ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/10/90)
Date: 01-09-90 (00:46) Number: 1641 (Echo) To: F.SERGEANT [FRANK] Refer#: 1620 From: SYSOP (ECFB/SHIFRIN) Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE F[> I'll accept Forth Dimensions in whatever condition you send it to me. F[>The slick covers are wasted on me (and I rather liked the table of F[>contents on the outside!). While I totally disagree with your somewhat bizarre theory of creeping socialism as it relates to student discounts (what HAVE you been smoking, Frank?), I'm with you 100% on Forth Dimensions glossy covers. It was attractive at first -- looked a lot more like a real journal -- but it's not at all helpful, boring since it never changes, and probably a waste of money. --- * QDeLuxe 1.10 #214s ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/15/90)
Date: 01-13-90 (10:48) Number: 2776 To: SYSOP (ECFB/SHIFRIN) Refer#: NONE From: TODD NATKIN Read: 01-13-90 (22:47) Subj: FIG Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Once again just curious -- is there public information regarding the number (estimated, of course) of FORTH users around the country. How about the number of paid F.I.G. members? ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/15/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 23 Sun Jan 14, 1990
D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 13:50 EST
> about the number of paid F.I.G. members?
We have been holding at somewhere over 2000 members since we raised the rates
to $30/year.
DaR
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/17/90)
Date: 01-15-90 (10:19) Number: 2781 (Echo) To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 2779 From: JERRY SHIFRIN Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE DR>We have been holding at somewhere over 2000 members since we raised the rates DR>to $30/year. You want to take a guess at the percentage of Forth programmers who are members of FIG? One in a hundred? --- * QDeLuxe 1.10 #214s ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/18/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 25 Tue Jan 16, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 23:35 EST > You want to take a guess at the percentage of Forth programmers > who are members of FIG? One in a hundred? That would make over 200,000 Forth programmers. I'm not sure I could justify that high of a figure, but I don't know of any hard facts to uphold any number. If we are guessing, I'd go with only about half that number or even less. Still, I would be comfortable with saying the FIG members account for less that 5% of the Forth communitee. That would also imply that the best we have ever done is to have about 10% of them pay the membership fees. Therefore, I am less worried about the 5% that we lost due to rising costs than I am about how to attract the other 90% to give us a chance. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (01/20/90)
In article <281.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP> ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) writes: >D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 23:35 EST > > You want to take a guess at the percentage of Forth programmers > > who are members of FIG? One in a hundred? [...] >Still, I would be comfortable with >saying the FIG members account for less that 5% of the Forth communitee. That >would also imply that the best we have ever done is to have about 10% of them >pay the membership fees. Therefore, I am less worried about the 5% that we >lost due to rising costs than I am about how to attract the other 90% to give >us a chance. Why should it be that important that Forth users are FIG members, as far as Forth is concerned? What percentage of C users are in a C users group? I'd guess far less than 1%, probably less than .1%, yet look how successful it is. You only need a users group if you have to band together for support, and I feel Forth has matured beyond that point. Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.labs.tek.com Standard Disclaimers Apply
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Date: 01-17-90 (09:13) Number: 2788 (Echo) To: JERRY SHIFRIN Refer#: 2781 From: GORDON GANDERTON Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE JS>You want to take a guess at the percentage of Forth programmers JS>who are members of FIG? One in a hundred? Yes Jerry, I am one of those who have joined FIG just out of loyalty to the Forth community. I receive the magazine, glance through it, find very little for us novices, then put it away. If I had a choice, I would sooner pay my dues to our local BC Forth group, where I learn a lot and get lots of help. I would prefer to see the magazine published on cheap paper with ten times as many pages, users columns, novice columns, questions and answers columns, gripe columns, individual guru's columns, news in the Forth community columns, etc. Come to think of it, I should be suggesting this to my sysop, Jack Brown. Rgds. --- ~ EZ-Reader 1.20 ~ .EXE -ex NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Date: 01-18-90 (08:58) Number: 2790 (Echo) To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 2787 From: JERRY SHIFRIN Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > You want to take a guess at the percentage of Forth programmers > who are members of FIG? One in a hundred? DR>That would make over 200,000 Forth programmers. I'm not sure I could DR>justify that high of a figure, but I don't know of any hard facts to DR>uphold any number. If we are guessing, I'd go with only about half that Sounds reasonable to me. I guess the real answer depends on what we mean by a Forth programmer -- someone who does full-time Forth programming; someone who dabbles in Forth; someone who knows Forth; or someone who's bought a copy of STARTING FORTH? As for the latter, I believe Elizabeth has stated that 100,000 copies have been sold. I guess that should be the upper bound. --- * QDeLuxe 1.10 #214s ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Date: 01-17-90 (11:44) Number: 103 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: (N/A) Subj: FREE MEMBERSHIP POLICY? Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I'm sure at one time, a couple of years ago, FIg had a policy of offering a free membership to people who had authored articles dealing with Forth. I don't recall the details, though. Questions: 1) is the policy still in effect? 2) What did an article have to include to qualify? This isn't an academic query; an article of mine about a program I wrote & put into the public domain using HS/Forth was just published in OCLC Micro. I'm wondering if it qualifies for the free membership renewal. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 29 Sat Jan 20, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 00:21 EST >As for the latter, I believe Elizabeth has stated that 100,000 >copies have been sold. I guess that should be the upper bound. I guess that is where I had heard that number and I do find it reasonable. In my opinion, FIG should try to address the needs of anyone who has the least bit of interest in Forth. The problem with this is that we end up diluting everything to the point that we can not satisfy anyone. I believe that is state that we are in now with our appeal at a very low level. The question that we are wrestling with now is what we can do about it. We've considered splitting 4D into the professional and novice sides, but the costs appear to be prohibative. However, what I'm hearing here is that expensive production techniques are not buying us much so maybe we can spin off one of the sides with much less production overhead. This is an idea, and I appreciate all the input you all have given. Fixing the problems is going to take time, so I hope you all will be patient a little longer with us. We honestly are trying to make this work and your feedback is essential. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 30 Sat Jan 20, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 00:22 EST >I'm sure at one time, a couple of years ago, FIg had a policy of >offering a free membership to people who had authored articles >dealing with Forth. I don't recall the details, though. >Questions: 1) is the policy still in effect? 2) What did an >article have to include to qualify? I'm sorry to say Steve that policy is no longer in effect. I'm not sure exactly why it was terminated (it was just before my time), but I could find out if it is important. We have had a few mis-steps in the past and the inconsistency is certainly not helping matters any. I appologize for the confusion and give you my assurance that we are not trying to confuse you. However, to correct the problems we must make changes and loose consistency. We hope to serve your needs better in the long run. Sorry! DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/21/90)
Date: 01-19-90 (08:16) Number: 2798
To: JERRY SHIFRIN Refer#: 2790
From: RAY DUNCAN Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
>100,000 copies (of Starting Forth) have been sold
Hmmm, these numbers seem inflated; the last time I heard it was
something more on the order of 50,000 copies.
NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/21/90)
Category 18, Topic 11 Message 4 Sat Jan 20, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 16:40 EST Reply to Tom Almy, who writes: > Why should it be that important that Forth users are FIG members, > as far as Forth is concerned? What percentage of C users are in > a C users group? I'd guess far less than 1%, probably less than > .1%, yet look how successful it is. > You only need a users group if you have to band together for > support, and I feel Forth has matured beyond that point. Tom, it is not important to Forth that the users of the language belong to FIG, the language has matured enough to be self sustaining. However, it is important to have some members if FIG is going to survive. For a C users group, 1% or even .1% is a significant number of people, but for Forth those same percentages represent too few people to make FIG a viable organization. Yes, Forth has matured beyound the point of needing FIG, yet I am convinced that there is a role that FIG can still play in the evolution of the language. I have read some good suggestions from all of you, and it is my, and the other members of the Board of Directors, jobs to see how we can accomplish them. We are due to have our annual planning meeting soon and I will bring each of these suggestions up for discussion. I can not say that we will follow any of them, but I can say that I will try. Thanks for your input. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/22/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 32 Sun Jan 21, 1990
JDHALL [John] at 14:48 PST
It has been FIG's Policy since October, 1984 and STILL IS!!!
Author recognition of Forth articles outside of Forth Dimensions has been an
important policy in FIG's goal of promoting Forth. It is still FIG's Policy.
Not too many people have taken advantage of this policy and I think Dennis
has just forgotten. It was reannounced in FD, Vol 8, #5, page 28.
For those of you that do not have that issue or were unfamiliar with the
policy, let me reintroduce this policy:
Author Recoginition Program
To recognize and reward authors for Forth-related articles, the Forth
Interest Group adopted the following Author Recognition Program, effective
October 1, 1984.
Articles:
The author of any Forth-related article published in a periodical or in the
proceedings of a non-Forth conference is awarded one year's membership in the
Forth Interest Group, subject to these conditions:
a. The membership awarded is for the membership year following the one
during which the article was published.
b. Only one membership per person is awarded in any year, regardless of
the number of articles the person published in that year.
c. The articles length must be one page or more in the magazine in which
it was published.
d. The author must submit the printed article (photocopies are accepted)
to the Forth Interest Group, including identification of the magazine and
issue in which it appeared, within sixty days of publication. In return, the
author will be sent a coupon good for the following year's membership.
e. If the original article was published in a language other than English,
the article must be accomplished by an English translation.
f. Articles are eligible under this program only if they were first
published after October 1, 1984.
Letters to the Editor:
Letters to the editor are, in effect, "mini-articles," and so deserve
recognition. The author of any Forth-related letter to an editor published
in any magazine except Forth Dimensions, is awarded a $10 credit toward FIG
membership fees, subject to these conditions:
a. The credit applies only to membership fees for the membership year
following the one in which the letter was published.
b. The maximum award in any year to any person will not exceed the full
cost of the membership fee for the following year.
c. The author must submit to the Forth Interest Group a photocopy of the
printed letter, including identification of the magazine and issue in which
it appeared, within sixty days of publication. The author will be sent a
coupon worth $10 toward the following year's membership.
d. If the original letter was published in a language other than English,
the article must be accomplished by an English translation.
e. Letters are eliginle under this program only if they were first
published after October 1, 1984.
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/22/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 33 Sun Jan 21, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 21:36 EST Gee, I could have sworn that I had heard that policy dropped, but I'm sure glad it is still in existance. Thank you John for coming to my rescue and correcting my mistake. Still if the last time we mentioned it was 1987, perhaps it is time to remind people that the policy still exists. Perhaps that is why not too many people have take advantage of it. Anyway, I'm preaching to myself so I'll see if I can get something done about it. Thanks John. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
dwp@willett.UUCP (Doug Philips) (01/23/90)
Date: 01-21-90 (11:13) Number: 2806 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 2802
From: JERRY SHIFRIN Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
DR>that we are wrestling with now is what we can do about it. We've
considered
DR>splitting 4D into the professional and novice sides, but the costs appear
to
DR>be prohibative. However, what I'm hearing here is that expensive
production
DR>techniques are not buying us much so maybe we can spin off one of the
sides
DR>with much less production overhead.
The C Newsletter I used to receive was printed on cheap newspaper
and seemed mainly concerned with the distribution of public
domain software and reviews of free and commercial software. This
would be a useful service, I think.
