ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/11/90)
Category 2, Topic 5
Message 181 Tue Jan 09, 1990
C.WEIMANN1 [Kong] at 21:26 EST
After years of reading about the forth language i finally have started to
actually do something with it. (F-PC was a great help in starting me) I have
however a problem with the F-PC file handling and any help would be greatly
appreciated. problem follows in F-PC source. \ fio.seq Christopher S.
Weimann 01/08/90 20:34:32.35 comment:
The following word [blankrec] only work the first time it is executed
comment;
anew fio.seq
create rbuf 2048 allot
1024 rbuf !
read-write
handle tofile
: blankrec ( --- )
" test.seq" ">$ tofile $>handle tofile
hopen
abort" Couldn't Open file!"
pad 1024 blank
pad 1024 tofile hwrite .
tofile
hclose ;
*p i suspect the hclose but can't figure out why it won't run twice. it seems
to work if the file is not closed and reopened but i can't belive that is a
limitation. What am i doing wrong?? thanks in advance
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Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'mayer@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Mayer Goldberg) (01/11/90)
All this talk about F-PC got me curious: Is F-PC in the public domain? If so, from where can I ftp it? Mayer Goldberg mayer@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/13/90)
Date: 01-11-90 (23:31) Number: 1553
To: C.WEIMANN1 [KONG] Refer#: 1550
From: BILL MCCARTHY Read: NO
Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS? HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
HOPEN resets R/W-MODE back to it's default value. So, the first
time you run your program the file is in READ-WRITE mode (as set
in FIO.SEQ) and works fine. However in subsequent runs, you
probably open the file in READ-ONLY mode (which is the FPC
default as shipped), then your program fails when it tries to
write to the file.
One solution is to place a READ-WRITE or a WRITE-ONLY before the
HOPEN. Another is set up your system to default to READ-WRITE
mode and forget about the modes:
READ-WRITE R/W-MODE =: R/W-DMODE SAVE-EXE
BTW Kong, your stack diagram for BLANKREC is incorrect since
HCLOSE returns a flag.
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Date: 01-12-90 (22:44) Number: 1556 (Echo) To: L. MERRICK Refer#: NONE From: ZAFAR ESSAK Read: NO Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS, HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Well, I'd suggest F-PC over F83. F-PC's roots afterall are F83. The editor will convert your block source to files if you want. You can have blocks on files and it would take an evening or two to put together a block editor if you really wanted to. The software floating point, from Kent Brothers (VP-Planner) has been provided through Jack Brown to run on F-PC. It's got lots of tools. Now if you're quite serious about blocks and/or simplicity you could look at PYGMY and that would only take a few hours to get acquainted with. So, how many have you got on your list now? --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01 NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/90)
Date: 01-18-90 (04:33) Number: 1564 (Echo) To: L.MERRICK Refer#: 1545 From: ARCHIE WARNOCK Read: NO Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS? HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE L>OK, dumb question of the day time. I've been programming in FORTH for L>years in the Z80 environment. (FORTH83 under UniFORTH.) Now I have a L>machine (read AT clone) and am unable to wend my way through the maze L>FORTH's for it. L> L>I actually USE floating point and I like an editor that I can fully L>customize. I'm used to writing code in block format. What is out the L>doesn't require 200 hours of construction to get running under MS-DOS? Uniforth for the PC. As a bonus, nearly all your source code will still work, too. --- ~ EZ 1.24 ~ The dreams of reason bring FORTH monsters. -- ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: 'uunet!willett!dwp' or 'willett!dwp@gateway.sei.cmu.edu'
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/05/90)
Date: 07-03-90 (13:43) Number: 1659 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: 1522 From: MATT GIWER Read: HAS REPLIES Subj: LEARNING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Hello. I am 14 and my father has told me about forth. I love the concept and would like to learn Forth. I am looking for Zendos and plain Forth for the IBM PC-XT. Any help? Date: 07-03-90 (16:56) Number: 1661 (Echo) To: MATT GIWER Refer#: 1659 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: LEARNING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE There are many public domain forth systems here for the downloading. A fairly simple one that is relatively close in many ways to Brodie's _Starting Forth_ is F83. A far more complete, much more complex forth (that is actually based way deep down on f83) is F-PC. ZEN is a small forth system, also available here. What is zendos? ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/11/90)
Date: 07-02-90 (21:44) Number: 3465 (Echo)
To: ALL Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: (N/A)
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Can anybody recommend a good Forth implementation for me
(and where I can get it)?
I'm new to Forth, and have the classic books--the Brodies,
ALL ABOUT FORTH, etc. I'm using a PC's Limited 286 with
PC-DOS 3.3 (VGA monitor if it matters).
I've checked the downloads in several places and can't
really figure out what's going on now, so if somebody could
recommend a nice Forth that I can get some real power out
of, I would really appreciate it.
