaps since my only contact with FIG until lately has been it's
Publications. Ive romanticised the spirit of rugged individuals cooperating
for common good ( soaring trumpets please ). I can't believe there are any
smallminded commercial interests who would covet whatever small $ that may be
earned by such a project.
Just as the original Fig model was a common reference for learning Forth
and F83 is now ( although Macs & Amigas are excluded as far as I know ), there
oughtabe a common basic standard for a Forth Operating System.
Because I've been excited by microcomputers I've switched from, TRS-80
to SYM-1 to VIC-20,C-64 to K-Pro CPM to Amiga to Atari-ST each time I had to
find, buy, learn, new programs OSes' assemblers etc. I am getting older, less
flexible, more opinionated.
I decided to concentrate on Forth, yet it seems to be necessary to have
a more than casual grasp of the OS & Chip language for whatever platform I
happen to be on at the time, in order to really get Forth to produce " state
of the art results ".
I've noticed that HAMs are hanging on to their C-64s', perhaps, were
getting to a time when hobbyists get in to classic computers like classic
cars. There are Guys who program BIG machines for a living yet get more
enthusistic about their old CoCos'. Why?
So my questions " how big is the box ? " is also, What is the essential
common Forth OS ? I am trying to appeal to the "small is beautiful faction of
FIG", to think about producing a FIG model in hardware, Forth all the way
down!! In order not to step on vendors toes, we should let them participate
by donating a run of surplus Forth chips that didn't quite become a commercial
product, or are already obsolete.
The reason that FIG is loosing membership may have nothing to do with
Forth at all, but with the extranious distractions such as I have faced
comming back to Forth with a diffrent machine, i.e.; For any general
microcomputer application Iv'e cared to get in to my Atari ST is less annoying
than any other in its' price range, when I bought it. Yet when I try Forth
again I discover all sorts of complexity that, although I knew it was there it
never was a problem. The OS is superficially like MS-DOS It's written in C on
a 68000 on top of all that is GEM which looks like a Mac but isn't. I have
found a PD Forth that is as close to the F83 as possible yet, If I have a
problem with I/O, only the few who have the same setup can help. In this case
it may be only the guy that wrote the Forth i'm using, and that sort of
defeats the 'no visible support' doctrine. Anyway I've elaborated the
particulars as an example of all the nonForth stuff I should also learn to
build a program in Forth that's more than a exercise. Is this really
necessary!!!? Eventually, I want to go to Wallmart and buy a Generalpurpose
FORTH
microcomputer that's better than a AtariST for < 1 K $ . - jon -
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Category 6, Topic 6 Message 75 Sat Dec 29, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 13:04 EST Re: J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] > among the several threads runing in this topic, I picked up on the > ' FIG hardware project ' concept perhaps running off with it out > of context. Yes, I should probably extract it into its own topic, but not this weekend :( I'm right in the middle of moving ): > ( soaring trumpets please ) Sorry, I lost mine in one of my prior moves :) > rugged individuals cooperating for common good "Individualist" is the term. This industry has become ver fragmented since the original FIG code was written. In those days, one vision was enough to enthuse some very hard work. Now, there are a lot more visions of what Forth should be. The Forth Engines (trying my best to stay on topic :) are just another instance of this vision. We hope that ANS Forth is going to help to bring us back together, but at this point it is merely reminding us how different each of our visions are. Your question about "a common basic standard for a Forth Operating System" falls into these multiple visions. Is Forth an OS, or does it just run under them? IMHO, ANS Forth seems to be tending toward the latter, but I can deal with it in either environment. You want us to agree on just one interface scheme? <grin> Good Luck! > Eventually, I want to go to Wallmart and buy a Generalpurpose > FORTH microcomputer that's better than a AtariST for < 1 K $ . Find yourself a Jupiter Ace. It has been done, but since Forth is such a different mind-set from the "traditional" systems (Unix, MS- DOS, OS/2, etc.) the market is extremely small. Thus, the payback from the investment into producing such a machine is too long to attract enough capital. > donating a run of surplus Forth chips that didn't quite become a > commercial product, or are already obsolete. I'm not sure I follow how this will help the Forth vendors, since none of them produce Forth chips, but I would also be very hesitant to base a product on "obsolete" hardware. I've suffered the consequences of that too many times. When I needed to ship something I could no longer support, the cost in customer relations and reverse engineering becomes greater than the original investment. No thank you. But you are most certainly welcome to give it a shot. :) DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/31/90)
Category 6, Topic 6
Message 76 Sun Dec 30, 1990
J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] at 23:24 MST
Dennis; I appreciate the comments. Using the method of sucessive
approximations, I don't see how starting rediculously wide of the mark
especially when I'm very unclear on the subject can do anything except make
shure of not missing much. ?