---
* QDeLuxe 1.10 #214s
---
Preferred: willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu OR ...!sei!willett!dwp
Daily: ...!{uunet,nfsun}!willett!dwp [in a pinch: dwp@vega.fac.cs.cmu.edu]RAYBRO%UTRC@UTRCGW.UTC.COM ("William R Brohinsky", ay) (01/23/90)
With respect to E. Rather's 100K copies of Starting Forth: I have three copies. I bought the first edition when it was quite young. I recieved a second copy at work when I instigated the purchase of MVP forth for Apple ][. I got the second edition when it was fairly new, about the same time that I got Thinking FOrth. I hope the number of forth users/programmers will be estimated more on the basis of systems sold (with a fudge factor for PD systems distributed freely and home-brew systems as well...) and not on the number of copies of SF or even TF (which at least gives an idea of how many forth programmers are wanting to think...maybe!) How about the other books on forth? Kelly/Spies (sp?), Mastering forth, any number of other, lesser books. And how many of those books are 1) owned along with others by the same person 2) bought, perused, and consigned to book hell (i.e., never read nor thought of again) 3) purchased by libraries (I believe the UTC system has one or two copies of Starting Forth, which have been read or looked at by no-one knows how many engineers, scientists, and technicians. These factors make the numbers swing both ways. Good luck. For a major application written in forth (which still has at least some of a forth environment left to it) try Asyst! This is mostly for data acquisition and allows some nifty processing of that data. It is used enough at the research center, here, that we had Asyst come in and teach a 3-day course on it. -raybro
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/07/90)
Date: 02-03-90 (17:38) Number: 2860 (Echo) To: JERRY SHIFRIN Refer#: 2806 From: DON MADSON Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Distributing Forth Dimensions on newsprint is one of the things I suggested when the subject was discussed way back when the ECFB first started. What's on the paper is much more important than the paper itself. Sometimes less editing is better too. --- ~ EZ-Reader 1.14 ~ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<>><><> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/16/90)
Date: 03-14-90 (17:13) Number: 122 (Echo) To: JACK WOEHR Refer#: NONE From: MIKE NEMETH Read: NO Subj: Fig fees Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE This message is for all FIG board members and I'm addressing it to jax in his figchaphers capacity. A few weeks ago I got the renew notice for FIG. I was happy to see that a place was provided for donations. However, since my employer pays the membership fee I would have to go to some trouble to donate out of my own pocket ( forget Them making a donation. Now if there would have been a corporate membership rate of $50.00 I would have gladly checked that. The difference between a normal and corp. membership ? $20, that is all. FIG just blew a chance for a $20 "donation" from my employers. Also I would like to put forth (ha ha) an idea to all forthers out there that would like to suport FIG. If your puting code and programs out here on the FORTHNET and really aren't interest in a "shareware fee" for your -self . How about requesting a donation to FIG? ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/17/90)
Date: 03-15-90 (06:38) Number: 124 (Echo) To: MIKE NEMETH Refer#: NONE From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO Subj: FIG FEES, BIG FEES! Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE >This message is for all FIG board members and I'm addressing it to >jax in his figchaphers capacity. Dat's-a me! >A few weeks ago I got the renew notice for FIG. I was happy to see >that a place was provided for donations. However, since my employer pay >the membership fee I would have to go to some trouble to donate out of >my own pocket ( forget Them making a donation. Now if there would have >been a corporate membership rate of $50.00 I would have gladly checked >that. For that matter, what about a student rate? What about memberships starting when you pay, not every spring? (The annual/spring membership scheme leads to unrealistic financial planning, i.e."the memberships are slow coming in this year, but just wait, they'll all renew eventually" at a time when FIG is losing membership) >The difference between a normal and corp. membership ? $20, that >is all. FIG just blew a chance for a $20 "donation" from my employers. If we *all* had a dime for every chance for progress that FIG has missed. You've heard my suggestion, Mike: It's time to hold the 1986 FIG Board Election! FIG has the same problem the Eastern Bloc countries had until recently: a self-electing board of directors. >Also I would like to put forth (ha ha) an idea to all forthers out ther >that would like to suport FIG. If your puting code and programs out her >on the FORTHNET and really aren't interest in a "shareware fee" for you >-self . How about requesting a donation to FIG? > Not a bad idea! Most (All?) of my personal uploads bear the legend: "Permission granted for free distribution by FIG Members Only! Pay Yer Dues, Cheapskate!" =jax= NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! Date: 03-15-90 (06:45) Number: 125 (Echo) To: MIKE NEMETH Refer#: NONE From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO Subj: FA ANS MEETING Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE >Jax, while I thinking of it, are you planning to go to the Florida >Ans Forth meeting? Hope to see you there. Bye Mike. You bet your BIOS! Just sent off my letter to Liz requesting voting member status ... =jax= NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/18/90)
Date: 03-16-90 (19:30) Number: 126 (Echo) To: JACK WOEHR Refer#: 124 From: MIKE NEMETH Read: NO Subj: FIG FEES, BIG FEES! Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Point about corporate fees was: it would have brought in extra mony, while a student fee would be nice it might cost fig too much. OK, I want to throw out another Idea: Maybe the time has come for FIG to seek an affilliation with another group ( IEEE? maybe). ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/21/90)
Date: 03-19-90 (08:21) Number: 127 (Echo) To: MIKE NEMETH Refer#: NONE From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO Subj: FIG FEES, BIG FEES! Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE >Point about corporate fees was: it would have brought in extra mony, >while a student fee would be nice it might cost fig too much. Everything costs too much for an organization that has no members. > OK, I want >to thow out another Idea: Maybe the time has come for FIG to seek >an affilliation with another group ( IEEE? maybe). Possibly with the Chinese Communist Party, since they are the only other body on earth as resistant to elections. :-) =jax= NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (04/09/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 53 Sun Apr 08, 1990
F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 12:19 CDT
Dennis, Jax, Wil, and all:
I read with interest Della Street's minutes of last Sunday's RTC. Of
course, you have my best wishes in sorting out FIG. I wanted to write a few
thoughts that it inspired.
I was reminded of a Saturday Night Live where William Shatner speaks at a
Trekkie convention and says (more or less), "C'mon! It was just a TV show!
There was no Starship Enterprise, Klingons, phasers, Spock, etc., just actors
and cameras and makeup."
So, C'mon, Forth is just a computer language and FIG is just a group of
people who LIKE it. The world will keep spinning and politicians will keep
stealing whether FIG or Forth grow or decline. So what! I don't see we
"should" (certainly I don't) have a sacred mission to save the world by
promoting Forth or FIG. On the other hand, I am happy for Forth & FIG to
grow.
FIG is my Forth group of choice. I want it to continue, but not to "grow
at any cost." I hope it will maintain its hobbiest orientation. I consider
the publication of FD to be its most important function (with the maintenance
of its bookstore second and GEnie 3rd). So, publish what you can afford to.
Please don't even consider dropping it or selling it under any circumstances.
I enjoy hearing Jax opinions, including his colorful use of language
describing FIG's finances. Still, I sympathize with Dennis's wish to keep
the language "out of the gutter." If we were voting, I would vote for Jax
free use of the "f" word (as well as Dennis's free use of the "s" word.)
And, I would vote against the removal of Jax message. Thankfully, it is not
my responsibility to deal with such matters. Since it is Dennis's, as SysOp,
I respect his decision.
I think, without having any inside knowledge, that Jax suggestions are too
drastic. No need for the board to resign. But, I think his demand for
elections as required by the by-laws is proper. I hope someone is willing to
run. I think we should be thankful that the board members are willing to
serve. Stay solvent, keep on keeping on, float like a cork on the tide (in &
out & in & out) of Forth's popularity, rather than breaking apart like an
arrogant ("it's up to us to convert the entire world to Forth") Titanic.
As to the matter of Wil not running next time for the board, I hope he will
change his mind. I would rather have his experience and wisdom and
perspective than to have him replaced by someone who's only qualification is
that he "believes" wholeheartedly in Forth's superiority.
(Speaking of Della Street, I'm reading a new (1989) Perry Mason book by
Thomas Chastain. Gertie is still the receptionist. She must really be
getting on in years. And what a coup for Chastain because of the public
exposure!)
I want to make it clear that I do not think the board members' views are
far from my own. I mean this note as an indication of my support rather than
as a call for reform. And, I am in favor of reaching out for more members
and of fomenting interest in Forth. But, as an ongoing, gentle campaign,
rather than as a life or death emergency.
-- Frank
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (04/13/90)
Date: 04-11-90 (18:59) Number: 149 (Echo) To: GARY SMITH Refer#: NONE From: MIKE NEMETH Read: 04-11-90 (23:31) Subj: Speaker(s) for GEnie rtc Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I'd like to see one RTC with ALL! the FIG board members participating. Subject: Policies past present and Future. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (04/13/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 56 Thu Apr 12, 1990 GARY-S at 06:30 EDT To: MIKE NEMETH Subj: Speaker(s) for GEnie rtc That's an excellent suggestion. I doubt seriously I can get the board members to appear enmass, but I agree it would sure be noteworthy. If even some or most agreed would you be among the attendees, Mike ? RTC's also take attendees to be a success, and I have not suffered from an over-abundance of people to ask questions of our guests. Fortunately, most guests haven't felt insulted by this seeming lack of interest... Gary ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (05/05/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 71 Fri May 04, 1990
GARY-S at 06:52 EDT
An idea popped out of the 3 May 1990 FIGGY BAR and I am kicking myself *HARD*
for not forwarding this suggestion before.
It was suggested that Forth vendors insert a FIG brochure
with their product. I did this VERY THING when HAWG WILD was
still a part of my life abd was informed by FIG office staff
it had resulted in inquiries and memberships. If a litle
operation like mine could generate FIG memberships just think
what a few 'real' vendors could do !!!!
Jax (Vesta) was asked if Vesta did this. He replied that FIG
had never asked, but SigForth ACM had; and Vesta did include
a SigForth flier.
Sooooo - I'm brushing the dust off an old idea (and some
stupid off my brain) and recommending FIG approach Forth
vendors, and ask if they would be so kind as to include a
FIG flier (get real here, no one will agree to more than a
one page blurb/application), and if the vendor is agreeable
for FIG to supply as many of said fliers as the vendor can/will
distribute.
Gary
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (05/06/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 72 Sat May 05, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 00:08 EDT An excellent idea Gary. Now we need to come up with a brochure :-). DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (05/06/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 73 Sat May 05, 1990
GARY-S (Forwarded)
I always liked the red and black one I understand Linda Kahn designed.
This is the slick one with Forth... Forth... Forth... on the cover
and comparisons with ASM and HLL's in a annagram inside, with a 3
panel overview of what one could genuinely expect from a Forth kernel
environment.
I forget waht panel 5 was, but panel 6 was the FIG application.
This is the one I distributed, and I just examined one. The message
is still timely.
Gary
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (05/09/90)
Date: 05-06-90 (10:40) Number: 3216 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: BOB LEE Read: (N/A) Subj: FIG, SIGFORTH, ETC. Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I belong to both FIG and SIGForth. I'm always shocked to hear how few people are members. I also play the steel guitar, and have the same sort of difficulties networking with other steel players. Are these figures correct: 2000 FIG members, 500 SIGForth members? Both organizations put out very nice periodicals. I'm amazed that they can do so on such a small scale. Embedded Systems Programming seems to be the best source for good Forth articles lately. Their authors presume a knowledge of engineering, but not necessarily a knowledge of Forth. As a result, these articles serve as an excellent introduction to Forth for programmers. A recent issue on multitasking was particularly good. Any guesses on how many professionals out there are using Forth regularly? -b0b- NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (06/03/90)
Category 18, Topic 11
Message 8 Sat Jun 02, 1990
D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 17:09 EDT
Re: robert-s@aucsv.aukuni.ac.nz (Robert Sheehan )
> current address of the Forth Interest Group
Forth Interest Group
P.O. Box 8231
San Jose, CA 95155
(408) 277-0668
As far as I know, "Starting Forth" is still available, it's Leo Brodie's
sequel "Thinking Forth" that is now out of print. Please let me know if you
have any problems.
DaR
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.eduForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/02/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 77 Sun Jul 01, 1990
GARY-S at 06:43 EDT
PORTED FROM Wetware =>
-------
--------------------
Item 12 by Luther Huffman (luther), on Sat, Jun 16, 1990 (08:43)
FIG Question
Maybe someone can help me. Does anybody have a current address of FIG
(Forth
Interest Group? Also, do they still publish "Forth Dimension"? Got any
back issues you want to unload?
Your fairwitness just happens to also SysOp the FIG sponsored GEnie Forth
RoundTable. FIG's address is as follows:
Forth Interest Group
P O Box 8231
San Jose, CA 95155
phone: (408) 277-0668 fax: (408) 286-2969
They have mail order forms, with back issues of FD, current membership,
and LOTS of books for you to drool over. Tell 'em gars sent ya!
gars
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.eduForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (08/06/90)
Category 18, Topic 11
Message 12 Sun Aug 05, 1990
GARY-S at 14:00 EDT
PORTED FROM the WELL =>
--------
From jax Thu Jul 26 07:42:00 1990
From: jax (Jack J. Woehr)
Subject: Re: Forth letters...
To: lll-winken!uunet!tnc!m0103
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 90 7:41:51 PDT
>
> I just read your news release on ECFB, and I must say...
>
> It's about time someone took a stand! Way to go!!!
>
> I have been getting fed up with FIG for a while (I've been a member
> for 6 years), but haven't known what to say...thanks for putting it
> into words for me.
> --Name = DAVID BREEDING Mailbox # = 103
>
Thanx for your support, David ... if you are still a member
of FIG and want to do something about it, fill in a nominating petition
like the one shown in the July/August FORTH Dimensions magazine for
my candidacy for the Forth Interest Group Board of Directors and send
it to them!
Be seeing you soon around the ForthNet!