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-04-90 (22:59) Number: 3466 (Echo) To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: NONE From: MICHAEL COLLINS Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Hrmm, there's a good shareware package Fifth (version 2.1). PCRelay:ACC -> #4 RelayNet (tm) 4.10a15 Advanced Computer Concepts BBS (914) 636-1455 NET/Mail : DC Information Exchange, MetroLink Int'l Hub. (202)433-6639 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/11/90)
Category 2, Topic 5
Message 191 Sat Jul 07, 1990
GARY-S at 08:19 EDT
To: CINDY BARTORILLO and MICHAEL COLLINS
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER
In a message on relaynet Michael Collins responds to an enquiry from
Cindy Bartorillo regarding a good Forth to learn from:
>Hrmm, there's a good shareware package Fifth (version 2.1).
I absolutely can not agree with this advice. Fifth is deliberately designed
to hide the Forth internals. It was done so to give Forth tools to those
who had no desire to learn Forth.
Cindy states she wants a kernel that will enable her to 'learn Forth'. I
would strongly recommend Frank Sergeant's Pygmy. Pygmy is a shareware Forth
that even has help for those who are using 'Starting Forth' as their text.
It is also a clean, open, minimal implementation which is exactly what is
needed for a novice wanting to understand Forth. I have long maintained you
can not hope to understand Forth without an understanding of the mechanics.
Pygmy will grant Cindy (and others in a start-up mode) that 'hands-on'
without seeming overpowering.
AND Frank is a nice guy who never hesitates to provide support to struggling
Pygmy users.
Gary
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Date: 07-05-90 (15:51) Number: 1662 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: 1545 From: MATTHIAS GIWER Read: (N/A) Subj: LEARING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Hello. I am looking for a total begginers forth package(read PD). Very little exp. in programming,but I wish to learn Forth. I have a MS-DOS 3.2,XT-Clone. What would be the "best" package? Date: 07-06-90 (22:55) Number: 1663 (Echo) To: MATTHIAS GIWER Refer#: 1662 From: JERRY SHIFRIN Read: 07-07-90 (11:52) Subj: LEARING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE MG>Hello. I am looking for a total begginers forth package(read PD). Very Check out Tom Zimmer's public domain Forth-83 -- download FPC35-1.ZIP thru FPC35-5.ZIP. [Also available on WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL PD1:<MSDOS.FORTH> --dwp] --- ~ EZ 1.30 ~ Date: 07-07-90 (11:48) Number: 1664 (Echo) To: JERRY SHIFRIN Refer#: 1663 From: MATTHIAS GIWER Read: NO Subj: LEARING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Thanks! I will. Date: 07-07-90 (11:53) Number: 1665 (Echo) To: STEVE PALINCSAR Refer#: 1661 From: MATTHIAS GIWER Read: NO Subj: LEARNING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I think I mean,a Forth DOS package. And leave mail to Matthias Giwer,as my dad(matt) does not call here. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/11/90)
Date: 07-08-90 (11:26) Number: 1666 (Echo) To: MATTHIAS GIWER Refer#: 1665 From: DOJUN YOSHIKAMI Read: NO Subj: LEARNING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE You might try reading some of the bulletin listings describing the various highlights and lowlights of the various forth packages in existance (it may be a bitty bit out of date by now). A bit of warning on F-PC, it tends to be big! F83 although older, is much smaller, and a bit more brodie like. I personally would recommend getting familiar iwth f83 and once you have the fundimentals down then get F-PC (which is A BIG package but has a lot of nifty stuff in it). N.b. When the ANSI standard forth comes out, it would probably be a goood idea to become familiar with that. There is still a goodly amount of interesting ideas going into it (not to mention some battles too!) dy ;-) (By the way, one of the best ways to learn forth is to write a forth interpreter of your own. It's not too hard to do at all, and well worth the time. You might want to snag a copy of kelly and spies's book _Forth: A Text and Reference_; Either maryland book exch or reiter's technical books has a copy , or if neither does, Fig has it. K&S cover the innards, particularly in the last chapter, in greater depth than brodie, and they give enough information to enable someone to code a forth interpreter from scratch, given they have enough energy to fight with an assembler in the early stages.) (Also by the way, make sure you understand what CREATE and DOES> accomplish. Has to do with the subject of Binding times. [let me know if this is confusing]) ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/11/90)
Date: 07-06-90 (23:25) Number: 3471 (Echo)
To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: 3465
From: CHRIS WATERS Read: NO
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
CB: Can anybody recommend a good Forth implementation for me
CB: (and where I can get it)?
Hi Cindy,
Wow, a name I recognise from RIME, and I'm calling a MetroLink Hub.
Does that mean that this conference is shared with RIME as well as GENIE
and ForthNet? Let's get some discussion going on FORTH!! Maybe we'll
embarrass all those Genie people who seem to think the world revolves
around Genie!
