ir230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (john wavrik) (03/29/91)
Is Floating Point Controversial? Every time someone tries to say something good about Forth floating point arithmetic is brought up. It's still something of a mystery why this is so -- and why it's being made to sound like the subject of controversy. I've talked to a lot of people in the Forth community. It is true that many of them say that they, personally, rarely use floating point. But most do not have some deep seated opposition -- just that they don't do the kind of work that demands it. Most people point out, as for example recently in this newsgroup, that floating point packages have been readily available for Forth for a long time. There really doesn't seem to be anyone who opposes having floating point available as an optional package for those who want it. Lots of people think it would even be a good idea to agree that F+ will be the name given to addition, etc. Some are under the impression that the Forth Vendors Group made a floating point standard a while ago. Making a floating point package available to add on to Forth really doesn't compromise the language -- and, as far as I can tell, everyone seems to agree. I also have not found anyone who is opposed to interesting new programmers in Forth (which is another thing that gets thrown into the pot). The only real issue is whether the character of Forth should be altered. I wonder if the red herring of floating point is being brought up to camouflage other alterations being made to Forth in the name of "marketablity". Not every characteristic of conventional languages is desirable. In many ways what Forth has to offer the world is some of the ways it differs from conventional languages. It would inspire a bit more confidence if the people so articulate about what they want changed could also articulate their understanding of qualities that should be preserved. The situation with Forth is a bit like catching your 13 year old daughter heading out the door with too much makeup, a skirt 6" too short and a blouse unbuttoned 5" too low. You tell her "Honey, you don't have to do that. There are guys in this world who will love you for who you really are -- they just haven't met you yet. And the boys you'll attract that way, you don't want." The question that faces the Forth community right now is: do you really want your language picking up C programmers on street corners! John J Wavrik jjwavrik@ucsd.edu Dept of Math C-012 Univ of Calif - San Diego La Jolla, CA 92093
eaker@sunbelt.crd.ge.com (Charles E Eaker) (03/30/91)
> > Is Floating Point Controversial? > The only language whose proponents argue over whether floating point is necessary or desirable is Forth. Everyone I know outside of the Forth community, when informed of this, just snicker and shake their heads. A tool's usefulness diminishes in proportion to the extent I have to adjust and maintain the tool. A good tool does not take my attention away from the problem I am using it to solve. > I wonder if the red herring of >floating point is being brought up to camouflage other alterations >being made to Forth in the name of "marketablity". > I wonder if the "floating point, et al., is no big deal" view is a camouflage for a supremicist movement to keep the riff-raff out of the Forth community. If so, it certainly has been successful. > Not every characteristic of conventional languages is desirable. In >many ways what Forth has to offer the world is some of the ways it >differs from conventional languages. It would inspire a bit more >confidence if the people so articulate about what they want changed >could also articulate their understanding of qualities that should be >preserved. What should be preserved is the Forth *WAY* of expressing things, not the kinds of things that can be expressed in convenient, standard ways. > > The situation with Forth is a bit like catching your 13 year old >daughter heading out the door with too much makeup, a skirt 6" too >short and a blouse unbuttoned 5" too low. You tell her > > "Honey, you don't have to do that. There are guys in this > world who will love you for who you really are -- they > just haven't met you yet. And the boys you'll attract that > way, you don't want." > >The question that faces the Forth community right now is: do you >really want your language picking up C programmers on street corners! I don't care how my daughters dress (it wouldn't do any good anyway). I do care that they are educated, cultured, and articulate; that they are capable of having conversations with people of all sorts on topics of all sorts, and that the people they come in contact with are better for it, and are delighted that they met and spent time with them. I do not want my daughters to have limited vocabularies. I do not want them to be limited in the kinds of things they can discuss and the ways they can interact with people. I certainly do not want them to be unable to discuss a topic one day, be extraordinarily conversant in it the next, then speak with an entirely different dialect the next. My daughter's are certainly not better off when people avoid and ignore them because they are incapable of carrying on a conversation with them due to their being completely ignorant of what the other person is talking about. My daughters are not better off by refusing to interact with people who are unable to speak to them in their limited vocabulary on their preferred subjects. That keeps them from being exposed to other people who, with few exceptions, can broaden my daughters' ranges of experiences and understandings of the world. It is not to Forth's advantage to continue to present to the world the 37 faces of Eve. Nor is to Forth's advantage to isolate itself from the rest of the world for fear of contamination. -- Chuck Eaker / P.O. Box 8, K-1 3C12 / Schenectady, NY 12301 USA eaker@crd.ge.com eaker@crdgw1.UUCP (518) 387-5964
dcp@world.std.com (David C. Petty) (04/07/91)
In article <17856@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, ir230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (john wavrik) writes: `The question that faces the Forth community right now is: do you `really want your language picking up C programmers on street corners! Electrical Engineering is a relatively new profession, but it bears many similarities to the world's oldest profession. It is predominated by a single sex (albeit a ifferent oane); most of the income goes to the management; sucess is measured by how soon one gets out of the profession; and beyond a certain point, age and experience are negatives. -- Jon Lewis, Kaman Sciences Corporation -- David C. Petty | dcp@world.std.com | ...!{uunet,bu.edu}!world!dcp /\ POBox Two | CIS: 73607,1646 | BIX, Delphi, MCIMail: dcp / \ Cambridge, MA | `It must've been some-other-body, / \ 02140-0001 USA | uh uh babe it wasn't me...' - CB /______\