<jax@well.{UUCP,sf.ca.us} >< Member, > /// ///\\\ \\\ ///
<well!jax@lll-winken.arpa >< X3J14 TC > /// /// \\\ \\\///
<JAX on GEnie >< for ANS > \\\ /// ///====\\\ ///\\\
<SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364>< Forth > \\\/// /// \\\ /// \\\
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.eduForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (09/03/90)
Category 18, Topic 11
Message 15 Sun Sep 02, 1990
D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 16:56 EDT
Re: etrmg@levels.sait.edu.au
> I've been trying to get onto GEnie for the past month & can't
Ronn, you are correct. Austrailia has not been hooked into GEnie yet, but I
am working on them and I have forwarded your message directly to GEnie to show
that there is indeed interest in the land down under.
Typically, GEnie works through its own network and is not accessable on either
Telenet of Tymnet. What they need is a local distributor who is willing to
service the customers. So far, those arrangements have been made in Canada,
Japan, and Germany/Austria/Switzerland. However, I have also heard rumors that
they are going to hook into the Public Data Networks. I am not sure, but your
PDN may actually be the OTC that you mentioned. In which case, you may have
access very soon. I will try to keep you informed.
Thanks for letting us know there is interest. We will see if we can get
something done about it.
Stay tuned! DaR
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or dwp@willett.pgh.pa.usForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/04/90)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 58 Sat Nov 03, 1990
GARY-S at 06:27 EST
In Message-ID: <5735.9011011206@olympus.cs.hull.ac.uk>
rst@cs.hull.ac.uk (Rob Turner) writes:
>How can I get hold of the Forth 83 standard?
By writing the Forth Interest Group
P. O. Box 8231
San Jose, CA 95155
USA
They will send you an order form. It is the same one in 'Forth
Dimensions' if you or a friend subscribes, Rob.
Gary
__ _ (Gary Smith) uunet!ddi1!lrark!glsrk!gars * gars@glsrk.uucp *
/ _' _ _ (_' P. O. Drawer 7680 * GEnie Forth RT & Unix RT SysOp *
/__/ (_|_/ '._) Little Rock,AR 72217 * winken!well!gars * claris!wet!gars *
---------------- - U. S. A. - * ames!chinet!gars * ph:501-227-7817 *
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/13/90)
Date: 11-09-90 (21:21) Number: 175 of 177
To: MICHAEL HARRIS Refer#: NONE
From: JAMES MEYER Read: NO
Subj: FORTH QUESTIONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
MH> Could anybody please send me info on how to get FORTH Dimensions
MH> I think that's the name. I live in Australia
Michael,
U.S.A. headquarters.. P.O.Box 8231
San Jose, California 95155
Australia FIG chapter..
c/o Lance Collins
65 Martin Road
Glen Iris, Victoria 3146
03/29-2600
BBS: 61 3 299 1787
Happy Forthing,
Jim
-> MegaMail v2.01 #0:Psychotronics Durham NC, Home of ???????
PCRelay:PSYCHO -> #796
4.10 Durham, NC = 919/286-7738 = Psychotronic BBS
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process.
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/26/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 64 Sat Nov 24, 1990 LRWEBBER at 22:30 EST A quick question: I have tried to call the closest chapter of FIG to where I live. This is listed as Fort Wayne, Indiana. The phone number listed in my last forth DIMENSIONS only get's me a message stating the number has been disconnected. Is the Fort Wayne FIG chapter still in existence? ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/09/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 67 Sat Dec 08, 1990 C.BRADFIELD2 [Brad] at 18:55 CST Hi, I'm new to Forth! I am however, not new to programing (COBOL, BASIC, Dbase III+, and a little C). I would like to try it. Is a compiler I can use before I get a full-blown one? What books should I get? Thanks Brad PS. My computer is a ZENITH Z-184-96 (laptop) msdos 3.21. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/11/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 68 Sun Dec 09, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 23:10 EST Brad, there are many Forth's to choose from for MS-DOS machines in our libraries, and many books to get you started. "Starting Forth" by Leo Brodie can be found in most computer book stores and is highly recommended. I'm sure others can tell you about other books, I just have a hard time remembering them all. However, being new to Forth, you should be warned a little about all the variants on the standards. The books can only describe some of the systems and most of our public domain systems here have something or else added to them that makes learning them more difficult. If you are into learning electronically, then F-PC is an excellent place to start. It has complete source code and uses text files that you are probably accustomed to. There are also LESSON files in the library to take you through an entire tutorial on the system. The only real draw back is how much disk space the system takes. A hard disk is highly recommended, but it has more features than anything else that we have. Search the library 4 for MSDOS to find all your other choices. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/19/90)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 70 Tue Dec 18, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 01:24 EST Re: rat@madnix.UUCP (David Douthitt) > Just curious... whatever happened to: > 1. Charles Moore? (Papa Forth!) Runs Computer Cowboys, makes Forth chips (latest Shaboom), still experimenting with Forth. > 2. Leo Brodie? Haven't heard lately. > 3. Elizabeth Rather? > 4. Forth, Inc.? Elizabeth is president of FORTH, Inc. (I work there also). We are all doing fine selling high end Forth systems. > 5. Novix, Inc.? Shut there doors a while ago. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/13/91)
Date: 02-08-91 (16:13) Number: 1087 of 1110 To: JAX Refer#: 1041 From: ANIL RODRIX Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Its a shame re dues; it seems paid membership has been dropping every year recently. My notice still says $30, tho last year i kicked 10 extra and was wondering whether to make it 20 more this year. Come on you all; if you have dropped off how about signing up again? Or is the general consensus that if FIG does not serve a useful purpose to a wide audience let it die a dignified natural death ? PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/13/91)
Date: 02-10-91 (02:09) Number: 1110 of 1110 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1075
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> continue in our quest for adding more value to your FIG membership.
-> We understand that this may cause some of you hardship, but please
-> understand that the need was very real.
->
My point was that declining membership and raising rates
is a cyclic thing. Also, it's no secret your advertising base
for 4D is evaporating, virtually non-existent.
-> On the topic of Chapter Coordinator, we have choosen to
-> leave that position unfilled at the present time. Since the subject
-> comes from you Jack, I wonder if it is prompted by some resentment
-> on your part. However, our decision has been made, and we will live
-> by it.
Dennis, my point is that you guys are doing nothing but
continuing in the same course that is driving FIG into the ground.
You still have no contact with the local chapters. Also, you
didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up with hand-picked
patsies.
You have chased me out of the national organization but two
things haven't changed:
1) I still care what happens to FIG.
2) The Board is still an assortment of prize chumps.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/13/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 77 Mon Feb 11, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 17:26 EST Re: JACK WOEHR > My point was that declining membership and raising rates > is a cyclic thing. Also, it's no secret your advertising base > for 4D is evaporating, virtually non-existent. Yes Jack, we are on the down side of the cycle right now, as are most user based organizations right now. The advertisers are also feeling the cyclic crunch, but they have NOT completely evaporated. We will survive, and I thank you all for sticking with us. > You still have no contact with the local chapters. Untrue, we have the Chapter Desk in the FIG offices that handles any enquires. Ask for Kent Stafford if any of you need anything. > Also, you didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up > with hand-picked patsies. I'm sorry, I forgot to address that one. We made the election process very clear to all of you, and we followed our Bylaws precisely. The election process was open to anyone who could generate enough support, yet, Jack you were the only one who even bothered to submit a petition. Unfortunately, you were unable to gather enough signatures to meet the requirements. Personally, I was sorry that was the case. I was looking forward to letting our members vote. However, the rules were clear, and it would have served no purpose to spend money on a ballot process when there was no competition for the positions. Better luck next time! > 1) I still care what happens to FIG. Great! Then why not suggest workable solutions rather than engage in personal bashing? > 2) The Board is still an assortment of prize chumps. My point exactly! Thank you for your support! {B-{)> DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/13/91)
Date: 02-10-91 (09:29) Number: 1116 of 1116 (Echo)
To: ANIL RODRIX Refer#: 1087
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Its a shame re dues; it seems paid membership has been dropping every
-> year recently. My notice still says $30, tho last year i kicked 10
-> extra and was wondering whether to make it 20 more this year.
The problem is that FIG is starving in the midst of plenty.
I don't even want to *tell* you how much I get paid per FORTH article
in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine. ESP practically has to
CHASE AWAY advertisers, their pages are so full of ads.
HOW COME FIG CAN'T MAKE MONEY?
HOW COME THEY HAVE LOST MOST OF THEIR ADVERTISERS?
The answer is, as I have found over the years, they don't know
what the hell they are doing running a magazine. Marlin *produces* a
pretty nice magazine single handed, but that is where it ends. There
is no marketing to speak of; marketing approaches to potential
advertisers by FIG are amateurish: I know because we at VESTA receive
every such advance. It is to weep.
-> Come on you all; if you have dropped off how about signing up again?
-> Or is the general consensus that if FIG does not serve a useful
-> purpose to a wide audience let it die a dignified natural death ?
The FIG ideal serves a purpose; the national/international
organization serves its purpose poorly. The Board needs to resign
and be replaced, now more than ever.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/14/91)
Date: 02-11-91 (09:17) Number: 1129 of 1138 (Echo) To: ANIL RODRIX Refer#: 1087 From: RAY DUNCAN Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) >if FIG does not serve a useful purpose... let it die a dignified >natural death The death of FIG is at least 10 years overdue. Too late for it to be dignified. NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/14/91)
Date: 02-11-91 (07:15) Number: 1133 of 1138 To: JACK WOEHR Refer#: 1110 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) In case you need any reinforcement in your position, after four or five years I let my FIG membership lapse, for precisely the concerns you have articulated. I am part of the very decline of which you speak. PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network 4.10 DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/14/91)
Date: 02-11-91 (07:24) Number: 1134 of 1138 To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1075 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Dennis, I don't exactly consider "adding value to your membership" to include a continuing heavy emphasis on articles in 4th Dim for the TI home computer and the Atari 800, and I don't consider it "value added" to neatly dispose of the only voice to get on the FIG board in years who was interested in trying to shake up a seemingly-moribund organization. Nor do I exactly consider it "value added" to go --what is it now, 5 years?-- without a financial report to the membership that consisted of any more than "things are OK, trust me." PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network 4.10 DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/14/91)
Date: 02-12-91 (16:46) Number: 1138 of 1138 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1119
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Untrue, we have the Chapter Desk in the FIG offices that handles any
-> enquires. Ask for Kent Stafford if any of you need anything.
->
This style of Chapter Coordination is apparently inspired by the
story of the little boy who lost a quarter one night and went home to
look for it because the light was better there ...
-> > Also, you didn't answer my question about fluffing the Board up >
-> > with hand-picked patsies.
-> I'm sorry, I forgot to address that one. We made the election
-> process very clear to all of you, and we followed our Bylaws
-> precisely. The election process was open to anyone who could
-> generate enough support, yet, Jack you were the only one who even
-> bothered to submit a petition. Unfortunately, you were unable to
-> gather enough signatures to meet the requirements. Personally, I was
-> sorry that was the case. I was looking forward to letting our
-> members vote. However, the rules were clear, and it would have
-> served no purpose to spend money on a ballot process when there was
-> no competition for the positions.