Anyway, to answer your question, I use the PD Laxen & Perry Forth
system which is very well done. It's 83-standard, and has lots of good
tools, including multi-tasking, on-line help (of a sort), and more.
Good for a beginner, and has COMPLETE source code so it can be useful
even to an old Forth hack like myself. The latest version is 2.18. The
file should be called something like F83218.ZIP (Nice descriptive name,
eh?). I've heard some other systems recommended, but haven't tried
them. This one has limited file access but is quite powerful, and as
easy to use as any Forth system I've seen.
[A version of F83 is also available on WSMR-SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL under
PD1:<MSDOS.FORTH> --dwp]
If you can't find the file, maybe I can try to arrange a file
transfer through RIME somehow. I'm not a sysop, but surely we can work
something out. David Fox (who I've seen on several RIME conferences)
has mentioned a couple of other Forth systems, you might want to ask
him about it too. Haven't got the Node ID handy, but I'll look for it.
I've been using Forth for about 12 years. I was a VERY early member
of the Forth Interest Group (I still have my original issue #1 of their
magazine 'Forth Dimensions'). My advice is to jump in and play with the
system, and then ask if you have questions. That's how I learned. I
was fortunate enough to have an excellent tutor back in the '70s (John
James, the author of the PDP-11 Fig-Forth), but he mostly answered
questions when I got stuck. I'll be glad to answer any questions you
might have and help pass the torch along.
Good luck, and welcome to the strange and exciting world of Forth.
I don't have a mailbox here (this isn't a RIME node), but my RIME
address is THECHAIR, and I can be reached through the Programming
conference there. (And *one* of these days I'll send in my RIME
directory entry - once I get a little more settled in.) :)
Chris {R:-O}{at THECHAIR}
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Date: 07-08-90 (23:32) Number: 1667 (Echo) To: DOJUN YOSHIKAMI Refer#: 1666 From: MATTHIAS GIWER Read: NO Subj: LEARNING FORTH Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I have not got all of FPC-whatever yet. It IS HUGE. And,ML has never really got me into programming. I mean,it is kinda nice having that kind of control,but Forth give's you the same type of control. And I am in love with the idea of forth. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/14/90)
Date: 07-10-90 (22:36) Number: 3491 (Echo)
To: CHRIS WATERS Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: NO
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Chris,
As far as a RIME Send of F83218.ZIP--everything is clear on
this end. BAUDLINE is my node id and our hub doesn't get
upset about extra traffic, so all that's necessary is a nice
Sysop on your end to Send the file. I would appreciate it.
I got into Forth about 5-7 years ago, just enough to become
completely sold on it. It seemed like the perfect compromise
between a high-level language and assembly. The only problem
was that Forth didn't seem to get along too well with
MS-DOS. I mean, I realize that Forth is meant to be its own
system, but most of us can't afford to leave the rest of the
world that far behind. As you mentioned, file access was a
major stumbling block to serious programming with Forth on
MS-DOS. Ideally I'd like to try out several Forths to see
where we've gotten so far.
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-10-90 (23:30) Number: 3493 (Echo)
To: GARY SMITH Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: NO
Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS? HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Gary,
Thanks for your comments on Fifth---very interesting. It's
also a coincidence that I just recently picked up PYGMY.ZIP
from somewhere. At first glance Pygmy seemed to be awfully
minimalist, but you make a very good argument for starting
with something like that and working my way up. I'll break
Pygmy out tomorrow and take it for a test drive. (I'd still
like to take a look at F83 and Fifth, though, and any other
versatile Forths out there.)
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-13-90 (08:43) Number: 3495 (Echo) To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: 3491 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Most forths for the PC these days (and that means surely in the last five or six years) include full support for the operating system, files, etc. There are several public domain forths you can try that will offer these qualities, including F83, F-PC (for a really big, complete system), and Pygmy. None of these act as their own operating system; all use DOS. Excellent commercial systems that offer full support for DOS, files, etc., include LMI's PC-Forth and HS/Forth from Harvard Softworks. If your file transfer via the network doesn't work out (and I am correct in believing you are calling from Frederick MD) you can dial into the East Coast Forth BBS at (703) 442-8695 and download files direct. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/20/90)
Date: 07-15-90 (19:20) Number: 3524 (Echo)
To: STEVE PALINCSAR Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: 07-18-90 (08:27)
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
SP> you can dial into the East Coast Forth BBS at (703)
SP>442-8695 and download files direct.
I've been meaning to check in with Jerry for some time. (By
the way, thanks again Jerry for the F-PC. I sent you a thank
you, but now I've gone all over paranoid about whether I
spelled your name right.) I just added it to my phonebook.
You mentioned commercial packages: LMI's PC-Forth and
HS/Forth. A name that I see frequently is PolyForth. Where
does that stand in the pantheon? And I was just prowling
GEnie and noticed another somethingorother called Abundance.