D> Yes, I should probably extract it into its own topic, but not this weekend
:( I'm right in the middle of moving ):
I have been calling it " Dream Machine " in house. I hope you have a smooth
move. <;{> I hope that title will imply that for my purposes anyway,
Practicality is not the virtue in most request.
D> You want us to agree on just one interface scheme? <grin> Good Luck!
As I understand it L&P F83 was sort of accepted as a ? ( is defacto standard
the right word ? ) I am actually hopeing someone with better ideas than mine
would straighten my thinking out on how it may be done. I can see a broad
market for a small compact internaly integrated system. There isn't a computer
on the market that really tempts me at this time.
D> Find yourself a Jupiter Ace.
Is that an insult ? <;'
D>I'm not sure I follow how this will help the Forth vendors,
Woops! I ment Forth chip vendors
D> I would also be very hesitant to base a product on "obsolete" hardware.
HoHoHo! You just never had a big enuf promotional buget.
[ 145 lines of large megolithic corporation, and their running dogs,
bashing deleted ]
I reiterate, the disagreements in the Forth community about Forth are
healthy. The devision of chip & platform cultures are unfortunate. Do you know
where all the Mac Guys are ?
A discussion here about what is, a necessary and sufficent total Forth
computer, would be perhaps usefull to those who are really working on it but
can't talk about it.
Have you heard about the Los Alamos Mafia?
They make you an offer they can't talk about.
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Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpcwpjr@cbnewse.att.com (clyde.w.jr.phillips) (01/03/91)
I've kept what sparked my responce and deleted... > > I have been calling it " Dream Machine " in house. I hope you have a smooth > Practicality is not the virtue in most request. > > the right word ? ) I am actually hopeing someone with better ideas than mine > would straighten my thinking out on how it may be done. I can see a broad > market for a small compact internaly integrated system. There isn't a computer > on the market that really tempts me at this time. > > D> Find yourself a Jupiter Ace. > > Is that an insult ? <;' Here I'd say one man's dream machine... But I think you must define for yourself and us what dream you're dreaming. From your "compact, internally integrated" description the Jupiter comes close... 8^) So does the Federal Express handheld and one other "commercial" handheld that runs a native FORTH ( Casio/??/??? ). My thoughts are that My Z-80 ROM FORTH SBC is a dream machine for slower controls and data logging. But I have other dream machines. A muilti-FORTH engine running a NEXTSTEP workstation, for one. My reasoning is that with Display Postscript being based on FORTH a FORTH engine auta do just fine. But further still I'd like to see a "written-in-FORTH" clone of the popular OS's ( UNIX/MS-DOG/MACH/etc ) where from the prompt you could use standard dir/ls/cat/etc commands but all of the flag optional command line arguments would be available as WORDS! > > > D> I would also be very hesitant to base a product on "obsolete" hardware. > > HoHoHo! You just never had a big enuf promotional buget. > [ 145 lines of large megolithic corporation, and their running dogs, > bashing deleted ] > This sound suspiciously like the IBM PC! 'n the JR! Can you also see INTEL? > healthy. The devision of chip & platform cultures are unfortunate. Do you know > where all the Mac Guys are ? I agree but I just feel that because of a predominance of embedded systems work on one hand and use as a "high Lvel application language" on the other hand that it is hard to not choose sides. I do think my FORTH powered workstation concept would unify these camps. And it might even be used by the workstation people if it provided all they expect. Cheers! Clyde
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/03/91)
Category 6, Topic 6
Message 77 Wed Jan 02, 1991
J.SANFORD1 [- jon -] at 21:29 MST
I have just finshed reading thru the whole Cat.6 Top.15 Forth Engines /
Harris, ( It was interesting to see my strange obcession recomended by Frank
Sergeant in FD ). This could be the background material for a novel called
"Sexy New Machine does The Limbo".
As an encourageing note, this puts me in mind of the story of Nikola
Tesla, who was prevented by extrainious events from having axcess to a
workshop, continued to visualize the construction and operation of the A.C.
motor for 5 years. When he eventually was able to implement his ideas, it was
at a astonishingly mature stage of development.
To condense the episode in an increadibly arrogent gloss; in order for a
Totaly Forth Intigrated chip to be acceptible to the Forth community, (PRICE),
it must have features which make it indespensible to some other market
segments as well.
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