->
Yes, but according to Mike Elola, you did still have plans
to seat on the Board persons who did not even *attempt* to gather
signatures. For the third time I ask: did this sordid transaction
materialize? FIG members would probably like to hear the answer.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 83 Wed Feb 13, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 21:55 EST Re: JACK WOEHR > Yes, but according to Mike Elola, you did still have plans > to seat on the Board persons who did not even *attempt* to gather > signatures. For the third time I ask: did this sordid transaction > materialize? FIG members would probably like to hear the answer. I have quoted the process to you many times before Jack. The Board of Directors appoints a Nominating Committee who is reponsible for finding people who are willing to serve. If there is no member opposition (i.e. petitions) for the people that they choose, then the secretary casts a unanimous vote for them. If a petition is received (with the required number of signatures) then a vote of the members is required. It is a very simple process. Why are you having such a hard time understanding it? I was actually looking forward to a vote this last year. Although I was not on the Nominating Committee, it would have seemed kind of pointless for them to nominate someone who was going to submit a petition. Let me ask it this way Jack. If the Nominating Committee has nominated you and you joined the Board with no vote from the members, would still be using all the tastless names you have attributed to the Directors so far? I can tell you that the tables could have been turned very easily. However, I and several other Directors were hoping to have a membership ballot. Unfortunately, even you could not generate enough support to make it happen. So, yes we did add two new people to the Board of Directors. Dr. C.H. Ting and Dave Petty are now part of this group that you feel does not know how to do their jobs. I for one, hope they have thick enough skins to handle the abuse. It is a thankless job, but someone has to do it. {B-{)> DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 84 Wed Feb 13, 1991 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 23:27 CST To Dennis, Jax, Anil, etc. - re FIG & dues hike . Well, I agree with Anil and add my hope that any FIG dropouts will re-join. I burned myself out a year or two ago over the FIG dues question. At the time I thought the membership figures dropping correlated with the rising dues, and that the rising dues might have *caused* the declining membership. I felt then that a return to $15/year dues as in FIG's "heyday" might turn around the membership decline. (And might help lower the average age of FIG members.) I'd rather have the magazine on cheap paper going to lots of people than on slick paper going to just a few. And, yet, if the board says we can't drop the dues down, and must raise them again, I suppose they must know. Of course, I can't help wondering how high the dues will have to be when there are only 15 members left (joke). Did I see that the single issue price for Forth Dimensions was to be $10.00? Unless the issue in question has an article written by me, I feel that's a little steep. . -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 85 Wed Feb 13, 1991 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 23:28 CST To FIG: . Since this is the Feedback to the Forth Interest Group topic, this seems like a good place to bring a a "chapter co-ordination" matter. . For ever now, FD has listed Matt Lawrence under the Austin, Texas chapter (PO Box 180409, Austin, TX 78718) - no phone number. I don't think he is there any more. Maybe a year or more ago I tried writing him and got dead silence. I think the FIG office should try, and if they can't get in touch with him, should remove that listing from FD. Does anyone know the whereabouts of Matt? If he can't be reached, maybe FIG could contact some of the Austin FIG members to see if someone else would serve as the contact point. This would be a lot better than the dead silence that I fear inquirers are receiving now. There is a lot of computer & semi-conductor & college activity in Austin. Since FIG is hurting for members, it seems a shame to waste that possible source. I'm not in Austin, but if you want to list *me* as a contact point, feel free. If so, use this address: P.O. Box 1613, San Marcos, TX 78667. You can even list my phone number (512) 396- 4981. I do not intend to run a chapter, but I might give the occasional caller an encouraging word. (I'll say Pygmy is great and the other Forths are no good and that there never will be and never should be a standard Forth and that everyone should vote for Jax for the board. That's to give you an incentive to find someone *else*!) . -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 86 Thu Feb 14, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 22:01 EST Good one Frank! We'll run right out and add you to the list. <smile> Seriously though, unless someone is serious about taking over for Matt I would hesitate making any change at all. An address in the chapters listing, even a bad one, indicates that there have been enough users in the area to support a chapter. When that group of users decides to do something about it again, then they will (hopefully) let us know the new information. In the mean time, the bad address will serve to generate comments (like yours) that may prompt someone in the area to do something about it. FIG does not have either the manpower or money to investigate each of its chapters. A chapter is a member based orginization and it is up to its members to keep FIG informed of changes in its status. When they do, we try our best to make the changes in Forth Dimensions as soon as possible. We do this as a service to the local chapters, to promote their activities. If they do not care to take advantage of this service, it is their loss. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Date: 02-12-91 (17:11) Number: 1160 of 1161 To: JACK WOEHR Refer#: 1116 From: ANIL RODRIX Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Wow, sure strong words ! I cant evaluate since I havent been personally involved much. I take it you think advertising can bring in the greater part of revenues - I assume at present dues bring in the major part ? However I still wonder why subscriptions ( or memberships ) have been dropping so drastically - seems there musst be many diehard forthers who now consider staying in FIG not worth it, and few newcomers to take their place. PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/16/91)
Date: 02-13-91 (12:00) Number: 1161 of 1161 (Echo)
To: STEVE PALINCSAR Refer#: 1133
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> In case you need any reinforcement in your position, after four or
-> five years I let my FIG membership lapse, for precisely the concerns
-> you have articulated. I am part of the very decline of which you
-> speak.
Reminds me of Will Rogers: "I don't belong to an organized
political party. I'm a Democrat."
Well, it would be *nice* if we belonged to a programming
community that had a responsible and alert national organization
to advocate our interests. But we aren't and it doesn't.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 89 Fri Feb 15, 1991 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 23:36 CST DR> Seriously though, unless someone is serious about taking over for DR> Matt I would hesitate making any change at all. An address in the DR> chapters listing, even a bad one, indicates that there have been DR> enough users in the area to support a chapter. When that group of DR> users decides to do something about it again, then they will DR> (hopefully) let us know the new information. In the mean time, DR> the bad address will serve to generate comments (like yours) that DR> may prompt someone in the area to do something about it. . Isn't diversity of viewpoint wonderful? You really think it's better to have a wrong listing for a local chapter contact person than to have no listing at all? I am flabbergasted (as we say in Texas)! . Anyway, I was mainly addressing the FIG administrative office with my information that possibly Matt Lawrence had not been available for years and that it should confirm it one way or the other and if he wasn't available, correct the listing. FIG has the list of members; I don't. I was under the impression that FIG didn't need Jax as a chapter co-ordinator because that *function* was being covered by someone in the FIG office! If that function is covered it doesn't seem unreasonable to me for the office to (1) send a letter to Matt and if it isn't answered remove his listing from FD and (2) write to to one or two members in Austin to ask if they would serve as a contact point. If the 2nd is too much, the 1st is NOT (in my opinion, of course)! . Yes, I was joking about what a lousy contact person I'd make, to discourage FIG from picking me. Do you really think I'd be a *worse* local contact point than a wrong address would be? (Maybe I don't want to hear the answer to that.) This is incomprehensible to me. Don't pick me, I don't care. . Here, at a time when FIG is (or should be) complaining about falling membership, I thought it would be happy to correct a listing so it might then be able to get some new members. . Jax, if you are reading this, if you were still chapter co-ordinator, what would you have done if I'd written to you about the possible problem with the Austin listing? . Board of directors, is this really your position, that you'd all rather have an incorrect address for a local contact point than one of the other three obvious choices (1. no listing, 2. a FIG member in Austin, 3. Me.)? . -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Date: 02-13-91 (17:37) Number: 1162 of 1166 To: RAY DUNCAN Refer#: 1129 From: ANIL RODRIX Read: NO Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) If FIG dies sometime, I hope some sort of communication network (Forth oriented ) will continue. I have found other peoples ideas bery helpful. Now that ECFB folded theres not a whole lot of directions one can go for help. PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Date: 02-14-91 (12:59) Number: 1164 of 1166 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1140
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> I was actually looking forward to a vote this last year. Although I
-> was not on the Nominating Committee, it would have seemed kind of
-> pointless for them to nominate someone who was going to submit a
-> petition. Let me ask it this way Jack. If the Nominating Committee
-> has nominated you and you joined the Board with no vote from the
-> members, would still be using all the tastless names you have
-> attributed to the Directors so far? I can tell you that the tables
-> could have been turned very easily.
Actually, you and John Hall tried several times to persuade
me to accept such a nomination and I refused it as dishonorable under
the circumstances. I commend to your recollection many conversations we
all had on GEnie, as well as ask you to query John Hall on a
conversation he and I had on the phone last July.
As I explained before, an organization that is losing its
members due to its inability to *act* needs some fresh, outside
input of the sort that is not likely to be provided by hand-picked
successors. That type of system failed in East Germany and the
Soviet Union, and it is failing in FIG.
-> So, yes we did add two new people to the Board of Directors. Dr.
-> C.H. Ting and Dave Petty are now part of this group that you feel
-> does not know how to do their jobs. I for one, hope they have thick
-> enough skins to handle the abuse.
The suggestion that I would intentionally verbally abuse
my good friend of many years, Dr. Ting, I take you to have meant
facetiously. If the Board should attempt to use that estimable
scholar's good name as a shield for their incompetence it will only
discourage any attempt to revitalize the international FIG organization.
It has been said, "FIG started in Silicon Valley and for
the core members, if it only survived in Silicon Valley they would
be happy."
I think this is true, and that the Board doesn't care if
FIG survives as an international organization. This is what their
actions say, and actions speak louder than platitudes. Come to
think of it FIG hasn't even been offering us platitudes for some time!
The appointment of David Petty offers some hope. David is
nothing if not a hellraiser! However, I do recall that when Jack
Brown and I were both at the August meeting of X3J14 Jack studiously
avoided discussion of my candidacy for the board (at a time when
the petition signatures were not yet in) and buttonholed Dave Petty
about the Board off to the side.
So it's clear that what the Board is looking for is someone
the cut of whose jib they like, which may mean more of the same
failure-oriented management. Dr. Ting's organizational skills
are very strong, but against that lump of human inertia that is
the Board of Directors of the Forth Interest Group, he has his
work cut out for him.
If you had made Ting the president in place of the officious Mr.
Reiling, it would have offered more chances for success. But success
isn't what FIG has been about, not since they dropped the ball on
the annual conventions.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Date: 02-14-91 (13:07) Number: 1165 of 1166 (Echo)
To: ANIL RODRIX Refer#: 1160
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FORTH INTEREST GROUP RAIS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Wow, sure strong words ! I cant evaluate since I havent been
-> personally involved much.
It's like trying to wake the dead, Anil, and they ain't
even Gratefully dead!
-> I take it you think advertising can bring
-> in the greater part of revenues - I assume at present dues bring in
-> the major part ?
Advertising *must* bring in the *major* portion of the
magazine's revenue, that is the economics of the situation.
-> However I still wonder why subscriptions ( or
-> memberships ) have been dropping so drastically - seems there musst
-> be many diehard forthers who now consider staying in FIG not worth
-> it, and few newcomers to take their place.
FIG as a national organization has no grasp of the following:
- Business organization.
- Event organization.
- Relations with local chapters.
- Publicity.
- The economics of magazine publishing.
- Advertising salesmanship.
- What young amateur programmers think, want or need.
- What professional programmers think, want or need.
- Who their membership is and why.
- Who has left the organization and why.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 93 Sat Feb 16, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 16:05 EST Re: Frank > I thought it would be happy to correct a listing so it might then > be able to get some new members. Can you tell me how removing a local chapter from our list would get us new members? Re: Jack > If you had made Ting the president in place of the officious Mr. > Reiling, it would have offered more chances for success. Dr. Ting is current Vice-President. John Hall is President > ... not since they dropped the ball on the annual conventions. Are you suggesting that we continue to pour money into an activity which continually lost money? Talk about "failure-oriented management". Sheese > Advertising *must* bring in the *major* portion of the > magazine's revenue, that is the economics of the situation. <grin> Just how many magazines have you run Jack? Do you realize how few Forth vendors are still in business (let alone those who are making any kind of profit)? I'm still trying to figure out any positive suggestions you are offering Jack. Are you waiting until we place you onto the Board before you do anything about the situation? Do you expect that you can increase our respect for your opinions by continuing to bash our abilities. Give us some workable ideas. Show us what you would do differently. I gave you my support once, and placed you in the position of Chapter Coordinator. I saw an initial flurry of activity, but soon you resorted to your more familuar mode of bashing the very organization that you were supposed to be working for. How are we supposed to take your intentions now? "Trust is dead, ill payment killed it" DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Date: 02-15-91 (11:48) Number: 1168 of 1175 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1163
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> FIG does not have either the manpower or money to investigate each of
-> its chapters. A chapter is a member based orginization and it is up
-> to its members to keep FIG informed of changes in its status. When
-> they do, we try our best to make the changes in Forth Dimensions as
-> soon as possible. We do this as a service to the local chapters, to
-> promote their activities. If they do not care to take advantage of
-> this service, it is their loss.
This is a concise statement of what is wrong with the current
attitude at FIG.
For years, for years, Dennis, I have repeatedly pointed out
to you, John Hall, Will Baden and others that the UNITED STATES
CHESS FEDERATION is a member-based organization and IT KNOWS WHAT
ITS MEMBERS ARE DOING.
FIG doesn't know what the members are doing only because
FIG has its head up where the sun doesn't shine.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author
using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/18/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 95 Sun Feb 17, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 18:23 EST Re: JACK WOEHR > For years, for years, Dennis, I have repeatedly pointed out > to you, John Hall, Will Baden and others that the UNITED STATES > CHESS FEDERATION is a member-based organization and IT KNOWS WHAT > ITS MEMBERS ARE DOING. Yes, for years you have been saying that, but I have yet to hear any concise proposal from you as to what the Chess Federation is doing to accomplish this. All I have been hearing is how we are doing it wrong and they are magiclly doing "it" right. I have yet to hear what you consider "it" is. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Date: 02-15-91 (12:45) Number: 1179 of 1188 To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1140 From: ANIL RODRIX Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) I saw a message re signatures for Jack's nomination on one of the nets after the date had passed ( I was probably not BBsing a lot that period) . But I am curious how many signatures are required for a valid petition ? PCRelay:PROPC -> #288 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 Pittsburgh ProPC BBS (412) 321-6645 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Date: 02-16-91 (11:04) Number: 1186 of 1188 (Echo)
To: FRANK SERGEANT Refer#: 1169
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Jax, if you are reading this, if you were still chapter co-ordinator,
-> what would you have done if I'd written to you about the possible
-> problem with the Austin listing?