Does anyone know anything about this one? (Meanwhile, I'm
still busy exploring F-PC. As you said, it's big.)
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-18-90 (08:27) Number: 3532 (Echo) To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: 3524 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Polyforth is a top professional system. It's quite expensive, and --I'm sure even the Polyforth employees you see here will agree-- not a system for an amateur or beginner. Where HS/Forth and LMI products cost up to about $500 or so (depending on levels & options) PolyForth is in the thousands. OTOH, along with that comes some fantastic support, including on-site training, from what I've heard. Polyforth has come late to the DOS-support view, having been a staunch advocate of forth-as-operating-system. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/23/90)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 148 Thu Jul 19, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 23:30 EDT Re: CINDY BARTORILLO > A name that I see frequently is PolyForth. Where > does that stand in the pantheon? pF is the product of FORTH, Incorporated, the company started back in '73 by Chuck Moore. Chuck has since moved on, but we are still producing Forth. polyFORTH ISD-4 is the latest in our long line of products which have their roots in the original miniForth. pF is neither 83 nor 79 standard, but its roots are the same as those from which FIG Forth grew. We are hoping to bring them all back together again with the ANSI standard. Its best feature is that it is about the purest Forth you can buy. Its worst feature is its price, over $3K, which doesn't buy you much more than what F-PC give you for free. However, if you want to do serious work with Forth, IMHO polyFORTH is the way to go. Of course I'm biased, I work for them. > And I was just prowling > GEnie and noticed another somethingorother called Abundance. > Does anyone know anything about this one? If you think F-PC is big, you obviously haven't seen Abundance and the BBL Forth that goes with it. First, find yourself at least 5 Megabytes on your hard disk, then start downloading. If you are interested in databases, it is the best you will find in the public domain. It has many features that some comercial packages are lacking, and it comes with complete source code. The BBL Forth that goes along with it is a full 32 bit Forth written for MSDOS machines. Once you have figured out the basics of more traditional Forths, BBL is worth the comparison. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/23/90)
Date: 07-16-90 (21:02) Number: 3536 (Echo)
To: MICHAEL HAM Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: NO
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
A Forth that works with Windows? I am really impressed (of
course, I hear that Windows has become much friendlier since
I lost patience last year). Way back when, in Forth MS-DOS
pre-history, the expression "DOS interface" never came up.
Whenever you had the nerve to mention that perhaps a few
extra file manipulation features might be nice, you got a
lecture on the limitations of MS-DOS. Anyway, I'm glad that
Forth has finally been written "down" to the non-wizards
like me.
^*^ Cindy
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Category 2, Topic 5 Message 151 Fri Jul 20, 1990 FORBES [Bob Harrison] at 19:59 PDT I just started in Forth myself, 72 sleepless hours ago :-) I downloaded the F-PC package first and was very suprised, in a good way, at all it could do. However, I finally had to give up on it for a while because it was just too big for me to follow. I ended downloading F83 also. This was more my size to start with. I don't feel so overwhelmed with everything. I was even able to track down a bug that caused an erroneous ID tag to be applied to blocks when the NEW editor was invoked. It only took a hour or so and I learned a lot of Forth reading the source for that. If I'd had to do the same in F-PC, I'd still be wading through code. The upshot is that I recompiled the kernel with the fix and everything worked perfect (well, almost, there are few other things I'm going to change as soon as I know how :-) Forth is simply the most fun I've had with a programming language, ever. Bob ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/25/90)
Date: 07-23-90 (06:36) Number: 3550 (Echo) To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: 3548 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE You don't have to give up "programming down to the bare metal" if you use a forth that runs on top of DOS -- and you certainly don't have to give it up for the sake of forth standards. I use HS/Forth, which makes full use of both DOS & BIOS calls. Should you wish to write to disks directly (that is, without using DOS file functions) there's a short extension file to load that lets you do it. And you can always write directly to specific memory locations, ports, etc. Fact is, if you know how to do it with assembler, you can write a forth word to do it... and then build bigger forth words on top of that to use it. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/28/90)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 156 Thu Jul 26, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 22:51 EDT Re: CINDY BARTORILLO > encouraging to hear that there's enough big-time interest in > Forth to keep your company going Unfortunately, we are not kept going by selling Forth. No Forth vendor really is. We pay the bills by selling custom consulting work, and work on the language so that we can sell liscenses to our clients. Unfortunate, but true. > we never had a secret handshake! Nor a song! :-( > F-PC is beautifully easy to use, but the .SEQ files instead > of the block stuff has thrown me a curve. There are advantages to both methods, but I agree with you that I prefer block files because that is what I am used to. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/28/90)
Date: 07-23-90 (21:35) Number: 3565 (Echo)
To: RAY DUNCAN Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: NO
Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
RD>I guess our advertising hasn't been very effective.
