frobozz@well.sf.ca.us (Jordan Bortz) (05/09/90)
Well, here's my two cents worth: I've used ParcPlace Smalltalk Extensively, and also used Smalltalk/V and Smalltalk/V Mac.....my comments are: 1) The Digitalk products tend to be incompatible with each other across environments, which is annoying. ParcPlace is very compatible across environments. 2) ParcPlace's compiler is much faster. 3) ParcPlace supports the Binary Object Streaming Service. 4) ParcPlace' class browser supports protocols: Digitalk does not; this makes it hard to just file in code across the two. 5) Parc Place has categories and projects. 6) The ParcPlace toolbox is more complete and better implemented. 7) The MVC system has been ripped out and replaced with the Pane system in Smalltalk/V. This is a pain indeed, and makes it hard to port apps between ps and v. 8) Digitalk is cheaper. (marginally, these days!) 9) Digitalk Mac looks like Mac, etc.... This is not necessarily an advantage. The Mac user-interface is not the end-all be all; having applications write into the menu bar, rather than having their own menus is unnatural. The OS/2 windowing system is disgusting to look at; it is also bizzare: To Change the LIST Font, you select a MENU in the CLOSE BOX??? Only Microsoft would think of that! 10) Digitalk runs on OS/2, and PS doesn't. (People who use OS/2 deserve what they get, in my opinion!) OS2 := CP/M for 1990. How about CP/2? 11) Digitalk has native code compiler for OS/2 12) Smalltalk/V has better access to Mac Toolbox. 13) Digitalk has a built-in unification algorithm to do prolog....But is very slow. ParcPlace should come up with a good method to do unification, as well as better control over garbage collection. 14) PS is faster. Personally, I trust ps better, and feel they have better scientists. I also know some of the people there, and they're nice guys! :=) I also feel better about flaming them for problems because they should be able to fix it! :=) Also, my system, Tigre Interface Builder/Tigris database would not easily run on the Digitalk series....For lack of BOSS for one. I would be the first to admit that PS looks archaic compared to say, V/MAC, but Tigre address almost all of these issues, and you can build applications in PS that look *MUCH* better than V/MAC with TIGRE. PS is a much more professional environment to develop in. The text editor also works better in PS. I also like PS compiler/debugger/browser very much, as well as having class-hierarchy browser etc.... I also think that their new windowing system will be very portable, and look forward to getting Tigre to run on it.... Summary: If you want to get your feet wet, maybe get /V on a PC. If you want to do real work, get PS. If you want beautiful applications that are highly functional, or an object-oriented database, start with PS and get Tigre. Your apps will run unmodified on PC, MAC, SUN, APOLLO, DEC, etc..... Jordan-- +===========================================================================+ + Jordan A. Bortz, Tigre Object Systems - Advanced Programming Environments + + 408-426-5308 11 Glen Canyon Road Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA + +===<ucscc!veda!jordan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>==<frobozz@well.sf.ca.us>========+
mo@messy.bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell) (05/09/90)
However, the last time I checked, ParcPlace Systems implementation was just about 10x more expensive. -Mike
idsardi@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Bill Idsardi) (05/09/90)
In article <17896@well.sf.ca.us> frobozz@well.sf.ca.us (Jordan Bortz) writes: >Well, here's my two cents worth: > 8) Digitalk is cheaper. (marginally, these days!) I thought that there was a rather substantial price difference. Am I misinformed? Could someone tell me the cost of Parc Place ST for the mac (including academic discounts if any)? Thanks. Bill Idsardi
new@udel.EDU (Darren New) (05/10/90)
In article <8344@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> idsardi@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Bill Idsardi) writes: >Could someone tell me the cost of Parc Place ST for the >mac (including academic discounts if any)? Thanks. The definitive "person" to ask is info@parcplace.com (or the obvious translation to UUCP domain). The staff there has always been helpful and prompt, usually supplying an answer to my most difficult questions within the hour. I can't talk about ST/V, but PP ST-80 has incredible customer service! They really went out of their way to make sure my demo would work at the FORTE conference last year, even to the point of allowing me to call in the serial numbers over the phone to get a temp liscence for the machines at the phone. I can't praise them enough in regard to customer support, and that is important for serious work. Last I looked, SpacStations (Sun 4's) ParcPlace ST costs $600 to universities and Sun-3's cost $300. I'm not sure I correctly remember Mac's pricing, so I won't say it. -- Darren
mo@messy.bellcore.com (Michael O'Dell) (05/10/90)
There are a large number of people for whom university pricing is a non-issue. I haven't been in a university in many years, and I certainly can't ethically buy it with company money to play with at home. therefore, many of us must pay retail.
foda@kunivv1.sci.kun.nl (O. Foda) (06/07/90)
ski2@milton.acs.washington.edu (Chris Kacoroski) writes: >In article <9314@pt.cs.cmu.edu> ns@cat.cmu.edu (Nicholas Spies) writes: >>On the subject of the price of PPS Smalltalk-80: I feel that they would be >>doing themselves (and us!) a greater service if they priced ST-80 at >>rock-bottom to assure a much larger user base, meaning better support, more >>books, etc. Better to soak a lot of people a little than vice-versa. >I feel that PPS Smalltalk-80 is reasonably priced when compared to >other professional environments available such as MPW or MS C. Plus, >you get a complete development system and not part of one. >-- >"Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are my own..." >Chris 'ski-' Kacoroski email: ski2@milton.acs.washington.edu Yes, but in contrast with all the other products you list, with Smalltalk you cannot make stand-alone applications that you can use to get your investment back. Omar Foda: foda@sci.kun.nl