What I did in circumstances like this was call the party
in question at my own expense and verify. Kent Safford would then
process the list according to my reports.
Kent is a very helpful individual, but Kent has made it
perfectly clear to FIG that it is not his job to go pursue information
about the chapters. The management organization that Kent is part
of is there to answer the phone, handle advertising for 4D and due
bookkeeping chores and is not briefed to take initiatives on its
own.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Date: 02-16-91 (11:10) Number: 1187 of 1188 (Echo)
To: ALL Refer#: NONE
From: JACK WOEHR Read: (N/A)
Subj: THANX FOR CONFIRMATION! Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
BTW ... I was fired as FIG Chapter Coordinator (without a
hearing) for one particular offence:
I started a topic on GEnie last spring titled,
"FIG is f***ed financially" <- explitive overstruck for port / Gary
Thank you, FIG, for confirming my statement with your
33% increase in dues this year.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Date: 02-16-91 (16:05) Number: 1188 of 1188 (Echo) To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1163 From: MICHAEL HOBSON Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) -> FIG does not have either the manpower or money to investigate each of -> its chapters. A chapter is a member based orginization and it is up -> to its members to keep FIG informed of changes in its status. When -> they do, we try our best to make the changes in Forth Dimensions as -> soon as possible. We do this as a service to the local chapters, to -> promote their activities. If they do not care to take advantage of -> this service, it is their loss. This statement is semantically identical to saying that FIG does not have any responsibility for the chapters or their existance. Since you do not choose to be responsible for the chapters in any way, I suppose you should not be surprised to see them dwindle into dust, along with your membership; and neither should you feel any cause to complain about lack of interest or low memberships, since you have choosen not be responsible for any of these things. Michael A. Hobson P.S. - I would never have heard of FIG, if it weren't for the citation in "Starting Forth". I would not know that it still existed, if it weren't for this network; because there are no visible promotional activities whatsoever. If your magazine (Forth Dimensions) could at least be found on the shelf at Soft Warehouse (which carries several other fairly obscure programmer's mags, like *Circuit Cellar Ink*, *Tech Specialist*, and *The C Gazzette* at slightly discounted rates), you might be able to generate some of the "hey, what is this?" type of interest that could get you some new blood (and income). However, it would probably be too much work for your people to actually market your magazine and possibly insure your survival. NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 100 Mon Feb 18, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 14:34 EST Re: ANIL RODRIX > But I am curious how many signatures are required for a valid > petition ? BYLAWS FOR THE GOVERNANCE AND REGULATION OF THE AFFAIRS OF THE FORTH INTEREST GROUP ARTICLE VIII ELECTION OF DIRECTORS SECTION 1 NOMINATIONS AND SOLICITATIONS FOR VOTE (b) Nominations by Members. Any twenty-five (25) Members may nominate condidates for directorships at any time before the ninetieth (90) day preceding such election. On timely receipt of a petition signed by the required number of Memebers, The Secretary shall cause the names of the candidates named on it to be placed on the ballot along with those candidates named by the Nominating Committee. Re: JACK WOEHR > BTW ... I was fired as FIG Chapter Coordinator (without a > hearing) for one particular offence: Jack, you had a hearing. I called it myself. There was no need for you to be present to explain your actions because your actions were made in public and you had made your intentions very clear. While your message post was certainly the "straw that broke the camel's back", it was not the reason for your dismissal. You discussed FIG financial statements in public (i.e. issued a press release concerning them) You were appointed to encourage new chapters. No new chapters were added. I seem to remember Jack, that you claimed FIG would be out of money before the year was out. Well we are still here and we have not had to file for bankruptcy protection. Re: MICHAEL HOBSON > This statement is semantically identical to saying that FIG does > not have any responsibility for the chapters or their existance. FIG is not "responsible" for the chapters, but we will do anything within our powers to help the get started and survive. > and neither should you feel any cause to complain about lack of > interest or low memberships, Have I or any other Director "complained" about low membership or a lack of interest? Rather, I think our remaining members are very enthusiastic about FIG. There are a disgruntled few who think that FIG should do more, but I've usually found their expectations to be unrealistic. We do what we can, given the volunteer nature of this organization. If that is not enough, then we can not stop you from leaving any more than we can stop you from trying to help. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 101 Mon Feb 18, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 14:43 EST Re: MICHAEL HOBSON oops, I forgot your P.S. > If your magazine (Forth Dimensions) could at least be found on > the shelf at Soft Warehouse... We are presently experimenting with this idea in the San Jose area (I forget which book store at the moment). It seems to be working, last I heard, but I haven't heard plans for how we could expand it. Thank you for the suggestion of SoftWarehouse. It is worth persuing. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Date: 02-17-91 (12:25) Number: 1211 of 1211 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1181
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Re: Jack
-> > If you had mad Ting the president in place of the officious Mr. >
-> Reiling, it would have offered more chances for success.
-> Dr. Ting is current Vice-President. John Hall is President
Great. Is this a state secret or were you planning on announcing
it eventually in 4D? I know, you probably buried the announcement like
you buried the announcement of elections last summer!
-> > ... not since they dropped the ball on the annual conventions.
-> Are you suggesting that we continue to pour money into an activity
-> which continually lost money? Talk about "failure-oriented
-> management". Sheese
The conventions lost money because they were mismanaged. Let
me give a counter-example: The Embedded Systems Conference last
fall in San Mateo, sponsored by ESP magazine, probably made more money
in three days than FIG has made in its entire history. The target
audience was essentially the same as FIG's (if FIG saw the obvious).
You guys could die of thirst swimming in Lake Washington.
-> > Advertising *must* bring in the *major* portion of the >
-> magazine's revenue, that is the economics of the situation.
-> <grin> Just how many magazines have you run Jack? Do you realize
-> how few Forth vendors are still in business (let alone those who are
-> making any kind of profit)?
Vesta Technology makes a very nice profit, thank you!
I have managed NO magazines, have written for MANY that make
money. The management of none of them bore much resemblence to the
aimless, advertiser-alienating bungling that characterizes 4D.
Last time I checked, it cost about as much to advertise
in 4D as in ESP magazine.
4D circulation: ~2000 ... ESP circulation: ~25,000
Your answer, Dennis, to this was, and I quote: "That's how
much it takes to publish this magazine." Dennis, you should work
for the government, because that's how they think. Real magazines raise
their rates when the circulation goes UP, not DOWN.
-> I'm still trying to figure out any positive suggestions you are
-> offering Jack. Are you waiting until we place you onto the Board
-> before you do anything about the situation? Do you expect that you
-> can increase our respect for your opinions by continuing to bash our
-> abilities. Give us some workable ideas. Show us what you would do
-> differently.
My suggestions are, once again, for the 1000th time:
- Put magazine on firm financial footing. Sell ads like real
magazines sell their advertising.
- Promote FIG in a professional manner. No more bullshit
about "Forth Day" and other kindergarten tricks.
- Realize your focus. FIG is there primarily for the beginner
and the hobbyist. Find something to sell these people.
- Admit that FIG is virtually broke, write off some of that
worthless "inventory" that you will never sell, hit up some
big corporations for one-time donations to get FIG back
in a position where it can function as an international
organization.
- DO SOMETHING for the Chapters. Every month. Like clockwork.
Anything. Call them and hold their hands. Send them speakers.
Borrow money to do it if you have to. Sell life charter member-
ships if you have to.
- FIG needs a full-time office (wo)manned by one or two
professionals. The current "management" organisation should
have been dispensed with four years ago.
These suggestions are a sampling. They are of the nature
of "campaign promises" and should not be taken too literally.
WHAT FIG NEEDS IS SOMEONE ON THE JOB. Someone who can
take expedient, rather than ideological action quickly and in
response to opportunity. FIG is as dull and slow-moving as
a 1830's chess game before the chess clock was invented. We need
SOMEONE PLAYING SPEED CHESS HERE. FIG IS DYING AS AN INTERNATIONAL
ORGANIZATION.
-> I gave you my support once, and placed you in the
-> position of Chapter Coordinator. I saw an initial flurry of
-> activity, but soon you resorted to your more familuar mode of bashing
-> the very organization that you were supposed to be working for. How
-> are we supposed to take your intentions now?
It goes both ways, buddy. I thought you guys were good-hearted
bunglers, but I begin to suspect your asses are glued to the chairs.
Well, let's see what John Hall and Dr. Ting can do. They couldn't do
worse than has been done. If they fail, there won't be enough left of
FIG to make it worth rescuing.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/19/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 103 Tue Feb 19, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 00:59 EST Re: JACK WOEHR > The conventions lost money because they were mismanaged. If you feel you can do a better job, throw one yourself. The local Forth Day being thrown by the Silicon Valley FIG chapter is doing quite well. Why don't you do the same in your area? If you can equal or exceed the SVFIG results, we might consider letting you try your hand at the real thing. Until then, all I can say is that it is real easy to throw blame around when you have no concept of reality. > Vesta Technology makes a very nice profit, thank you! Congratulations, and the fact that you are basically giving away your Forth with the hardware you are selling (quite good hardware by the way) makes no difference at all. <grin> Name me one company who is making money selling Forth. > - Put magazine on firm financial footing. Sell ads like real > magazines sell their advertising. Please instruct us if you know. > - Promote FIG in a professional manner. We are working on that. Could you give us some concrete examples of how you would like to see it done and how it would be funded. > - Realize your focus. FIG is there primarily for the beginner > and the hobbyist. Find something to sell these people. The beginner is an easy target audience. We have been serving them well for years. However, we would like to increase our audience and be able to keep these people once they have grown beyound their initial experiences. You are suggesting we don't bother, but I don't consider that to be good enough. > - Admit that FIG is virtually broke Hum...news to me. > hit up some big corporations for one-time donations You got any in mind? How about VESTA? What size of check can we expect? > - DO SOMETHING for the Chapters....Borrow money to do it if you > have to. Ah, go into debt for the first time in our existance. > Sell life charter memberships if you have to. Another good money making proposition. > - FIG needs a full-time office (wo)manned by one or two > professionals. Do you have suggestions about how we would pay them? Are you volunteering to give up your job and do it for free? > They are of the nature of "campaign promises" and should not be > taken too literally. Good! I'll let you know when the next election will be held. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/21/91)
Date: 02-18-91 (08:34) Number: 1242 of 1243 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1189
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> > For years, for years, Dennis, I have repeatedly pointed out >
-> to you, John Hall, Will Baden and others that the UNITED STATES >
-> CHESS FEDERATION is a member-based organization and IT KNOWS WHAT >
-> ITS MEMBERS ARE DOING.
-> Yes, for years you have been saying that, but I have yet to hear any
-> concise proposal from you as to what the Chess Federation is doing to
-> accomplish this. All I have been hearing is how we are doing it wrong
-> and they are magiclly doing "it" right. I have yet to hear what you
-> consider "it" is.
And for years I have been telling you what they are doing,
but it is natural that my blabbing go in one ear and out the other.
So don't listen to me; the latest issue of CHESS LIFE is pretty
illustrative of just how they go about talking to their members and
how they go about orienting the magazine to the need of their most
important constituency, the beginners and advanced amateurs. Why
not pick up a copy at the newsstand and read it cover to cover?
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/22/91)
Date: 02-19-91 (10:07) Number: 1247 of 1247 (Echo)
To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: 1213
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Jack, you had a hearing. I called it myself. There was no need for
-> you to be present to explain your actions because your actions were
-> made in public and you had made your intentions very clear. While
-> your message post was certainly the "straw that broke the camel's
-> back", it was not the reason for your dismissal.
You would work out well in the People's Republic of China,
Dennis. People there don't get heard either when on trial.
->
-> You discussed FIG financial statements in public
-> (i.e. issued a press release concerning them)
You had already suspended (and possibly voted to fire) me
by the time I issued the press release. I was suspended for posting
to GEnie that "FIG is fucked financially", as you well know.
->
-> You were appointed to encourage new chapters.
-> No new chapters were added.
That's a lie, Dennis! Two lies, actually.
First: A chapter was added ... the first Finnish chapter I
constituted in Finland. I made the arrangments via Kent Safford
and personally by Internet mail with Janne.
The second lie you told is to imply that the charge you stated
was ever made! The charge of "adding no new chapters" was
never named before. At least, this is the first anyone here has
heard of it. Maybe the Star Chamber heard it in my absence.
-> I seem to remember Jack, that you claimed FIG would be out of money
-> before the year was out. Well we are still here and we have not
-> had to file for bankruptcy protection.