Please don't go by my lack of information--I'm just a lone
programmer operating in isolation, and (let's face it) Forth
isn't the most popular language in the world. When someone
is interested in Pascal, you can always find loads of people
to demonstrate their favorite version and help you over the
rough spots. (You can't swing a dead PROCEDURE without
hitting a Turbo Pascal programmer.) But when you mention
that you're interested in Forth, people just give you a
glazed-over smile and ask for the bean dip.
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-23-90 (22:18) Number: 3566 (Echo)
To: FORBES [BOB HARRISON] Refer#: NONE
From: CINDY BARTORILLO Read: NO
Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS? HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
F[H>Forth is simply the most fun I've had with a programming
F[H>language, ever.
I know what you mean, Bob. It's like the fun I first had
with Assembly--Forth has got that same feel of power,
without being so tiresome. You're right about F-PC not
giving away too many secrets, but it sure neat to play
around with the graphics commands and the sequential file
handling. Like you, I have a more bare-bones backup Forth
for when things aren't going well and I need some hard
answers (I use Pygmy).
^*^ Cindy
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Date: 07-24-90 (14:21) Number: 3567 (Echo) To: RAY DUNCAN Refer#: NONE From: IAN WATTERS Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE RDpWe started out with Z-80 FORTH which ran under CP/M 2.2 LMI's Z-80 Fig-FORTH contained one of my favourite bugs -- in one of the words (when reporting a disk error?) what should be the *word* .FCB (print the file name in a file control block) is compiled as the *hex number* .FCB ie double length 4043 decimal. Ooops. The joys of meta-compilation? Ian --- ~ EZ 1.30 ~ PCRelay:IBBSNET -> #143 RelayNet (tm) 4.10a15 <Islington BBS> London UK +44 71 704 0760 NET/Mail : DC Information Exchange, MetroLink Int'l Hub. (202)433-6639 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/29/90)
Date: 07-26-90 (22:01) Number: 3576 (Echo)
To: CINDY BARTORILLO Refer#: 3566
From: CHRIS WATERS Read: NO
Subj: FOR US BEGINNERS? HELP Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
CB: handling. Like you, I have a more bare-bones backup Forth
CB: for when things aren't going well and I need some hard
CB: answers (I use Pygmy).
Hi Cindy,
Our local Hub is having difficulties, so I don't think F83 is on its
way. Perhaps you can find a copy on a local Forth board. In any case,
I would still recommend this system as a good alternate. It has a lot
more code examples, and is probably easier for a Forth newcomer. Pygmy
still has *me* a little mystified, even with years of Forth experience.
Chris
-> MegaMail(tm) #609:~ my other computer is a HAL 9000
1.20
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Date: 07-27-90 (22:37) Number: 3577 (Echo) To: IAN WATTERS Refer#: 3567 From: RAY DUNCAN Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE The .FCB bug was one of my favorites too... I finally learned a basic survival tactic which was to avoid creating labels containing "dots" that could accidentally be construed as hex double numbers. NET/Mail : LMI Forth Board, Los Angeles, CA (213) 306-3530 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (07/31/90)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 162 Mon Jul 30, 1990 F.SERGEANT [Frank] at 00:47 CDT To Chris Waters (of xCFB, I think) >Pygmy still has *me* a little mystified, even with years of Forth >experience. I am in the process of revising Pygmy in anticipation of releasing version 1.3. I would appreciate it if you would post or mail (809 W. San Antonio St., San Marcos, TX 78666) details of what mystifies you, what would have made it easier for you to feel oriented and in control, what you object to or would prefer, etc. about Pygmy Forth. The more specifics, including underlying reasoning, the better. I am interested in such info from everyone else as well. -- Frank ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
dwp@willett.UUCP (Doug Philips) (07/31/90)
In <1432.UUL1.3#5129@willett.UUCP>, F.SERGEANT [Frank] writes: > 1.3. I would appreciate it if you would post or mail (809 W. San Antonio > St., San Marcos, TX 78666) details of what mystifies you, what would have > made it easier for you to feel oriented and in control, what you object to or > would prefer, etc. about Pygmy Forth. The more specifics, including > underlying reasoning, the better. I am interested in such info from everyone > else as well. Ok, I'll give it a go. The thing that confused me the most was that Pygmy was based on cmForth, but I didn't know cmForth! I managed to pick up what I wanted to know with multiple scans of the sources (hard copy mostly). It seemed that I had to browse several files to find what I thought should have been in one place. (I didn't take notes at the time, so I can't supply explicit references here). The glossary seemed to be haphazardly done. I like the idea of a glossary, but ended up searching the source code for what I wanted to know. Enough bad vibes, onto what I liked. As a C programmer I found PUSH and POP and \ nicer than their alternatives. I like FOR NEXT even though I think the generality of DO LOOP should be more convenient. I really like the vocabulary approach over IMMEDIATE. One of the first things I did was to didle with the list of files to open and meta-compile! (It was easier than I thought it would be). I liked the tech notes, but I got the feeling that they weren't complete. I like the way files and block numbers work. Seems very convenient to me. Its been a long time (over 4months) since I first looked at Pygmy. I like it, but haven't done anything with it yet. If/When I go back to it, it will be like starting fresh. I'll know now to keep better track of the things you want. -Doug --- Preferred: willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu OR ...!sei!willett!dwp Daily: ...!{uunet,nfsun}!willett!dwp [in a pinch: dwp@vega.fac.cs.cmu.edu]
ForthNet@willett.UUCP (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (08/02/90)
Date: 07-30-90 (19:28) Number: 3585 (Echo) To: RAY DUNCAN Refer#: 3577 From: ZAFAR ESSAK Read: NO Subj: HELP FOR BEGINNER Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > The .FCB bug was one of my favorites too... I finally learned a basic > survival tactic which was to avoid creating labels containing "dots" > that could accidentally be construed as hex double numbers. Or for that matter ANY names that can be construed as hex numbers, such as ED. Although using a preceeding character to set the base to hex, eg. $ABC, and insisting that base be left in decimal could be a way around these kinds of problems. I have tried using >ED as a replacement for the abbreviation ED, for those times when typing EDITOR seems too much. --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01 NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: uunet!willett!dwp or willett!dwp@hobbes.cert.sei.cmu.edu
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/09/90)
Date: 11-06-90 (20:26) Number: 162 of 163 To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: BRAD KOSOWAN Read: (N/A) Subj: FIRST GLANCE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) I just downloaded a copy of forth from a local board and I'm interested in learning what to do with it now ????!!!! Any one have any suggestions on a good begineers guide ??? I would appreciate any help. I mess around with Quick-Basic, and a little C now and then but never really tried or studied forth. PCRelay:ICC -> #337 4.10 Data Central BBS (317)543-2007 18 Nodes! <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (11/09/90)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 167 Fri Nov 09, 1990 GARY-S at 06:25 EST From: BRAD KOSOWAN writes: Subj: FIRST GLANCE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) >Any one have any suggestions on a good begineers guide ??? >I would appreciate any help. Sit down in front of a terminal (computer) with Forth running, and read AND do _all_ the exercises in 'Staring Forth' by Leo Brodie (Prentice Hall) or 'Forth: A Text and Reference' by Kelly/Spies (Prentice Hall). If you really get in a jam from which you can find no way to extricate yourself, save the OFF switch ask questions on whatever node you posted this question on. You will probably crash the system a time or two. It isn't the end of the world. Learn from the experience, and enjoy. You will be learning Forth and a lot more about your computer than you thought possible. One request: When you find it necessary to ask questions provide LOTS of information. <stack underflow> is NOT a LOT of information. I was trying to divide a variable named foo_bar by 9999 and got a <stack underflow> error is only fair. : foo_bar code here ; foo_bar / 999 . <stack underflow> ..... will get you help. ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
noel.cunnington@f1000.n711.fido.oz.au (Noel Cunnington) (11/24/90)
Original to: forthnet@willett.pgh.pa.us In a message to All on 9 Nov 1990, you wrote: From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) * Origin: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (via ACSgate 8:7802/603) .ORIGIN: 302/991 As you can see unless I know what the above means I have no idea where you are on the planet. Still at the North Sydney College of Technical Education there is a man named Fisal Ramadam in the School of Electronics ( I think) runs a course on Forth using F83. I have all the course notes and bits of pieces also a copy of F-PC version 2. Try that if you're in Sydney. If not buy some books or get in contact with the FIG in California, they have an extensive book list and products for people like you and me. Cheers NJC GT302/009 --- PreMail GT Gate v0.91 * Origin: From GTnet via the Black Hole Star Gate! (3:711/1000)
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/10/90)
Date: 12-07-90 (12:29) Number: 413 of 417 (Echo) To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: DALE SMITH Read: HAS REPLIES Subj: GOTO-LESS PROGRAMMING Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) I'm a new forth programmer, no flames please! ;-) What's the best way to code things like xfer protocols that have goto's jumping from a case inside a while loop to some things back before the loop started? Or go to one of several error exits? There is lots of stuff like that in the sz/rz programs. State machines? How do you get back out of some deeply nested things like longjmp() and setjmp() do from C? Thanks, dale NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/10/90)
Date: 12-07-90 (14:03) Number: 414 of 417 (Echo)
To: DALE SMITH Refer#: 2126
From: JACK WOEHR Read: NO
Subj: GOTO-LESS PROGRAMMING Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+)
Dale --- lots of people will jump right in with this topic, so
let me be the first :-)
Examine Forth constructs such as:
EXIT
LEAVE
?LEAVE
UNLOOP
for a start.