Your "bankruptcy protection" is the same as the government's:
You raised taxes without delivering more services. QED, friend, you
have proven my point.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/22/91)
Date: 02-18-91 (19:28) Number: 1252 of 1262 To: DENNIS RUFFER Refer#: NONE From: IAN WATTERS Read: NO Subj: FEEDBACK TO THE FORTH INT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) DR012I have quoted the process to you many times before Jack. The Board 012of Directors appoints a Nominating Committee who is reponsible for 012finding people who are willing to serve. If there is no member 012opposition (i.e. petitions) for the people that they choose, then 012the secretary casts a unanimous vote for them. If a petition is 012received (with the required number of signatures) then a vote of 012the members is required. It is a very simple process. Why are 012you having such a hard time understanding it? I doubt he has any problems in understanding the system, but I have a problem in understanding why you would use it... You have a regular mailing to all members (FD), so there's really no excuse for not asking for nominations from the membership and then having a ballot. Did you ever hear about the system used in Renaissance Venice? A committee picked another committee, which drew lots to select another committee, which voted on another committee, which picked another... and so on for about fifteen steps! It was designed to stop one faction dominating. FIG's seems to be designed to discourage involvement. If the NC's nominations are usually accepted (ie not actively opposed by "enough" people), then the majority of the membership will begin to feel that the selection is nothing to do with them. That's not what you want, particularly with a declining membership... //\/\/ --- ~ SLMR 1.05 #109 ~ It was the best of taglines, the worst of taglines... PCRelay:OLEF -> #181 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 O.L.E.F.1. London ->OLEF (+44) 81-882-9808 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/22/91)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 107 Sat Feb 23, 1991
F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 15:24 CST
DR> Can you tell me how removing a local chapter from our list would
DR> get us new members?
.
Yes and no. First, keep in mind that I was not suggesting removing a
local chapter from your list in FD. I proposed, at a minimum, deleting an
incorrect listing for the Austin chapter. As a cautionary measure, I
suggested that FIG verify my belief (that Matt Lawrence at Box 180409,
Austin, TX 78718, no phone number, hasn't been reachable in years!) before
taking action. My own attempt to reach him some time ago was a failure. I
feel a difference could be drawn between "removing a local chapter from our
list" and "deleting an incorrect entry from our list." However, that was not
my only suggestion. I also suggested *replacing* Matt with a FIG member in
Austin who could serve as a contact point. I even, foolishly, offered to let
my own address & phone be listed if no one else could be found.
.
Now, obviously I was in error. I think I've traced it down. I think I
erroneously remembered hearing that, even though Jax had been removed as
chapter co-ordinator, the *functions* of chapter co-ordinator would be
handled by the FIG office. (I think my suggestions were reasonable within
the bounds of that erroneous assumption.) Jax points out (I hope I
extrapolate correctly here) that the FIG office management group contracts to
do certain functions but that what I suggested doesn't fall within those
functions. Well, fair enough!
.
As to how deleting an *incorrect* chapter listing could get us new
members: Now we are really into metaphysics. I felt like I'd fallen down
the rabbit hole (in Alice in Wonderland) when I got your first reply to what
I thought was my innocent, helpful, non-controversial information that I
thought the Austin chapter listing was wrong. I was serious when I mentioned
"diversity of viewpoint" in my following posting. I mean, like, you know, I
*really* had never considered that a bad address and *unreachable* contact
person was *better* than no listing (or perhaps saying "Austin Chapter,
status unknown")! So, you helped expand my intellectual universe. I don't
think I can prove that correcting the listing will get us more members and I
don't think you can prove it would get us fewer members. We can only
speculate. I speculate that correcting the listing improves FIG's
credibility or, at least, knowingly failing to correct an incorrect listing
worsens FIG's credibility. Suppose a FIG member in New York writes his
cousin attending the University of Texas in Austin to recommend Forth. He
gives the cousin the address of the local chapter contact person from FD.
From want of already being a thoroughly dedicated Forth enthusiast, the
cousin only writes one letter to Matt, gets no answer, and never thinks of it
again in his life. Is that an unlikely scenario? Maybe. I think we have no
way of tallying any such lost members. How serious is this? I don't know.
I didn't mean to get into a great controversy over pointing out the
possibility of an incorrect listing in FD!
.
-- Frank
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/22/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 108 Sat Feb 23, 1991 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 15:25 CST Volunteers . While we are on this subject of FIG, I have a few more comments. . Beggars can't be choosers, as the old saying goes. I am not demanding that FIG do anything in particular. I want to emphasize this in case my suggestions about correcting a chapter listing in FD have been misunderstood by anyone. . I think we need to accept what the FIG volunteers do and be grateful for it. If we want it done but aren't willing to do it ourselves I don't see how we have any right to demand that someone else volunteer to do it. Further, what is done is probably done out of a good heart and partly for the joy of associating with and good will toward our fellow Forth enthusiasts. Surely by heavy criticism of volunteers we do not increase their willingness to contribute. Take me, for example. I'm happy to have people use Pygmy, but what if someone were to DEMAND that I add this feature, make that change, show him how to solve a problem. I'd probably laugh the first few times with "**** you, you're lucky I do anything at all." If it continued, I might turn bitter. (Oh, you thought I was already bitter? No, no.) Indeed, it is the occasional thank you or hint of appreciation that keeps me going. . This appreciation for what the volunteers do, however, does not completely prevent us from gently pointing out in each other what we perceive to be errors in logic, fact, viewpoint, (or parentage?). But such errors, and criticism of those errors, shouldn't overshadow the good will. . Merely as a matter of opinion: I would prefer to have Jax raising hell and criticizing FIG and doing *anything* as chapter co-ordinator rather than have no chapter co-ordinator. I do not dispute the board's right to fire Jax. I wish wish wish I'd signed Jax's petition for nomination. I didn't "bother" as I was sure he'd get plenty of signatures. (I bet there were 24 other people who felt the same way.) . On the other hand, I think Dennis is on very shaky ground when he claims to have given Jax a hearing WITHOUT THE NEED FOR JAX BEING PRESENT! Dennis, say the board is not required to give him a hearing! Say the board merely exercised its executive authority to dismiss an employee or officer! But, by the very definition of HEARING, never mind the long tradition in English and U.S. law of allowing an accused to hear the charges and evidence and face his accusers, it is clear to me that a "hearing" Jax wished to be present at was at *best* a SHAM if Jax was not allowed to attend! (Am I in Alice's wonderland again or does anyone agree with me?) . While I regret the lack of a chapter co-ordinator, I am very happy with other aspects of FIG: I really, really, really liked FORML (sponsored by FIG). FORML alone *may* compensate for anything else I might not be happy about. I liked it so much that I am considering attending Rochester (in spite of serious reservations about whether I can afford it). Also, I'm very glad the FIG sponsored Forth roundtable is available on GEnie. I'm glad to hear FIG is reaching out through bookstore(s) with FD. I'm glad publications are available through FIG. I'm glad FD is such a pretty magazine (but, maybe it is too pretty if dues have to be raised to keep the slick cover on it!). . When Jax says that FIG's finances are expletive overstruck and Dennis says that is completely false and Jax says the 33-1/3% dues hike proves he was correct, I feel the weight of logic is on Jax's side. . When Dennis says he's not concerned about the fall in membership and that the ones remaining are happy and enthusiastic, I have to agree that Dennis is correct. I rather wish he was concerned, though, but that's just my own opinion. (The ones who weren't happy enough or enthusiastic enough voted with their feet, so now we remaining happy enthusiastics pay higher dues.) If I attended FORML and may attend Rochester, how can I worry about dues increasing by a third? And, let's face it, FIG gets that magazine out like clockwork. It must not be an easy task, witness sigFORTH's publication and all of Jax's complaints about JFAR being late. And, as far as office administration goes, the sigFORTH non-ACM fee is $33/year, but if you are not *real* careful they will try to charge you $42/year. And, the people in the ACM office may well be on salary (a weak point here, I admit). . And last, I am in complete disagreement with Jax suggesting it is OK for FIG to borrow money. Neither a borrower ... be! I'm glad to hear the board is not considering that a wise course. . -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/27/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 109 Sun Feb 24, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 22:26 EST Frank, thank you for reminding us what volunteerism is all about. I could not agree more. No, I do not expect everyone to agree with my opinions, and will gladly discuss them. I will also gladly accept anything you want to volunteer. Jack is correct, that Kent is not being paid to verify the chapters. If you can help us correct the contact information for Austin, it would be greatly appreciated. I too would prefer a "hellraiser" for Chapter Coordinator to no Chapter Coordinator, but the Board of Directors has voted on this issue and as a fellow Director, I stand by their decision. I was the one who made the suggestion for a hearing, but it was pointed out that I was out of line on two points. First, the Chapter Coordinator is an appointment made by the President and he can withdraw that appointment at any time. He did, however, choose to allow the other Board members to vote on the matter. The second point comes from my misuse of Robert's Rules of Order. Under Disciplinary Procedures, Offenses Elsewhere than in a Meeting; Trials, it states the following: "If improper conduct by a member of a society occurs elsewhere than at a meeting, the members generally have no first-hand knowledge of the case. Therefore, if disciplinary action is to be taken, charges must be preferred and a formal trial held..." Well, although Jack's actions were not done during a meeting, they were all made publicly and we all knew precisely what he did. There was no need for charges to be brought against him. Thus there was no need for him to be given the chance to defend himself against any charges. The facts were self evident in this case. There was no hearing and there were no accusations. The Board voted on the public evidence (most of which is still here today). Therefore, on both points, I was out of line even to suggest that a hearing be called, and the Board of Directors had no desire to give Jack a forum for him to bash us even further. We merely voted to remove an appointment that was not serving its purpose. I really hope you do take the time to go to Rochester Frank. The contrast to FORML is quite remarkable and it should give you added insight into the Forth industry as a whole. I did not say that FIG is completely worry free financially. Of course, as our membership drops, we have to take steps to keep ourselves in business. Raising rates is one step and others are in progress. I also will say that I am very concerned about why people are not renewing their memberships to FIG and I always take the time to ask. Where there is a problem I can solve, I do my best to do so, but as you have said very well, I am just another volunteer. At the moment, a VERY over committed volunteer with many plates in the fire. I do what I can, but the toits have been very sparse as of late. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/27/91)
Date: 02-22-91 (13:40) Number: 1276 of 1301 To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: CHARLIE HITSELBERGER Read: (N/A) Subj: JAX ATTACKS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Jack and Dennis: It's all very interesting to follow Jack's quixotic attacks on FIG's board of directors. Sometimes it is even amusing to read these angle-bracket-quoted messages. I really enjoy it. I am not a member of FIG. I got my introduction to Forth from Dr. Dobb's Journal back issues around 1983. Since then, I've used it professionally once (for two years, MMSForth on a TRS-80 4) and amateurishly for 7 years (Blazin' Forth, et al. on a Commie 64). I have an incarnation of Forth on my PC, but I consider owning an MS-DOS machine to be a necessary evil. I also have Forthsim on my VAX at work. It seems to me that most forthers are either embedded-controller hardware hacker types, or PC forth users. So what's my point? I'm beginning to wonder myself. Jack, if you don't like what FIG is doing, and you aren't offering anything but flames, perhaps you could do better to start your own group and compete head-to-head against the evil empire of FIG. For a name, I would like to suggest "Belligerent Forth Dudes" (or B.F.D. as the acronym). Do a newsletter, an annual convention, define your own language standard... I know *I* would join! Facetiously yours, Charlie Hitselberger PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network 4.10 DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (02/27/91)
Date: 02-24-91 (10:28) Number: 1313 of 1313 (Echo)
To: CHARLIE HITSELBERGER Refer#: 1276
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: JAX ATTACKS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Jack, if you don't like what FIG is doing,
I don't like what FIG is *not* doing!
-> and you aren't offering anything but flames,
As Dennis Ruffer and other longtime GEnie readers know,
from time to time over the past four years I have offered constructive
suggestions. They have been pretty uniformly ignored. Lately Dennis
attempted to set up a straw dog for him to knock down in the form
of a complete program for FIG ... I would have, once again, to have
access to the sort of information that FIG hides from its members
(to disguise their incompetence) to formulate a business-like program
to bring FIG back from well-over-the-brink of disaster.
-> perhaps you could do better to start your own
-> group and compete head-to-head against the evil empire of FIG.
I have never considered that possibility very seriously.
I consider FIG the "mother church" of Forth fraternal organizations.
I was asked to run for office in SIG-Forth and declined.
-> For a
-> name, I would like to suggest "Belligerent Forth Dudes" (or B.F.D. as
-> the acronym). Do a newsletter, an annual convention, define your own
-> language standard... I know *I* would join!
Tell ya what ... if I ever get on the board of FIG, my first
motion will be to change the name of the organization to "the FORTH
International" :-)
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/04/91)
Date: 02-26-91 (08:46) Number: 1344 of 1349 To: JONAH THOMAS Refer#: NONE From: CHARLIE HITSELBERGER Read: NO Subj: ORGANIZATION Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Actually, I was being semi-sarcastic. However, I *REALLY* would like to see an organization that would bring Forth to me, the low-end hobbyist. If only there were some organization that embodied the enthusiasm and altruistic sharing that was so commonplace in the early days of personal computing. Back then, there was the Homebrew Computer Club, the T.R.A.N.S.I.S.T.O.R.S. (see Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream Machines"), and lots of readily available, free help for the asking. Doctor Dobbs published entire language implementations in print! I am not advocating a return to these archaic technologies. While my favorite machine is a Commodore 64, I earn my living on a relatively high-end machine (a microVAX). What I do want to see is a return to that computer Camelot when guys like Jobs and Woz would build a machine in their garage that would quite literally capture the imagination of millions. What I see instead is more and more MS-DOS regimentation, creeping UNIX, and cyber-yuppies who hand you a business card when you ask them a question, instead of answering it with a two-hour arm-waving monologue. Perhaps now that computing power is so commonplace, the sense of urgency to spread literacy is diminished. Forth appears to be a declining language, being replaced for the most part by C. Jack, I see in you signs of that spark that can keep an enthusiastic Forth following alive. So in one sense, my suggestion that a new user group be formed was genuine. Charlie Hitselberger PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network 4.10 DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/04/91)
Date: 02-26-91 (16:04) Number: 1345 of 1349 To: CHARLIE HITSELBERGER Refer#: 1276 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: JAX ATTACKS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Don't be too hard on Jax for his comments RE FIG. There's some pretty nasty history there. Perhaps you missed all the fun on Forthnet a year or two ago when Jax was a Fig official, and was unceremoniously fired without any explanation, hearing, whatever. My recollection of the affair *AS IT MADE FORTHNET* is quite different from what DaR is saying now. At the time, nobody knew why Jax was fired; Fig never bothered to say. In fact, they flat refused to say, as I remember it. This "fig's finances are fucked" message on Genie business they're talking about now is the first time I ever heard of it, and I was folowing the exchange back when fairly closely. In plain fact, regardless of the excuses given now, Jax was fired simply because he criticized FIG. Note, too, that this is the same FIG that has *YET* to issue to its members the "full financial disclosure" that I asked for over two, maybe even over three, years ago. The one I asked for after the question of FIG remuneration from GENIE being secret, that they couldn't reveal it to members because of their contract with GE, came up. After waiting for over a year for an answer, I finally gave up and failed to renew. Jax has many reasons to be bitter, and I think we all have many reasons to be pretty discouraged about the organization. PCRelay:DCINFO -> #16 MetroLink (tm) International Network 4.10 DC Info Exchange MetroLink International Hub <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/04/91)
Date: 02-28-91 (09:38) Number: 1368 of 1368 (Echo)
To: CHARLIE HITSELBERGER Refer#: 1344
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: ORGANIZATION Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Forth appears to be a declining language, being replaced for the most
-> part by C. Jack, I see in you signs of that spark that can keep an
-> enthusiastic Forth following alive. So in one sense, my suggestion
-> that a new user group be formed was genuine.
Oh, I appreciated the suggestion, Charlie. No question about
it but that Forth and Forth programmers would be better served by
an organization that took more of an active role in technical and
human issues advocacy for our community.
As for Forth being in decline, I don't believe it. Forth
is used more and more every year in embedded control, the field
for which Mr. Moore originally designed the language.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/04/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 117 Sun Mar 03, 1991 B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad] at 10:22 EST > Well,although Jack's actions were not done during a meeting, they > were all made publicly and we all knew precisely what he did. > There was no need for charges to be brought against him. Thus > there was no need for him to be given the chance to defend himself > against any charges. The facts were self evident in this case. > There was no hearing and there were no accusations. The Board > voted on public evidence (most of which is still here today). This could be shortened to "we know he's guilty, so who needs a trial?" If you want to exercise executive power to fire someone, fine; but calling this a "hearing" is a travesty. - Brad ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/04/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 118 Sun Mar 03, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 16:24 EST Re: B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad] >> There was no hearing and there were no accusations. The Board >> voted on public evidence (most of which is still here today). > >... calling this a "hearing" is a travesty. Precisely why we did not claim any such thing Brad DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/10/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 119 Sat Mar 09, 1991 B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad] at 13:32 EST Category 1, Topic 2, Message 100, from D.RUFFER: > Jack, you had a hearing. I called it myself. There was no need > for you to be present... Category 1, Topic 2, Message 109, from D.RUFFER: > Therefore, on both points, I was out of line even to suggest that > a hearing be called, and the Board of Directors had no desire to > give Jack a forum for him to bash us even further. O.K., Dennis, which is it: a) Jack was fired without a hearing, OR b) Jack was fired with a hearing. - Brad ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/11/91)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 120 Sun Mar 10, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 02:07 EST
Re: B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad]
> O.K., Dennis, which is it:
The position of Chapter Coordinator that Jack held was terminated.
DaR
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/15/91)
Date: 03-12-91 (20:11) Number: 1495 of 1495 (Echo)
To: FRANK SERGEANT Refer#: 1479
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: OPEN LETTER TO NEW FIG PR Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
-> Jax, I
-> hope in my attempt to present a reasoned, moderate view I didn't
-> give the impression that my support for your position is weaker than
-> it actually is.
Not at all, Frank! I didn't want to put words in anybody's
mouth. You made it clear before that you thought I was a) tactless
and b) probably correct. So I characterized that while dropping your
name (with a thud! apologize about the misspelling!) as "qualified
support."
-> I believe you and I are in almost complete
-> agreement. The exceptions as I see them are (1) whether Fig should
-> ever consider borrowing money
Probably not. Actually, I was rather hoping FIG could shake
down some big corporations for a grant!
-> (2) whether Fig had a right to "can" you
It's borderline, even by their "good old buddy" charter.
Dennis admitted as much. The Board's attitude is, "you ain't gonna
sue us and the members don't care, so whatcha gonna do about it?"
This attitude has been expressed to me by several Board members,
never characterizing it as their *own* view, mind you, but the
"view of the Board."
-> (forgive me) tactlessness
Thanks for the euphemism! :-)
-> I don't, however, see how that interferes with co-ordinating
-> chapters.
It actually helps. The chapters love to see people stick
pins in national FIG, hoping that some day it will awaken.
-> I can also see that, since you are/were a volunteer,
-> rather than a salaried employee, that you could feel you have the
-> right to speak the truth as you see it, regardless of whether it
-> rubs people the wrong way.
Yeah, y'd think so, wouldn't ya? :-) More than non-salaried.
FIG offered to compensate me for phone calls (I called around to many
chapters) but I never put in for those expenses. I also paid for my
membership each year, though this year I have applied for the Author
Recognition program for a free year's membership for published Forth
authors.
-> Furthermore, I was
-> surprised to see your kind offer to accept re-instatement as chapter
-> co-ordinator (it was an offer, right? You're not just going to say
-> no if the board re-instates you, are you?).
Absolutely I would accept. My only reservation would be
based on my experience that the Board never offers any direction
whatsover to the Chapter Coordinator. (Except for dismissing me :-) )
So in lieu of their "absentee leadership" which during my tenure
forced me to make up my own job and my own rules, I would probably
request a specific charter (which I would be willing to write myself
for their approval) and a small but specific budget for expenses.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/18/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 123 Fri Mar 15, 1991 JDHALL [John] at 00:01 PST This is another reason that this media (BBS) is inappropriate for anything other than pure technical discussions. I do not know how discussions such as these get so out of hand. It is probably because words on paper cannot carry the true emotional meanings intended. Since the intent is not accurate, misunderstandings arise, and the fact that it is made public and the public my misunderstand the sender and the receiver's understanding leads to counter-reaction and counter-clairifications and over-reactons! I am going to over-react, so to the Point: I, as the President of the Forth Interest Group and as a member of the Board of Directors, need and want to make this point loud and clear! ************************************************************* Jack Woehr and Public: Jack Woehr is not and has not been "guilty" of anything according to FIG. He has not done anything that would warrant anything close to a "hearing" by the FIG Board of Directors. In no way by any actions or inactions of FIG should one imply anything about the reputation or ability of Jack Woehr. Jack Woehr is a good guy and in his way is trying to make FIG better. He has stated many times that he likes and is enthusiastic about FIG and feels that FIG has performed services that have helped him. I thank him for his enthusiasm. ************************************************************* Actions that lead to this situation: Hearsay: Dennis Ruffer and Jack Woehr, on GEnie, discussed ways that Jack could help FIG improve it's declining membership. Since the last Chapter Coordinator, myself, chapters had not been surveyed and encouraged and Dennis suggested that Jack might like to help in this way. Firsthand knowledge: At a Board of Directors meeting at the FIG National Convention in Los Angeles, Nov 1988. Dennis Ruffer made a motion and I seconded the motion that the President appoint Jack Woehr as Chapter Coordinator and that Jack's effectiveness be reviewed in three months. The motion passed. The President, then Bob Reiling, appointed Jack Woehr as Chapter Coordinator. Analysis: According to the Bylaws the Board of Directors can create committees, however, in doing so give the functioning and governance of these committees to the President. This is not this situation. The Board of Directors did not create a committee or appoint anyone to a committee. The President can and does appoint committees and committee members and chairman. The position of Chapter Coordinator is the chairman of the chapters committee and was originally appointed by Bill Ragsdale, then President. I was the first Chapter Coordinator and my job was to contact potential chapters and register them with FIG. I also took on the special duties, directed by the Business Group, of reverifying the existence of the chapters and to look after, and report to the Business Group, any special needs of the chapters that FIG was able to provide. Firsthand knowledge, Early 1989: Because Jack Woehr, Chapter Coordinator, was interested in networks, and Jack felt, correctly, that getting the chapters on GEnie was a way of bringing the chapters closer to FIG, Jack was given a sysop account on GEnie with the address FIGCHAPTERS. He used it to encourage chapter participation. Because, I had been the previous Chapter Coordinator, in a private telephone conversation with Jack, I explained what I thought were the duties and limitations of the Chapter Coordinator. Firsthand knowledge, April 1990: Jack Woehr put a public notice on GEnie and the other national networks using the title FIGCHAPTERS calling for the resignation of the FIG Board of Directors and implying inactivity and negligence on the part of the Officers, Board of Directors, Business Group and other FIG volunteers and that the financial figures showed that FIG was "going-out-of- business". I, as a member of the Board of Directors and Treasurer, immediately sent Jack Woehr a private letter stating that I thought his statements were unjustified and only intended to be inflammatory, but as Jack Woehr it was his privilege to say anything that he wanted using his own account, however, as FIGCHAPTERS he should limit his discussions to chapter matters. I also made it clear to him that he was not an officer of FIG, the Chapter Coordinator was a committee chair appointed by the President, but using the FIGCHAPTERS account for his criticism gave other members the impression that he was an officer and was speaking for some faction of the FIG Officers. His reaction was immediate and obviously with out thought. He made my letter public and told me that he would continue to say whatever he felt and with whichever account that he happened to be using at the time. Observation: None of any of the frustrations, reasons or suggestions for change had been properly made known to the Board of Directors, the Officers or the FIG Business Group, to whom Jack was charged with reporting. Firsthand, Mid 1990: When the matter of Jack's public notice was brought to the FIG Business Group, the President, Bob Reiling, observing the disappointment of the Board Members, Officers, Business Group members and other volunteers, asked that Jack Woehr no longer receive the financial statements which he did not understand and had misused. Quote from the Business Meeting Minutes, 4/24/90: "John Hall reported increased mentions of the FIG Business group on GEnie. He reminded us that the intention was for it to be a technical forum. Some of this on-line discussion regarding FIG business has caused dissention and resentment toward FIG and may be inappropriate. Bob Reiling recommended that the SYSOPs steer discussions toward technical subjects." Hearsay: Dennis Ruffer, as lead SYSOP on GEnie and present at that business meeting, mistakenly assumed that Jack Woehr was fired a Chapter Coordinator and suspended Jack Woehr's use of the FIGCHAPTERS address pending a review a the Board of Directors meeting and conveyed the previous information to Jack Woehr. Firsthand, 11 May 1990, Board of Directors Meeting: The President, but not a board member, Bob Reiling, presented the background of what had transpired at the Business meeting and on GEnie as an explaination to the Board. The Board felt storngly enough that a motion was made and seconded by members of the Board that Jack Woehr be terminated as the Chapter Coordinator. The motion passed. Bob Reiling prepared and delivered a letter advising Jack Woehr that he was terminated as the Chapter Coordinator. Analysis: The Board, having the authority, preempted the President and ordered the termination of the Chapter Coordinator. ****************************************************** This is all that has officially transpired. Anything following these dates until this letter are matters of opinion and not official FIG actions. John D. Hall, President, Forth Interest Group. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/18/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 124 Sun Mar 17, 1991 B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad] at 10:49 EST Thank you, John, for clarifying the history of this saga and FIG's official position. I said in an earlier message that FIG may well have the authority to suspend a Chapter Coordinator without hearing, and if this is the case I wasn't objecting. (I've had to run volunteer organizations too.) My objection was that, once this action was taken, rather than simply say "yep, he was sacked," Dennis tried to deflect criticism by saying that Jack was terminated after a hearing. (Please note that the root of "hearing" is "to hear," implying that the subject of the hearing or his designated representative is present.) I suspect that this faux pas has made Dennis quite uncomfortable lately, to which end he still hasn't given me a yes or no answer on whether Jack got a hearing. Your reply has now set this straight. Come back, Dennis! We forgive you your slip of the keyboard! Allow me to disagree with one of your points, John: as a dutiful, paid-up (and intending to remain so!) FIG member here in the outer boondocks, I rely on GEnie to keep in touch with the Forth community and to remain informed. I would be VERY displeased if discussions of FIG business matters were blocked or even "steered away" from GEnie. This is why we have this "feedback" topic, no? - Brad Brad Rodriguez | brad%candice@maccs.uucp (God willing) B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie | brad%candice@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca "Shoes for industry!" | bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (archaic) ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
wmb@MITCH.ENG.SUN.COM (03/19/91)
> JDHALL [John] at 00:01 PST > This is another reason that this media (BBS) is inappropriate > for anything other than pure technical discussions. I do not > know how discussions such as these get so out of hand. John - Thanks very much for the detailed posting about the chapter coordinator thing. The information you supplied helped me a lot in understanding the truth. The distinctions you made between firsthand knowledge, secondhand information, and analysis were especially helpful. I think the reason this got out of hand is because information of this quality and detail was not made published sooner. My perception was that the FIG board was trying to keep quiet about the matter, in hopes that it would go away. Regardless of whether or not this is true, that is the perception that I got. Another problem that made the situation worse is the thing about Jax trying to run for office, and being rejected. Admittedly, he did not collect the required number of signatures, but I feel that he should have been nominated by the board anyway. It is very difficult to collect signatures from a geographically-diverse group of people. The fact that he was interested enough to even try is one of the best qualifications I can think of. Has anyone EVER succeeded in becoming a petition candidate for the FIG board? I realize that smooth sailing is not to be expected when jax is aboard, but I also think that a loud dissenting voice is one of the most valuable assets that any organization can have. Dissent and conflict have a most profound tendency to keep the truth out in the open. Mitch Bradley, wmb@Eng.Sun.COM
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/25/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 125 Sat Mar 23, 1991 ELLIOTT.C at 12:49 EST I've just gotten my bak 4Ds, and this will be the first of a series of not- quite-random remarks Feel free to point me in the direction of other cat's/top's. vol XII, #2, p.38, German text in right-hand column: all the umlaut vowels were just plain omitted. Here's an example of an acceptable substitute: "koennen" for "k<o-umlaut>"nnen". All the rest work that way. In print this one was "knnen". ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/25/91)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 126 Sat Mar 23, 1991
D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 19:51 EST
Thanks for the correction Elliott. I've forwarded it on to the Forth
Dimensions editor so he'll be sure to see it next time he is on. BTW, his
address is MARLIN.O so if he responds you will know who he is.