=jax=
NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
<<<>>>
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Category 2, Topic 5 Message 170 Sun Dec 09, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 23:10 EST Re: DALE SMITH > What's the best way to code things like xfer protocols that have > goto's jumping from a case inside a while loop to some things > back before the loop started? Or go to one of several error > exits? There is lots of stuff like that in the sz/rz programs. Ah, glad to see someone else is going to try to tackle the zmodem protocol. I've tried, and gave up half way in the middle. Well, I didn't actually give up, I still have the code, but I haven't had time to ever finish it. In the process of trying to code Chuck Forsberg's C code (not the most structured stuff that I ever saw), I wrote up the following: ( Simple GOTO in Forth ) CODE @R ( - a P: Fetch return stack pointer ) R PUSH NEXT CODE !R ( a - P: Store return stack pointer ) R POP NEXT : LABEL ( name \ - P: Define a label to goto ) 2VARIABLE ;CODE R 1 CELLS W) MOV I 2 CELLS W) MOV NEXT : goto ( - P: Return to the label that is compiled next ) R> @ ( cfa of label ) CELL+ 2@ !R >R ; : exit ( - P: Exit from where label is used ) R> @ ( cfa of label ) CELL+ @ !R ; EXIT LABEL loop ( - P: Looping label for test ) : test ( n - P: A test for these features ) loop DUP . 1- ?DUP IF goto loop THEN exit loop 1 ABORT" Didn't work" ; It is written for polyFORTH, but might be able to be translated to something else. In pF assembler code, R is the return stack pointer register and W points to the CFA of the word being executed. This allowed me to get close. I was building it on top of my PFMODEM stuff that is in the library. Let me know if you want some incomplete source code, and I will upload it. However, it sure isn't anywhere close to being something that works yet. I don't even think I ever got the transfer side of it coded, but you are welcome to whatever I've got. Hope to see what you can come up with. DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/13/90)
Category 2, Topic 5
Message 172 Wed Dec 12, 1990
J.SANFORD1 at 20:32 MST
The included code is submitted as if it were a homework assignment; "
On one screen or less show a usefull calculation & try to find a happy
ballance between 'stack pumping' & 'too many variables'" \ Inflation
Calculator : R% 10 */ 5 + 10 / ; (S n1 n2 -- n3) ( rounded percent )
variable amount variable rate : calc cr - 0 do amount @ rate @ R%
amount +! loop amount @ . ; : ask cr ." inflation rate ? i.e. 5
rate ! " cr
." amount ? i.e. 100 amount ! " cr
." stack -- date2 date1 i.e. 1990 1940 later first " cr
( the original amount is from earlyer date1 )
( the result is the inflation adjusted equivalent for date2 ) This is the
result of reading "Beginners use too many variables" in FD & then picking up
the concept of "excessive stack pumping" I had been trying to put All the
numbers on the stack. I couldn't because amount changes in the loop and rate
dosen't.
The word [ ask ] is a crude way to avoid real numeric input words, which
I haven't studied yet. If it isn't obvious, you type ask to remind yourself
where to put which numbers. Then type calc.
There is 1 cute little bug that I know of.
I am putting this here to be picked apart and put back in different ways.
One of the amusing features of Forth is that that there are so many ways to do
something that never occure to me, yet seem perfectly obvious when someone
else shows me. thanks later - jon - *S
E*******
B*s
C C
E*S
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Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwpForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (12/14/90)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 173 Thu Dec 13, 1990 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 21:15 EST Re: J.SANFORD1 Jon, type NAMe at the BB prompt so that your first name will always appear in your messages. Also watch the horrors of the GEnie message formatter. Put a space before every line that you do not want to get messed up. Here is (I believe) what your code was supposed to look like: > \ Inflation Calculator > : R% 10 */ 5 + 10 / ; (S n1 n2 -- n3) ( rounded percent ) > variable amount variable rate > : calc cr - 0 do amount @ rate @ R% amount +! loop > amount @ . ; > : ask cr ." inflation rate ? i.e. 5 rate ! " > cr ." amount ? i.e. 100 amount ! " > cr ." stack -- date2 date1 i.e. 1990 1940 later first " > cr ( the original amount is from earlyer date1 ) > ( the result is the inflation adjusted equivalent for date2 ) I assume that the final ; got lost in the upload, otherwise I don't see a bug (unless you don't like the way the calculation works). If I ignore the calculation, let me suggest a couple of changes: Your R% and ask look ok, so let's concentrate on calc . The following eliminates the variables and does everything on the stack: : calc ( rate amount years - cost) 0 DO 2DUP SWAP R% + LOOP SWAP DROP ; If you really want the dated input and display, define this: : .calc ( r a l f) - calc cr . ; KISS! DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett through a semi-automated process. Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/12/91)
Date: 01-07-91 (23:37) Number: 807 of 807 To: GARY SMITH Refer#: NONE From: ROGER LEE Read: NO Subj: The Stupid Question Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) You've all seen the question in the conferences. The new guy who's just dabbling in the particular subject covered. Well, here I am. And here goes: Forth, as I understand it, is highly extensible. Extensible to the point that you can basically re-write the language every time you use it. Bearing this in mind, how can ANSI set a standard on a language that changes on a daily basis? No flames, please....I've had a hard day. (and Gary....this message is to you because you and Chris Waters are the only names I recognize here.....it's an open question!) Thanks one and all..... --- -> MegaMail v2.1a #782:There's at least 1 fool in every married couple. --- * SFUTI 3.01 / (Pssssst.....Mikey's really not 29 anymore....) PCRelay:THECAVE -> #559 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 The Cave (408)259-8098 12/24/96/19.2 HST/DS <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/13/91)
Date: 01-09-91 (06:15) Number: 824 of 834 To: ROGER LEE Refer#: 807 From: CHRIS WATERS Read: NO Subj: The Stupid Question Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) RL.Forth, as I understand it, is highly extensible. Extensible to RL.the point that you can basically re-write the language every time RL.you use it. Bearing this in mind, how can ANSI set a standard on Ok, I'm responsible for introducing you to Forth, I guess I should try to field this one. All of the Forth standards (FORTH-79, FORTH-83, and ANSI draft) specify wordsets that must be present for a Forth system to be compliant. Your application is free to redefine words in these wordsets, but then it will not be a compliant application. If others here will forgive me for making an analogy based on another recently ANSI-standardized language, it's like the ANSI-standard for C library routines. An application is free to define its own version of the library routines, but all the standard routines must be present for a compiler to be labeled compliant. If you think of Forth as a language without keywords, it may make this easier to understand. Every word in the Forth dictionary is, in essence, like a C library function. You can redefine them, but you are then stepping outside the boundaries of the standard. If you redefine the standard word '+' to concatenate two strings, your application could not be labeled standard (under any Forth standard). Unless your redefinition of '+' was in a separate STRINGS vocabulary. BTW, how far have you gotten in that copy of Starting Forth I loaned you? --- MM 2.1a *pick up on my weasel, she is so divine --- * SFUTI 3.01 / (Pssssst.....Mikey's really not 29 anymore....) PCRelay:THECAVE -> #559 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 The Cave (408)259-8098 12/24/96/19.2 HST/DS <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/14/91)
Date: 01-10-91 (12:15) Number: 845 of 846 To: ROGER LEE Refer#: NONE From: IAN WATTERS Read: NO Subj: The Stupid Question Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) RL]how can ANSI set a standard on a language that changes on a daily basis? Because they were asked to :-) Standards are there to allow portability of code. They're always going to be somewhat behind the times and there will always be non-standard systems, but they do provide a very useful basis (no pun intended) to work from. Aside from that, the distribution of an ANSI standard brings a certain status to the Forth community. //\/\/ --- ~ SLMR 1.05 #109 ~ Maids never die - they just return to dust. PCRelay:OLEF -> #181 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 O.L.E.F.1. London ->OLEF (+44) 81-882-9808 <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (01/20/91)
Date: 01-13-91 (22:03) Number: 879 of 891 (Echo) To: ROGER LEE Refer#: 807 From: STEVE WHEELER Read: NO Subj: THE STUPID QUESTION Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: FORTH (58) Read Type: GENERAL (+) Things built from wood and metal parts can be considered an "extensible" set of items, but carpenters and mechanics would be in real trouble if 2x4s, 10-penny nails, bolt threads and head shapes and sizes, etc. weren't standardized. The point of standardization is not to constrain what can be done with Forth, but to provide a common set of construction materials. I'm looking forward to it. How far could you drive if each state required different sized wheels, differently-shaped steering apparatus, and a different shifting pattern in automobiles and trucks. Sure, you could learn each states version, but isn't it easier when you have a common set of expected features? - Wheels NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth! <<<>>> ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You cannot Reply to the author using email. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp
ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) (06/16/91)
Category 2, Topic 5 Message 56 Sun Jun 16, 1991 D.RUFFER [Dennis] at 01:18 EDT Re: KX10LYC0@TWNITRI1.BITNET > FCB unavailable > Abort, Fail? Hmmm, strange error message. FCB means File Control Block in F83 lingo (ans elsewhere). I'd suspect that either it can't file the files, or it has run out of file handles. In the first case, Jax's suggestion of putting them on drive A may help. In the second, put a line with FILES=20 into your CONFIG.SYS and see if that helps. If you don't have such a file, then you are probably getting bit by the excesses of DOS' default of 8 handles. I'm suprised you haven't had to "fix" it for other programs already. {B-{)> DaR ----- This message came from GEnie via willett. You *cannot* reply to the author using e-mail. Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, etc.). Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us _or_ uunet!willett!dwp