{B-{)> DaR
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/30/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 128 Mon Mar 25, 1991 ATFURMAN [Alan F.] at 23:49 PST Mitch Bradley writes: > I realize that smooth sailing is not to be expected when jax is aboard Jack's stance on the ANSForth committee has evolved from that of a critic to that of a staunch defender, overall. And he has become a refreshingly eloquent voice of entrepreneurship. Jax barx, but then he fetches your slippers. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/30/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 132 Wed Mar 27, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 22:14 EST Forth Interest Group P.O Box 8231 San Jose, CA 95155 (408) 277-0688 (408) 286-8988 FAX ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/30/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 135 Thu Mar 28, 1991 ATFURMAN [Alan F.] at 19:08 PST Phil Koopman writes: > After 5 years as a member of FIG...I have decided not to renew my > membership....As a disenfranchised, lowly FIG rank-and-file member I > can think of only one course of action to follow. Oh yeah? Well, I can think of another: get a debate going right here on ForthNet. State your objections and what you think should happen, and back it up by saying that you WILL take your money and your reputation in the Forth community and go home IF things do not get solved. This medium allows FIG members outside the range of the FIG business meetings held in the Bay Area to comminicate with the leadership, and to be counted as wanting to see a change. In other words, state your case and challenge fellow members who agree with you to Speak Up. Those who fail to use this medium are throwing the opportunity away. Jack Woehr tried to make up for this apathy by turning up the hysteria in his campaign for financial disclosure. Instead, let the leadership learn that the disaffection is real (people WILL quit) and they will realize that they could have worse problems on their hands (especially the financial kind). Gorbachev was not the first to adopt glasnost as a last resort, nor will he be the last... Your post in the "Feedback to the Forth Interest Group" topic on GEnie was message #130. This is less, on average, than one message per week in >3 years! Use it or lose it, people. Please consider staying in FIG for another year. Alan T. Furman Founding member, SIGForth ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne (055908)) (03/30/91)
>Oh yeah? Well, I can think of another: get a debate going right here on >ForthNet. State your objections and what you think should happen, and back it >up by saying that you WILL take your money and your reputation in the Forth >community and go home IF things do not get solved. > >This medium allows FIG members outside the range of the FIG business meetings >held in the Bay Area to comminicate with the leadership, and to be counted as >wanting to see a change. In other words, state your case and challenge fellow >members who agree with you to Speak Up. Those who fail to use this medium are >throwing the opportunity away. > >Jack Woehr tried to make up for this apathy by turning up the hysteria in his >campaign for financial disclosure. Instead, let the leadership learn that the >disaffection is real (people WILL quit) and they will realize that they could >have worse problems on their hands (especially the financial kind). Gorbachev >was not the first to adopt glasnost as a last resort, nor will he be the >last... OK, I'll think about cranking up some desire for disclosure. I'm one of those that DID send in my $30, BUT I included a note to whoever may be at the office that I'd like to see some improvements in the area of financial disclosure. I present as a GOOD example the report in SIGFORTH. They prepared a statement showing '90 Budget versus Actual versus Budget '91 (or maybe my dating's a little off...). They admitted that SOME of the numbers that they used to build the budgets were not terribly meaningful, and that some of the categorizations weren't great. Overall, I thought the report was VERY WELL DONE (and I speak from the experience of having spent some years in public accounting, and having prepared more sets of financial statements than I care to count. Hundreds too many, but that's another story...). They did a good job of showing that they want to be seen as both trustworthy and accountible for their spending. When did FIG last send a general financial report to its members? That's NOT a rhetorical question - I've been a member about three years, and haven't really seen any hard info. in that time. Was the last report in the '80s? Or when? <jax> may have acted a little too strongly in publicizing "doom and gloom," but that DID put the ball in FIG's court. FIG's board COULD have come out and shown that the fiscal situation IS ok. But the ONLY thing I've seen is the indirect information from the early renewal notice, that seems to imply some form of financial difficulties. I may be misinterpreting the renewal notice - but those that produced the notice SHOULD have thought about that possibility. I've heard rumour that SOME of the reason for avoiding reporting things is that the GENIE involvement required some sort of nondisclosure agreement about related revenues. That doesn't release FIG from its obligations vis a vis its OTHER activities. What does FORTH DIMENSIONS cost to produce? What are the impacts of the book/software sales? Is my money being well-spent? My '91 fees may be in, but '92 is certainly up in the air. I haven't been a member long enough to have gotten SERIOUSLY disaffected, but another year may bother me enough to consider witholding... -- Christopher Browne cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca University of Ottawa Master of System Science Program
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (03/31/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 136 Sat Mar 30, 1991 B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad] at 20:00 EST Alan Furman makes an excellent point...let's get some discussion going! It's clear that FIG needs to do some market research. So, in the spirit of helping FIG figure out what they're doing right, here's what I, a FIG member far from the Bay Area, get from FIG. 1. Forth Dimensions. I usually find one useful (i.e. advanced) article per issue, which is probably my average for most of the journals I receive. I suspect this is due to FD's desire to keep supporting Forth beginners -- a noble goal which I applaud, even if I don't personally benefit. 2. Local Chapter meetings. Granted, all our chapter gets from FIG is the permission to use the name, and a meeting notice in each FD. But these have both helped draw fellow travelers to our meetings. I'm not sure what umbrella we'd organize under if not for FIG... perhaps SIGForth. 3. GEnie. Out here in the Forth boonies, this is my major contact with the community at large. Again, it seems that FIG is just lending the name; but it's not clear we'd have this forum otherwise. 4. Mail order service. Since MVP has stopped advertising, FIG is my only reliable source of Forth books and materials. I may only use this service once a year, but when I do, it's certainly a benefit. Maybe this, and similar input from others, will help FIG decide where their resources should be directed. If FIG is doing other things, I'm certainly unaware of them. Are these four worth $46 per year to me? No, and yes. I don't think these services cost that much to provide. Certainly our chapter and GEnie cost FIG nothing. I would expect the mail order business to pay for itself. And my subscription to The Computer Journal -- the most comparable journal to FD in my library -- costs only $24 per year. But... I see FIG as the impetus behind these four services, without which they would not exist. I still view FIG as the nearest thing the Forth community has to a central focus. And I'm a sentimentalist -- I remember my early Forth days when FIG was a great boon. So for now, I'm remaining a member. Brad Rodriguez | brad%candice@maccs.uucp (God willing) B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie | brad%candice@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca "Shoes for industry!" | bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (archaic) ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (04/06/91)
Category 1, Topic 2 Message 142 Thu Apr 04, 1991 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 01:01 CST PK>After 5 years as a member of FIG and contributor to Forth PK>Dimensions, I have decided not to renew my membership. . Phil, congratulations on your new job. I hope you get to use Forth. . I enjoyed reading your recent postings about FIG and think you have some excellent points. (Though, if you'll rejoin when a complete financial statement is published in FD, how will you see it if you aren't a member?) I've objected to various things connected with FIG, including their losing members, indifference (perhaps 'hostility' and 'insanity' would be better terms) toward correcting chapter listings in FD, and the poor (in my opinion, with my limited knowledge of the facts) handling of JAX. There are two other things I should perhaps object to: lack of elections for a long time and lack of publishing financial statements. I think those last are legitimate complaints, but they don't bother me like the first three. . At times I have considered dropping my membership in protest. (As an aside, I think that should be of great interest to FIG management. If I, a dedicated enthusiastic Forther, am annoyed, shouldn't it worry them that many others would also be annoyed? Sure they can write me off as being illogical, so to hell with me. But even so, shouldn't they ask "gee, how many other illogicals are we also annoying?"?) . Here are why I have not dropped my membership: I enjoy FD, I love the FIG sponsored FORML conference at Asilomar, I like that FIG runs its mail-order bookstore, I like the FIG sponsored GEnie Forth Roundtable upon which I'm posting this note, I have some sympathy for the difficulties of getting anything done in a volunteer organization, and inertia. So far, these make up for the irritations. . I don't want to lose *you* as a FIG member. I hope the FIG management will *immediately* schedule that financial statement for the very next issue, and mail you an advance copy of the financial statement along with a promise that it will appear in the very next FD. . To FIG management: do you really want to lose a BYTE magazine author, Stack Machines book author, leader in Forth engine design, & academician with ties to industry (or is it industrialist with ties to academia?)? I hope you won't dissapoint me on this. . -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (04/16/91)
Category 1, Topic 2
Message 145 Mon Apr 15, 1991
ELLIOTT.C at 13:21 EDT
Messages before 1/10/91 have been uploaded to library 8 as FIGFB191.ARC.
[ If anyone would like a copy of one/more/all of these files, please
drop me a note at one of the addresses at the end of this message.
All binary files are UUencoded. Files are then split (if necessary)
into mailer-acceptable sized pieces and then mailed to you.
In order for me to answer your request, you must:
Include the line containing the file name. (so I know what you want.)
Include your email address in the _body_ of the message. You _must_
include an address *relative to* the InterNet or well known
UseNet site.
-dwp]
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (05/29/91)
Date: 05-26-91 (11:59) Number: 44 of 44 (Echo)
To: FRANK SERGEANT Refer#: NONE
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: FIG BOARD ELECTIONS Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
Thanx for your support, Frank! Got your letter the other day.
Will be making a posting or two more on this subject around the turn o'
the month.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp